Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 39

Thread: Rigging resources?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Bullock's Cove RI
    Posts
    41

    Default Rigging resources?

    One of many projects on H28 Holiday this winter, is inspection, maintenance, and repair of the rigging. There are several details of concern, and I would like to become more educated before starting DIY improvements, or hiring a professional. I have a "feel" for the strength of metals, and can figure out basic engineering, but a practical reference guide would be most helpful.

    The photo below was the most surprising find; it is the (rarely used) forestay and working jib (staysail?) halyard. While I am uncomfortable with this setup, I find myself scratching my head as to whether it is "good enough", and how to improve things. What if I want to rely on this fitting for a heavy-weather storm jib?

    Is there a standard book or resource for rigging?

    Thanks
    Attached Images Attached Images

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lynden, Wa
    Posts
    3,602

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Brion Toss is one of the experts in the field of modern rigging. You'd be hard pressed to go wrong with his advice.


    Amazon
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
    Posts
    2,652

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Yes, The Rigger's Apprentice will be most helpful.

    Pretty easy math to determine the strength of that tang. The wood screws attaching it to the mast are a more difficult problem.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    4,214

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    While it's pretty common to through drill steel aluminum and not lose too much structural rigidity it's not something recommended on wooden spars and masts, this is why you will often see wrap-around or band type attachment of high stress applications like main sheet, boom vang, shrouds, etc
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    47,329

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Quote Originally Posted by SalsDad View Post
    One of many projects on H28 Holiday this winter, is inspection, maintenance, and repair of the rigging.
    Most, if not all of the H28 mast tangs are drawn in L Francis book "Sensible Cruising Designs. I would start there for the definitive answer.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    31,698

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Not based on anything scientific, but comparing the inner doubled-up tang & the outer single one (& the extension) - the outer looks pretty skimpy to me. Also, the hole for the pin looks rather big & shouldn't there also be a washer under the cotter pin?

    We can't see the whole attachment to the mast, but I resume there are tangs leading up to give a spot for multiple screws/bolts?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Aquitaine
    Posts
    1,110

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    I expect Jay will be along soon. He certainly knows a lot about H28s
    Meanwhile, I would also reccommend The Rigger's Apprentice.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    In L Francis Herrschoff's Sensible Cruising Designs, he shows all of the criteria for rigging and halyard sizes. If you want a full size drawing you can send to Mystic plans Dept for such drawings as you need. Francis specified phosphor bronze for his tangs but phospor is no longer sold in soft, medium and hard as it was when the H28 was designed and is now only sold in hard which, will crack on a tight bend. You are better off using Everdure of the same thickness which is what we use on "Bright Star". Stainless can also be used but will weep rust after a few years so you are better off with overdure. I would choose to go with the same diameter line for halyards as it will be more comfortable to deal with. Here is a running back stay set up we added to our H28 which works very well to keep the jib stay from sagging in heavy winds and also keeps the mast in column.
    Jay

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    48,300

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    I agree with Garret. Mickey Mouse as is.

    The length of that tang is a good hint that the stay should go on the stronger inner tang. Toss the extension plate and bush the pin as needed for a clean fit.

    It's not great but the block could be hung from the outer tang. It's long enough that the body will be atop the stay/tang connection and the hoist and fall can pass on either side. Just replace the shackle with a double jaw toggle of appropriate size.



    As you read Toss's book and look at rigs you will see that there's good standardization such that the right size pin fits whatever fitting all nice and harmonious.

    Edited to add: Wish I'd seen Jay's post. That makes sense of the system. The only change I'd make would be to use a twist shackle on the halyard block so the block is flat to the mast.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    48,300

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Most designers specify different stay diameters for different parts to the rig. I've now forgotten how many different diameters there were for Megs 12 stays, at least 5. To save money by buying in volume I found a way to reduce this to just two sizes of stay, resulting in a small amount of added weight aloft. If you have a pro do it, the loft should have plenty of cable in stock so no problem.

    I find exact measurements hard to make so when I've had to rerig - all of my schooner Goblin, several other friends' boats, and new rigging with Meg, I measure each stay about 6" long, hang the stays on the mast before stepping, and then with everything hanging I cut to fit with each turnbuckle at max extension. One needs to know how much the StayLoc or Norseman eye or fork adds. This works only with keel stepped masts.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Sorry to have to argue here but the best way is to place the block on the inner portion of the tang as seen in #8 as the halyard will foul or jamb if placed on the outer. Notice the extended length we put on the block portion of the two piece tang. The jib stay pin goes through both the inner and outer strap of the tang which is how LFH designed it. Note that the block support is doubled as is the jib stay portion. There is no need to alter the H28 rig as L. Francis designed it except for the running backs that we added as they do help keep the stick from bending. When the halyard is in place, the block does not touch the mast.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 01-08-2020 at 01:51 PM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    48,300

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    As I evidently did not make sufficiently clear in #10, Jay's right. Something about the photo in the OP caused me to veer well off course.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    SW Washington/ At Sea
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Most, if not all of the H28 mast tangs are drawn in L Francis book "Sensible Cruising Designs. I would start there for the definitive answer.
    here is a picture of said page:


  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Walney, near Cumbria UK
    Posts
    47,329

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Quote Originally Posted by Powerwagon View Post
    here is a picture of said page:

    There are at least two more.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
    The weakness of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Powerwagon, Sorry but that picture appears to be inverted; and is too faint and too small to read! That is also the wrong drawing! What you want is page 56 in Sensible Cruising Designs.
    The information is clearly shown in an inset drawing of the jib stay tang set up on that page. The only difference in "Bright Star's" set up is the extra set of tangs for the running backstays. They have delrin sheives to support the Dymeena cordage of the running backs. The H28 drawings are subtle as they only show the halyard snatch blocks in the rigging drawing that shows the halyards needed. The blocks are there but no comment is made of them. I have offered to share my own drawings of what we did with those that want them. So far I have only one request and I am meeting a design dead line at present which is taking up most of my time except for some comments on our forum.
    L. Francis did mention running backs on his sloop rig for the H28 which is not often seen as he drew it. It is my own opinion that the boat can fly much better with the sloop mast but still rigged as a ketch with the original mizzen in the boat. As I have mentioned before, in areas where light airs are found, the extra aspect ratio of sloop main keeps the H28 moving up wind in light airs. An extra set of reef points should be added though for those times when the wind pipes up a bit! The hull is stiff and can carry the extra sail easily!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 01-09-2020 at 02:54 PM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Seen before but Here again, is the snatch block set up that makes raising sail very easy for my wife to handle if we are sailing alone.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?


  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    For the sake of protecting the varnish I later added leather boots to the blocks which are very effective in protecting the masts. A pattern of same is included with the drawings. The H28 sails require only a mechanical assist on the last couple of feet of snugging up of he sails.
    This set up eliminates the need of bulky and expensive halyard winches.
    Jay

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    SW Washington/ At Sea
    Posts
    347

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Sorry it’s upside down...that’s odd! It said H28 and seemed to show a similar setup as the first picture. The pic is a thumbnail so if you click on it it will open up a larger version via the photo host. I’m away from home but I’ll take a few more shots when I get back.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    48,300

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Had a rig like that on the old Narasketuck. Fast and easy. I like the eye over post for attaching the halyard.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Yes Ian I have used that set up for jig ta'kles on gaff riggers too. This set up for the H28 does give a three to one pull when rigged. Kind of an ersatz gun or watch ta'kle.
    Jay

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    Bullock's Cove RI
    Posts
    41

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Thanks, all! I got my copy of "Rigger's Apprentice", blew up the detail drawings and Rigging and Block List from "Sensible Cruising Designs", and got to work inventorying the rig.

    To sum up the standing rigging, the masthead fittings have been replaced with welded stainless caps, spreader and forestay tangs appear original, wire stays appear sound to my eye. But it looks like the last time the mast went up, it was rigged in a hurry, without a trip to the chandler. Used cotter pins, undersized and galvanized shackles, that forestay kluge (that clevis pin is a size small, and goes through only one of the three tangs. Good thing I tried out the working jib only once, on a light day!)

    Also, the design calls for a 3/16 upper shroud, and 5/16 lower (spreaders are pretty high up), both are now 1/4". Likewise, inner (removable) forestay is sized down, Genoa forestay to the bowsprit much larger. But I haven't disassembled the roller furling for a full inspection yet.

    Almost all the tang-to-wood screws appear to be sound, and I am VERY hesitant to remove for inspection! Any advice?
    3 Masthead.jpg

    41 Spreader.jpg
    Jay, I love the snatch blocks, but Holiday's main halyards feed down through fairleads. As you can see, one of them is mis-placed, note the knotted halyard at the sharp spreader bracket! Any suggestion for a fairlead attached to this little knifeblade?

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Well Sal's Dad,
    Hopefully the screws that are holding in the wood were dipped in bee's wax prior to installation! There may come a time when you wish to varnish the entire spar which, will require removal of all of the tang fittings. So, unless you have any movement of the attachments that should be solid, I am prone to guess they are as they should be, solid! Only an on the site inspection, such as you have now, can give the best idea of how things are and that is the best you can do without taking it all apart. That little knife blade tang is a Herreshoff style fitting that is designed to support a self aligning swinging spreader such as in the picture below. The shot of the mast head shows the split standing main backstay fitting that are connected by chain shackles. Normally I would splice the wire but it is one by nineteen and I was in a hurry, hence the Nico press splice. What I do see on your mast is a lot of unneccesary weight and windage aloft in the extended bolt ends that could be cut off with either a good amount to Lock Tight red sealant and or a drilled nut with a seizing wire or split cotter key. Those upper double tang nuts could be reduced in weight and windage as well. Also, that galvanized shackle is no stronger than the SS one it is attached to so you might want to replace it with one of SS the size of the inner one. Or, even better, use a SS chain shackle if more length as needed to clear the sides of the masthead fitting. What you think are undersized clevis pins may not be so. Bronze clevis pins should be used, even with stainless tangs in order to not elongate or enlarge the tang holes. It this is so, you are better off going to the next size by using a reamer to enlarge the ovelated hole to being round again. Do you have split sanding backstays or a boom lift that requires a big shackle like that one? You also might want to clean up those halyard splices with ones that offer a taper and no need for the rigging tape! While that buntline hitch on the main halyard works, you might replace it with a full length halyard that won't be prone to hang up on a dark night when you are taking in a reef!
    I hope this casual comment will be of some use to you!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 01-14-2020 at 02:03 PM.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Seizing wire was added to the chain shackles later. The spring stay wire would have been better off spliced but I was in a hurry to get done hence the Nico press splice.
    Jay

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ronneby, Blekinge, Sweden
    Posts
    968

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Jay, I could be wrong but it looks like not a normal 6-strand wire, but a ... uh, 1-strand wire for lack of better words.
    How would you splice that?

    /Mats

    I'm so educated. Computer engineer, boat builder, rigger, cabinet maker. I could add sail maker and rope maker, but it would be a strech to say I'm an expert there.
    Yet I know nothing.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ronneby, Blekinge, Sweden
    Posts
    968

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    To be clear, I'm not trying to be smart, I'm just curious cause I've been taught that that kind of wire rope cannot be spliced.

    /Mats

    I'm so educated. Computer engineer, boat builder, rigger, cabinet maker. I could add sail maker and rope maker, but it would be a strech to say I'm an expert there.
    Yet I know nothing.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    The wire is one by nineteen Mats. It is stiff wire to splice without a proper rigging vise to clamp and hold the tight bend and requires taking out the core on a taper as well. The taper takes up time plus the added parceling with tape plus serving and painting to make it ship shape. I like seven by seven much better for splicing stays and shrouds but it is often hard to get here.
    We had a deadline to meet for stepping the masts on a Friday afternoon. Hence the Nico press which while not pretty did the job.
    By the way, did you know my mother's family was from Falkenberg?
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 01-15-2020 at 03:38 PM.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Ronneby, Blekinge, Sweden
    Posts
    968

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    So you splice every thread by itself? Method similar to Liverpool or Crane? Do you know of an explanation online?
    Sorry for the Spanish Inquisition...
    Yes, I believe you've told about your ancestry before :-)

    /Mats

    I'm so educated. Computer engineer, boat builder, rigger, cabinet maker. I could add sail maker and rope maker, but it would be a strech to say I'm an expert there.
    Yet I know nothing.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    4,214

    Default

    How about a better picture of the whole boat rig as it was?


    https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/h-28-herreshoff
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 01-14-2020 at 06:03 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Wire splicing takes up a bit of time and that is why I did not do the one we are talking about. There are several ways to splice wire and all of which take up time as well as poke your fingers if you are not carefull. I learned to splice wire from another Swede, John Pearson. John came around the horn on on the "Parmir" that was one of the last sailing grain ships. He was the head of the rigging shop at Lido Ship Yard when I was there. I learned a lot for him! Before he passed on John gave me his book of sea chanteys and also his copy of Bowditch. It is because of John that I went into business with Newport Rigging. We had a Fen rotary swaging machine and did a lot of work with Cal Boats during the seventies. Funny how you meet people of value in the most unusual ways. If you wish to learn to splice wire, there are several good examples including the Liverpool Splice, that Mat referred to, to be found in the Encyclopedia of Knots by John Hensel. Today, we have new forms of cordage available that are as strong or stronger than steel wire, Dymeena, which may entirely eliminate the need to use wire for rigging boats.
    Jay

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Wire splicing takes up a bit of time and that is why I did not do the one we are talking about. There are several ways to splice wire and all of which take up time as well as poke your fingers if you are not carefull. I learned to splice wire from another Swede, John Pearson. John came around the horn on on the "Parmir" that was one of the last sailing grain ships. He was the head of the rigging shop at Lido Ship Yard when I was there. I learned a lot for him! Before he passed on John gave me his book of sea chanteys and also his copy of Bowditch. It is because of John that I went into business with Newport Rigging. We had a Fen rotary swaging machine and did a lot of work with Cal Boats during the seventies. Funny how you meet people of value in the most unusual ways. If you wish to learn to splice wire, there are several good examples including the Liverpool Splice, that Mat referred to, to be found in the Encyclopedia of Knots by John Hensel. Today, we have new forms of cordage available that are as strong or stronger than steel wire, Dymeena, which may entirely eliminate the need to use wire for rigging boats.
    Jay

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?


  33. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    That upper portion proved to have a crack in it which forced us to build a new splice to the upper section of the main mast.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    It was pretty nasty! Jay

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    13,544

    Default Re: Rigging resources?

    Here is what it looks like now. Straight!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •