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Thread: Re-building my Ketch Tonga (1960)

  1. #526
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    If both ends don't have too much angle to the wedge, perhaps the deck beam was twisted and the wedge was shaped to compensate because it was too difficult to force the beam into place. If that was the case, it will not be difficult to bond a strip of wood to the top and plane it to fit.
    Sorry Dave, with all this very unpleasant excitement concerning helpers I think I completely forgot to tell what it's about!

    What my helper and I installed here was an old deckbeam from somewhere around the centreline of the ship I had replaced but kept, because only the ends were a bit ugly but the rest in useable condition. And it was straight and in line before installing it.

    I had cut the ends to fit myself, fearing my helper would bugger it up, and it was fitting perfectly. What was missing now was the wedge to go underneath on the portside (on the starboard-side I was able to re-use everything as it was). To save time with my helper around, I just used part of the deckbeam we had cut out (the curve on top was already perfectly fitting the beam) and marked out the straight cutting-line on the underside for it to fit.

    Having a helper only makes sense if you give him jobs to do. So I thought he can't do too much damage in cutting this wedge straight on the underside, and asked him to cut it. Which he did. Then I suddenly saw him working on the top of it with the angle-grinder and the sanding-disc, was a bit puzzled about it but didn't take any further notice. Before installing the lot I checked if it all fits. And, my own fault, I only checked if the wedge follows the curve and if the underside is straight - from the front side only!!!

    We set the wedge in place, I mixed Epoxy and Epoxy with Silica as Filler, and glued the new deckbeam on both sides in place.

    The weekend after when I was checking everything, we had just ended working together, it hit me like a hammer to notice the twist. Starbordside is perfectly alright, only the portside where the new wedge had been made. And, you can't really see something like this in a photo, but the beam itself starts twisting somewhere around the centreline.

    I was already upset about a lot of other things. To find, on top of all what happened, this twisted misery was just too much. Two weeks ago I wasn't even able to only take a picture of it. That's why it took me so long till I figured myself brave enough.

    I know it's not the end of the world, but it's annoying. I will try to cut it out and make a new and proper wedge. Today I asked Albertino (the shipwright for wooden fishing-boats), explained what it's about and he's sure he's got just the right piece of timber in Peniche (where he's got his workshop) and will bring it over tomorrow for me.
    Last edited by Dody; 09-04-2018 at 06:20 PM.
    fair winds, Dody
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  2. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Argh - that's frustrating Dody but it doesn't look too hard to fix at least?
    Well, if I ignore the fact that stupid-me Epoxy-filler-glued the wedge in place you're absolutely right Chris! It's only taking the wedge out, make a new one (one that fits for a change) and install the whole lot properly on the starboard-side (portside is alright). Only hope now that I don't damage the beam. But if I cut it a bit below and sand the remaining rest off with the angle-grinder and a sanding disc this should work (I hope).

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  3. #528
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Well, if I ignore the fact that stupid-me Epoxy-filler-glued the wedge in place you're absolutely right Chris! It's only taking the wedge out, make a new one (one that fits for a change) and install the whole lot properly on the starboard-side (portside is alright). Only hope now that I don't damage the beam. But if I cut it a bit below and sand the remaining rest off with the angle-grinder and a sanding disc this should work (I hope).

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    Why not just saw along the bottom glue line, take out the twist and glue in a tapered packer?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #529
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Why not just saw along the bottom glue line, take out the twist and glue in a tapered packer?
    That's fine if you want to do things correctly.

    My slipshod, but functional approach might be to "saw along the bottom glue line, take out the twist and" fill the gap with thickened epoxy. It looks like one side is about the right height and the other is low, so, on the bright side, you are just adding material and not having to chisel out a wedge. Clamp a wax paper or plastic film lined plywood piece on both sides to hold it in position while the glop sets up and Bob's your uncle. Of course, Uncle Bob could be the guy you just fired.

  5. #530
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Why not just saw along the bottom glue line, take out the twist and glue in a tapered packer?
    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    That's fine if you want to do things correctly.

    My slipshod, but functional approach might be to "saw along the bottom glue line, take out the twist and" fill the gap with thickened epoxy. It looks like one side is about the right height and the other is low, so, on the bright side, you are just adding material and not having to chisel out a wedge. Clamp a wax paper or plastic film lined plywood piece on both sides to hold it in position while the glop sets up and Bob's your uncle. Of course, Uncle Bob could be the guy you just fired.
    Nick and Dave, great idea, thank you both soooo much! After I found out my first instant impulse was to flatten the top level and glue a batten on top - which I instantly discarded the moment I noticed that the other side is alright and realized that I with on certainty approaching reality will never be able to get the curve correct afterwards. At that moment it dawned on me that the deckbeam is alright, only the base is crooked.

    Adding a wedge-shaped piece under the base is a really elegant solution, provided I manage to produce a perfectly fitting piece with my somewhat limited skills. Making this "wedge" from thickened epoxy is taking the ease of manufacture and assembly even further!

    The bottom of my crooked wedge is not glued to the piece it's sitting on, I've only used bedding-compound (Sikaflex 291i) which should be easy to disassemble.

    The only disadvantage would be, that deckbeam and crooked wedge, once in the correct position, will kind of look weird because of the old, wrong, angle. Which I can sand smooth of course but it will get thinner. Which doesn't really matter as the base is not the same width but thinner as well. With the 2 bolts going down and the ones going across when I install the knee it shouldn't go anywhere methinks.

    I'll take it apart and see how it goes. Also, I want to have a close look at the glueline between the wedge and the deckbeam. As it happened my helper dropped the wedge the moment the epoxy-filler was already on it and we just wanted to install the whole lot. Suddenly he was super-fast and put it back in place, so fast that I couldn't even get a tiny glimpse of what happened with the glue on the top. While I was tying up the woodclamps with plastic-sheeting and scrapwood he was quick in removing whatever residue was left on the planks. It could have been a lot or it could have been hardly anything.
    fair winds, Dody
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  6. #531
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Things don't always go as you want. Of course the underside of the wedge didn't want to come off the base as easy as I thought. My Fein Multitool was more heating up the bedding compound than cutting it - I guess it hadn't cured completely yet - couldn't separate them with a knife either, so I tried my battery-powered deconstruction-saw with a longer blade. This worked pretty well, although I have to admit that I did some damage to the base. Hm, I don't like this!!! So I decided to take the wedge out as well in order to easier replace the base. My deconstruction-saw isn't very accurate and I didn't want to hurt the deckbeam. I tried cutting it with my jigsaw and this went pretty well. That's how things looked like before cleanup:

    06-IMG_9265.jpg

    07-IMG_9266.jpg

    08-IMG_9270.jpg

    The deckbeam didn't just spring back to the correct position, I had to apply some force to get him there. Don't know. Possibly it's not 100 % correct on the other side either although I used what was there before (unless my helper ... no, don't want to think about this now!).

    Instead of getting on with the job directly after, I got caught up in some paperwork I couldn't delay any longer and took me days to get done.

    Meanwhile the boat of my "helper" got craned out. As it's quite something different with A-frame-masts etc. I thought I should put up a picture. He claims he's built it himself, but honestly, he would have had to do some angled cuts in timber during the construction-process

    02-IMG_9259.jpg

    Never mind let's get on! Max still sleepy ...

    05-IMG_9264.jpg
    Last edited by Dody; 09-18-2018 at 06:56 PM.
    fair winds, Dody
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  7. #532
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Albertino organized a nice peace of Pine for me and offered to cut it to shape with the chainsaw when I've marked out how and where. Some oil on the blade

    12-IMG_9277.jpg

    and off we go

    13-IMG_9279.jpg

    14-IMG_9280.jpg

    15-IMG_9286.jpg

    He let me keep the end-piece in case I need it somewhere else. That was super fast with the chainsaw, I absolutely loved it!

    16-IMG_9288.jpg
    fair winds, Dody
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  8. #533
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    He actually wanted to clean it up with the electric planer, but I said no worries, I can do that. While still busy with the base he came over to check, and once I had the base level and square he expected me to show it to him. It got approved and it seems I'm his apprentice now :-D!

    19-IMG_9291.jpg

    Now the top. It needed to be squared and then shaped

    20-IMG_9293.jpg

    Not perfect for sure, but I'm quite happy with the result - first check how it fits

    21-IMG_9296.jpg

    other side

    22-IMG_9297.jpg

    that's how it looks like from the front

    23-IMG_9295.jpg

    Once I've finished off the side showing into the cabin (planed it down to the correct width already) I will glue the wedge to the deckbeam, replace the construction underneath and see if I can find something I can use as a lever to twist and hold the deckbeam in the correct position while I'm drilling the boltholes and install the construction underneath where it's gonna be bolted to.
    Last edited by Dody; 09-18-2018 at 04:10 PM.
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  9. #534
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    I think I've worked it out. 2 woodclamps with a long nose next to each other on the outer extremity of the deckbeam on the portside, mouth up. Like this I can attach one of the bigger-diameter broomhandles under the shafts with a seizing and they won't slip. Then I can attach a block with tackle from a deckbeam (or sidedeckbeam) in front to lever it up and keep it in place while drilling and preparing. Well, this might not be proper boatbuilding-practice, but who cares! This should work, shouldn't it?

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    Last edited by Dody; 09-18-2018 at 07:28 PM.
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  10. #535
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    I didn't even need block & tackle, was quite easy to set up and hold in place, and it's level now - though still a bit high. Now let's replace the construction underneath to get the correct spot where to start the angle upwards on the wedge (side facing inwards).



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    Last edited by Dody; 09-19-2018 at 11:04 AM.
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  11. #536
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    Just checked with a straightedge to set it to the correct height, but this is hopeless. I should never have allowed my helper to even only look at these deckbeams, certainly not touch them coz now I'm even worse off than before. Never mind. I need something to roughly get it right and sort the rest out later. From here it does look right (2nd one in the picture) so that's where I'm gonna install it!



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    Last edited by Dody; 09-19-2018 at 04:08 PM.
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  12. #537
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Hard for me to tell Dody, but it looks like you just have a flat spot in the center of that forward frame? I'd mount it so the ends are even with the one behind it and then laminate a section in the middle and reshape it to match the camber of the next frame. What a hassle though! But much like my frustrating experience with the oil filter on Petrel it will get done eventually and after that you won't have to think about it again.
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    In one of the early issues of Woodenboat there was an article about a boat builder. I can't remember his name, but the quote that comes to mind when reading about this overhaul is "Any damn fool can do it right the first time, but it takes a genius to fix it when you screw up." You have done a lot of fixing, and seem to be doing it well.

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Hard for me to tell Dody, but it looks like you just have a flat spot in the center of that forward frame? I'd mount it so the ends are even with the one behind it and then laminate a section in the middle and reshape it to match the camber of the next frame. What a hassle though! But much like my frustrating experience with the oil filter on Petrel it will get done eventually and after that you won't have to think about it again.
    Well spotted Chris! This flat spot in the centre of the first deckbeam in the picture is one of the problems I found today, caused by excessive sanding at the wrong places by my helper and getting it all wrong about my deck beeing whaleback and not a flat floor in an appartment. But this is not the deckbeam I'm talking of.

    And this is not the end of the newly found problems. Unfortunately you can't see this in the picture ... close to the end of where the deck will be going one day (stern) there are these battens between beams. Well, looking from the position where I took the picture one can see that the curve there is interrupted by spikes and lows, no way to achieve a natural flow to lay a deck on. The deckbeam after this going towards the bow is the one with the samson-post in the centre, which is not very stable at the moment as I first have to install the crosspiece underneath. Right now at this moment, without the crosspiece installed, there is a difference in height of 1 cm between port and starboard. I don't remember how many times I stopped him hitting it with the angle-grinder and the flexible sanding-disc to "work on it".

    The deckbeam I am trying to properly install at the moment on the portside is the one between the samson-post-deckbeam and the one with the dip in the centre. When I took the picture I was hoping one can see the one behind a little bit, just to ascertain the flow of the camber seems to be about right to both sides. But, honestly, I can't see it in this picture so I guess nobody else can really see something.

    Whatever I try to use as a reference is buggered up. I've got to start somewhere. And the only thing I can think of now is to concentrate on the shape of this deckbeam (2nd one) and let my feeling for balance and distances tell me if it's right or wrong. Not that it was perfect before, but all of what I'm faced with now is homemade.

    I have been checking and crosschecking and debating with me if I should lower it 1 or 2 mm (planing the base down about this much) but not much more, having another look from the place where I took the photo, and decided the camber seems to be identical in height etc. on both sides, so it must be right. Albertino (the shipwright) came over to have a look, was happy about the shape and how the wedge fits, checked, re-checked for a while and said "I think this is as close to good as is possible under the circumstances. You will have to sand the deckbeam a little to follow the flow of the deck (forward - aft), and I guess once you've done this it will be pretty alright".

    By this time it was nearly beer o'clock so I called it a day, got the tent back in place to keep the humidity out for the night and thought by myself it's a good thing sometimes to have a night to sleep over things. Also to unwind. I thought I had found all the damage my helper produced during these 4 weeks, but no, I found more today when inspecting all these deckbeams a bit closer. Clearly a mistake I made, to employ him. But honestly, if someone who claims he's built his own boat claims he can do this but the result shows he can't, can't do a paintjob, can't do heaps of other things, what could one give him to do? The more and more I think about it, the more I doubt that he actually built his boat with his own hands.
    Last edited by Dody; 09-19-2018 at 08:03 PM.
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    In one of the early issues of Woodenboat there was an article about a boat builder. I can't remember his name, but the quote that comes to mind when reading about this overhaul is "Any damn fool can do it right the first time, but it takes a genius to fix it when you screw up." You have done a lot of fixing, and seem to be doing it well.
    Awesome, thanks Dave, sounds like there's some hope for me on the horizon !
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    I had another look this morning and decided it should be a bit lower still, so I planed the base 5 mm down.

    I've tried with my proper camera with wide-angle-lens to take another picture. It's still not easy to see, but a little better than the other pic.

    1-IMG_9303.jpg

    The other thing I tried was to make a photo where the ups and downs on the before-last one (the one with the battens) are visible. Guess you need a lot of fantasy to see it

    2-IMG_9304.jpg

    While woodpreserver and, after that, a lick of primer for protection below and aft are drying I've ordered my bolts etc. for the stern. I know I've still got quite some bits to do in preparation for the deck in this area, but before laying the deck I've got to plank the stern and finish it off completely. The timber is already in the workshop but with bolts and screws, the moment they are a bit different from what everybody else needs it's always a bit complicated here.

    The sun came out an hour ago, I'll go for a bit of a sharpening-session with my chisels now. By the way, the honing-guide I was using in the beginning started to make a nice little groove in my waterstones, which I didn't like to see at all. So I gave in and got myself an MKII Honing-Guide from Veritas, awesome this piece of kit, I love it! And, coz I'm so happy with it, last week came the Narrow-Blade Head for the chisels. Got to try that now, my chisels are really in need for it after the butchering they had to endure by ... no, not gonna say any more.

    Oh and, some of our harbour dogs came over for a change of scenery and for company, they stayed the whole day. The black one, Boris, constantly laying down on the cables of my tools, of course whichever one I just wanted use. I was in stitches!

    1-IMG_9299.jpg

    2-IMG_9300.jpg

    3-IMG_9302.jpg
    Last edited by Dody; 09-20-2018 at 08:29 AM.
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    My mates of the fishing-boat Avo Ricardo have a new crewmember who is Indonesian. He kind of started to worry about the rough company etc concerning me. "But no, don't you worry, Dody is a Seaman, a Marinheiro, a proper Captain and living in a male environment all her life. Dody, can you show him pictures of your ship?" I managed to dug out some pics, and now that I found them ... here they are:




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    Last edited by Dody; 09-20-2018 at 08:26 PM.
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    And the last 2. Feels great to see them again and it's quite motivating for me 😊!



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    Last edited by Dody; 09-20-2018 at 08:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Great photos Dody! I hope you get Tonga back in the water soon to continue your journey with her.
    - Chris

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    Thanks Chris I will 😊!

    Today Flor de Felicidade (Flower of Happiness) got launched after a very extensive overhaul. Flor de Felicidade is a mussle-fishing-boat and 2 years older than Tonga (1958, Tonga 1960). Back in the element Albertino (the shipwright) went below to check everywhere. He came up "just a few tiny drips, I guess she'll take up in a few minutes". The owner, super-happy said "um Barco sem lágrimas no tenho alma" - translated it means something like a boat who's got no tears doesnt have a soul. I feel he's right! And he knows I guess, Flor de Felicidade is his 90th boat (he's got 6 at the moment).



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    Last edited by Dody; 09-21-2018 at 08:35 AM.
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  21. #546
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    It's in. Maybe overkill to use Epoxy, but as I bedded the starboard-side of this beam in Epoxy I thought it might be better to use it for this side too.



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    Just a quick practical question: I've drilled the forward hole on my samson-post, because, when the deck is on, I can use this hole to drill from inside the boat out, so I'm able to get the fitting for the front part of my cleat right. The idea being that I should manage somehow from the top to at least find this 65 mm wide profile to drill the hole aft from the top. Right now it occurred to me there might be a proper way to correctly find a second hole from the top when the deck is on. It would be much easier to drill the second hole now of course!

    Trouble is, from the second hole there is no way I could drill upwards through the deck. That's how it looks like:





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    Last edited by Dody; 10-02-2018 at 07:10 AM.
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Hey Dody, I don't have any direct experience to offer here, but a couple of things:

    1. Do you need to pre-drill it? Seems like it would be easier to finish the deck, finish drilling the forward hole, loosely mount the cleat and then drill the aft hole down from the top?

    2. If you *do* need to pre-drill the aft hole for some reason I would align it using the sampson post casting (I guess I should ask - are you using a cast part or making one?). The casting - or a pattern if you are making it - gives you the fore-and-aft distance from the forward hole. Then you would just need to note it's precise location athwartships against some reference point that will still be available after the deck is in place.

    Others may have better answers here...
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Chris, thanks for beeing there and always up to help us, awesome :-D!
    I don't need to drill the second hole now, and I'm gonna make the cleat when I'll get there - either from wood or from Inox. Wood would be nicer for my bare feet I guess when I hit it by accident.

    The thing is I hate metal-work. Even with a brand new sharp drill of the highest quality, the machine running as slow as possible, a lot of pressure, one needs a lot of patience to drill a hole. And one needs to keep dripping lubricant on the drill which of course is all over the place in the end. Steel isn't so bad, but still. And then you've got all these tiny little steel-particles which will rust - and spread rust - if you don't manage to take them away completely from the area were you've been drilling.
    When the deck is installed there will be a piece of industrial floor-rubber on top of the (steel) samson-post counterpart (so plywood and steel don't touch), on top of that the laminated plywood deck. Now let's imagine I don't drill the second hole now but drill it from the top later. The majority of the metal particles will collect between the rubber and the steel-part, and there is no way I will ever be able to get completely rid of them. They'll be happily rusting away, effect the counterpart of the samson-post, which will start rusting at one point, and there is nothing I can do about it. One day I'll have to cut it out and find someone who's willing to weld a new one in - it's got to be a tiny welder, very thin. Someone the size of Zemanel (who welded me this piece in) won't be able to do it. Well, I guess they exist somewhere. I could avoid this problem altogether if I drill now.

    But then I really need to find this hole spot-on with the first try.

    You're right, I could make kind of a drilling-template now. Even though this counterplate is a bit inclined, it's still in a 90-degree-angle to the deckbeam. And, well, at least that was the plan - how it turns out I will know later - it was meant to follow the inclination of the deck. There is unfortunately nothing of what is there on deck - be it toerail or whatever - which will be there later as a reference-point.

    Only ... hang on, I think I've got an idea. I've got to wait till the stern is planked and laminated up. Find the centre between the outsides, draw a line to the existing hole and drill the aftwards hole with it's centre on this line. Next after finishing the stern the deck will go on, so there won't be any changes in the refence-points. This might work.
    Last edited by Dody; 10-02-2018 at 05:05 PM.
    fair winds, Dody
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Your trouble getting the deck beams right feels a bit like a terrace I'm preparing for paving at home. Just a little high here? Another bucket of fill there? Scrape, it, rake it, compact it, and do it all again. Only its all my own work so I have only myself to blame. Tonga was a handsome boat in her heyday, I look forward to seeing her looking so good again. Keep at it.

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    I've never paved a terrace. Actually, I never bought a house because they don't float (sorry, this is a serious joke between my "twin-brother" Myles in Brisbane and me which keeps driving everybody mental, but both of us mean it like that, and I really never bought a house for this reason!) but this sounds very close to what I expect is waiting for me now, Phil!

    There is still this crosspiece I've got to get in at the samson-post deckbeam, so the deckbeam is stabilized before I can start with trying to get it all right. When I tried to fit it today to cut the threaded bar to length and prepare everything for installation, I found out the damn piece has changed shape and the holes don't align correctly any more. Just before that, I installed the knees on the deckbeams aft of this one, hit 3 nails which took me ages to get each hole done, broke one 8 mm drillbit, the most expensive one of course - part of which is stuck in the hole now. And I will leave it there! Cutting the threaded bar with the angle-grinder and a thin inox-disc, one of the pieces just cut to measure fell as usual, I cleaned up the thread on the complete bar and wanted to pick it up. No-where to be seen! It didn't get caught in the tarp under Tonga like all the other ones, it wasn't laying around somewhere on the planks, not down below on the concrete, not in a fold or something where my masts are laying around. Just gone! I know I'll find it one day ... possibly one of my lovely fishermen found it on the floor, picked it up and wanted to do me a big favor in putting it somewhere where it won't get lost and I for sure will find it. And probably they will tell me with a happy smile and super-proud tomorrow or the day after when I'm at the little harbor-bar to have my morning-coffee, who knows? And it doesn't matter. I only don't want it to be wedged between planks somewhere or stuck in hidden corners on my boat. There was heaps of even heavy stuff I found with dismantling, which someone accidentally had left laying around and got again accidentally built in never to be seen again. I guess they must have gone mad looking for it everywhere and not finding it !

    Thanks Phil, I will!!!
    Last edited by Dody; 10-02-2018 at 09:17 PM.
    fair winds, Dody
    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain
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  27. #552
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    ^^ Ah, I missed that the supporting piece was steel Dody. Makes more sense now. Yes, I think make a pattern, pre-drill the hole, and then locate it against a few fixed points that you will have access to later after the deck is on.
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    The magic word is triangulation. Find two spots on the boat that won't change in the future and draw two lines so that they intersect on the hole. Note the lengths and if you want the angles of the resulting triangle. Don't be to obsessed about hitting the hole exactly, you have to drill a bigger one and fill it with thickened epoxy anyway. I would drill the hole, put a stick into it and tie strings to the chainplates or the transom ends. Adjust to level, mark the strings and store away for reuse. As insurance to misplacing the strings and the drawing post the dimensions here.

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    Thanks Chris 😊, you know what? I've still got some of the 12 mm lams from the Scotch Fir in my workshop and the idea came to me to just drill an 8mm hole into one of them, loosely screw it together with the hole I made today, direct the whole lot aft, mark the centre, center it from port to starboard, and happily start to drill the second hole through this lam held in place aft. I know the devil is always in the detail, but like this, the room for error should be tiny, don't you think so?

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    Rumars, you are back, awesome! There is lots I've got to tell you about the chainplates I worked out in the meantime, but not now coz I'm long past bedtime. Great idea to save measurements right here. Sure, it might be terribly boring for others, which is not nice, but I have to admit I've got to find a better way to keep track of all these tiny slices of super-important papers flying around everywhere and getting lost. Hm ... there will be a nasty cold and wet day sometime in the future, maybe I could do something with that? We'll see 😊!

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    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Quote Originally Posted by Dody View Post
    Thanks Chris , you know what? I've still got some of the 12 mm lams from the Scotch Fir in my workshop and the idea came to me to just drill an 8mm hole into one of them, loosely screw it together with the hole I made today, direct the whole lot aft, mark the centre, center it from port to starboard, and happily start to drill the second hole through this lam held in place aft. I know the devil is always in the detail, but like this, the room for error should be tiny, don't you think so?

    Sent from my SM-G900FD using Tapatalk
    That's pretty much what I was thinking. Only thing to watch out is that "center" from port to starboard based on your current reference point needs to be the same as center after the deck is laid. Yes, it *should* be, but just something to think about. Also if you do it that way don't lose your template!
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Dody, I'm responding to your comment on the Petrel thread regarding Tonga and building techniques here so it won't get lost in the frame sistering discussion other there. I do think you should get the McIntosh book. It's the clearest reference I know of on how all the parts of a wooden boat go together. But I'd also say that in many ways Tonga was not built using traditional techniques. You won't find any reference telling you about nailing into the end of the deck beams from the outboard side of the shelf/carlin for example, because that's not the way it's typically done. So you might just need to work through those questions and get to know how Tonga was built rather than how a typical wooden boat was built.
    - Chris

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    For all those who don't happen to follow the Petrel-Thread (Restoration of the BC Salmon Troller "Petrel"), Chris was suggesting that someone should write a book for new owners of wooden boats to help them identify possible problems, how to deal with them in a proper manner to avoid any further damage in the future, and how to keep their wooden boats happy (it starts with post 3387 on this page: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...el-quot/page97). I suggested to add a section about how certain parts are joined together, so it's easier for people to keep the destruction-part at bay.

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Dody, I'm responding to your comment on the Petrel thread regarding Tonga and building techniques here so it won't get lost in the frame sistering discussion other there. I do think you should get the McIntosh book. It's the clearest reference I know of on how all the parts of a wooden boat go together. But I'd also say that in many ways Tonga was not built using traditional techniques. You won't find any reference telling you about nailing into the end of the deck beams from the outboard side of the shelf/carlin for example, because that's not the way it's typically done. So you might just need to work through those questions and get to know how Tonga was built rather than how a typical wooden boat was built.
    Thanks Chris, I'm gonna order this book right away tomorrow morning.

    You are perfectly right, there was a lot of fantasy and inventions involved in the building of Tonga, which is definitely not "normal" boatbuilding-practise. The guy who built her had many wooden boats before, and it's impossible for me to know if he invented his solutions to overcome problems he noticed during all these years, or if he simply didn't know any better and solved things in his own ways. Certain things turned out to be pretty clever and inventive.

    Tonga and I have been sailing together for 17 years, and she has teached me to find my own ways with a lot of things. Concerning maintenance I had managed to sort out any obstacles, changed and replaced systems, electricity and what not, to have everything what I consider perfectly reliable, adapted to all my needs and perfectly working without the slightest hiccup.

    But there is a step, quite a big one actually, between upkeep, maintenance, an re-building a boat. Upkeep is to keep all the systems capable to run smoothly. Maintenance is - in my opinion - upkeep plus changing and adapting systems to one's personal needs and have everything in the best possible order and shipshape to be able to rely on it whatever the weather or the sea or or happens to throw at us.

    And now comes the big step: re-building a boat that was not built in a conventional manner. In the beginning, I have to admit, I was a bit scared if I would be capable to get it all together again, especially as I was a complete novice as far as woodworking was concerned. I'm still far from good, but I'm learning every day a bit more and, to be honest, I do like the challenge. And I like to invent solutions. Still, I would like these solutions to be as close to common boatbuilding-practice as possible. There is many ways to skin a cat they say ...

    I would really enjoy to continue the discussion about this maintenance-book on the Tonga-thread. But actually, it was your idea and there is heaps more people taking a serious part in your thread then in mine. Wouldn't it be a shame, if any additional and important input would get kind of lost only because the discussion about the subject continues somewhere else, and the ones who might be interested in actually writing this book don't happen to come across it?
    Last edited by Dody; 10-05-2018 at 06:13 AM.
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  34. #559
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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Dody if you read german there are two books that might help you: Curt W. Eichler, Holzbootsbau and Adolf Brix, Bootsbau. That's aprox. 800 pages of ilustrated traditional building techniques for about 50 euros, available new. The Brix is the 1929 edition reprinted, Eichlers first edition is sometimes in the early 60's. That reflects the infos available to the original builder pretty acurrately, and they will also explain most if not all of your questions. They are considered the standard literature in german.

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    Default Re: Wood - Plywood - Epoxy bond, re-building my ketch Tonga

    Hi Dody;
    been following with interest since the beginning, but I've not had any potential input I didnt see from others, so remain quiet. Its a small thing regarding your samson post arrangement, and locating the second hole: You can make the holes in the steel oversized to allow for the inevetable alignment problem, and use stout washers when installing. I dont think in that situation an oversized (by a little bit...2-3mm?, maybe more would be ok?) hole in the steel will compromise strength. Sending you the best from the sweltering tropics, carry on!

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