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Thread: marijuana as a gateway drug

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    Default marijuana as a gateway drug

    Holy F****** S***! Reefer Madness!

    States that have legalized marijuana use, either recreational or for medical use, have seen an across the board drop in deaths as result of heroin or opiate use. Seems to indicate that folks are backing off the use of harder drugs in order to use marijuana instead.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Well now, there's a surprise.
    Someday, I'm going to settle down and be a grumpy old man.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    If that's the gateway ..... here's my ticket ..... it's a general admission ticket.... I'm not allowed into the heroin or opiate seats.
    Skip

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Alcohol is the real gateway drug to all other drugs.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.76d92967de27



    The real ‘gateway drug’ is 100% legal

    By Christopher Ingraham January 6, 2016

    You may have heard that marijuana is a gateway drug. Republican presidential candidate Chris Christie makes this argument seemingly every chance he gets. Anti-drug groups often make similar claims.

    The evidence seems convincing enough at first blush: studies show that 99 percent of illicit drug users tried marijuana before they did any other drugs. But on its own, this line of thinking actually is pretty tenuous: we could also safely assume that 99 percent of illicit drug users also tried coffee, or soda, or chocolate milk before moving on to stronger substances.

    New research out this month in the Journal of School Health could shed some light on this question. A team of researchers from Texas A&M and the University of Florida examined data from from 2,800 U.S. 12th graders interviewed for the Monitoring the Future study, an annual federal survey of teen drug use. They wanted to establish which substances teens typically used first.

    They give away their findings in the title of their paper: "Prioritizing Alcohol Prevention: Establishing Alcohol as the Gateway Drug and Linking Age of First Drink With Illicit Drug Use." They found that "the vast majority of respondents reported using alcohol prior to either tobacco or marijuana initiation."

    Not only that, but of those three main substances -- alcohol, tobacco and marijuana -- kids were the least likely to start using pot before the others.

    "Alcohol was the most widely used substance among respondents, initiated earliest, and also the first substance most commonly used in the progression of substance use," the researchers concluded.

    It's not clear to what degree, if any, this reflects greater availability of alcohol. Researchers typically see marijuana as in the same general universe of availability as alcohol and tobacco, simply because use of those three are so widespread compared to other substances. In fact 12th graders now are more likely to use marijuana than tobacco, despite one being legal and the other not. Jonathan Caulkins of Carnegie Mellon University told me last month that perceived availability of marijuana, as measured in the Monitoring the Future studies, has been at a high level for 20 years.But we're still playing a game of "which drug came first" here. The researchers go on to argue that the question of which drugs kids start with is a lot less important than the question of how early they start using. "Overall, early onset substance initiation, whether that is alcohol, tobacco, or other drugs, exerts a powerful influence over future health risk behaviors," they write.

    For starters, they found that the earlier kids started using alcohol, the more likely they were to go on to try other drugs. Kids who had their first drink in 6th or 7th grade went on to try an average nearly two illicit substances later. By contrast, kids who waited until 12th grade to drink had only tried an average of 0.4 substances.

    They also found that adolescents who drank at a young age went on to use illicit drugs more frequently than than those who waited. They didn't examine marijuana or tobacco similarly, because the numbers of kids starting with those drugs were so relatively low.

    To the extent that there is a gateway drug, then, it's alcohol. But the notion of a "gateway" is less important, in this study, than the question of when kids take that first step on the path of substance use.

    Keep in mind, though, that these questions were asked of 12th graders. People who started drinking in 12th grade didn't have as much time before the survey was administered to try other substances. If you asked similar questions of people in their late 20s, for instance, you'd probably find that some of those late starters still went on to try other drugs in college.

    The other big caveat here is that, as the researchers stress, this is just an observational study that's unable to tease out coincidence from causality. It's entirely possible that kids who drink early are naturally predisposed to try other drugs, due to factors invisible to this particular study -- genetics, home environment, etc. The most likely scenario is that the causality works both ways: drinking early makes kids more likely to try other drugs, and kids inclined to try other drugs are also predisposed to experiment with alcohol early.

    In the past, Christie has argued that legalizing marijuana would lead to more teen drug use, and that taxes generated from marijuana sales amounted to "blood money."
    "I'm not going to put the lives of children and citizens at risk to put a little more money into the state coffers, at least not on my watch," he said in March.

    But if taxes on marijuana amount to "blood money," Christie so far has had no qualms with accepting taxes on the sales of alcohol. In 2013, he signed a bill expanding the state's production of hard liquor. The bill allows distillers to produce 640 gallons of hard spirits per year, provided they pay a $938 licensing fee.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Does chocolate count?

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    I never set foot on a wood boat until after I injected my first weedle bongo.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    https://www.drugabuse.gov/publicatio...a-gateway-drug

    https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...a-gateway-drug

    https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/css...ana-in-schools

    I looked for a recent report I read out of Colorado, from their Governors Advisory Board; the results surprised me, showing higher use of other, 'harder' drugs. Apparently some of their towns have been harder hit, than others.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    It's a gateway in the same sense that drinking water leads to drinking of demon rum...

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    It's a gateway in the same sense that drinking water leads to drinking of demon rum...
    It's all downhill after the first glass of milk.
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Does anyone think our Attorney General will lighten up on his anti-pot stance? I don't.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Does anyone think our Attorney General will lighten up on his anti-pot stance? I don't.
    Surely you jest. Besides - he can't be bothered with facts!
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    It's all downhill after the first glass of milk.
    Then chocolate milk, then Dr. Pepper, then the hard stuff - Twinkies, Ding Dongs, Cheetos, and the end is near. RIP.
    "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    You guys seen this ?
    Stupid funny..
    https://www.facebook.com/christiansa...drugsofficial/
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 06-19-2017 at 08:58 PM.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug


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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Nope. Good weed make gateways hard to operate.

    The gateway is the lie that weed is in the same league as crack and coke and meth and heroin and pills.

    Weed may not be benign, but alcohol destroys more lives than weed, and it's legal. I tend to think weed is more innocuous than booze.

    Anyone ever hear of a guy getting super high on weed and beating his wife and kid?

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post

    Weed may not be benign, but alcohol destroys more lives than weed

    Anyone ever hear of a guy getting super high on weed and beating his wife and kid?
    Stay away from that glass of milk...

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Holy F****** S***! Reefer Madness!

    States that have legalized marijuana use, either recreational or for medical use, have seen an across the board drop in deaths as result of heroin or opiate use. Seems to indicate that folks are backing off the use of harder drugs in order to use marijuana instead.
    Nice!

    We just need better tests... equivalent to a breathalyzer for alcohol. It's no good that they only know you smoked it within the last 30 days. We need a test that says if you're still high or not.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    No such thing as a gateway drug of any kind.

    The people who sustain drug habits, especially on hard drugs, over long periods have almost all suffered a cataclysmic event in their life, that they didn't have the personal resources to cope with.
    A friend of mine who works with long term addicts gave me one example of a 40 year old who'd been using H since he was a young teenager. His mum died when he was 12 or 13, and his Dad couldn't cope. His Dad went out and bought H and injected him. He'd been on H ever since. He is a kid who experienced a major traumatic event and didn't have the ability or opportunity to get through it and continues to suffer the consequences.

    It's not drugs or alcohol that turn you to drugs and alcohol, its life.

    Banning pot doesn't reduce drug use, support the weak, the poor, the needy, the disadvantaged, especially in times of crisis. But of course its hard to make that case heard AND understood.

    legalise pot and every other drug;

    https://news.vice.com/article/ungass...weed-to-heroin

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

    Less, futile, spending of money on a war on drugs and redirect it to helping drug addicts and fighting the causes.
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    ...Banning pot doesn't reduce drug use, support the weak, the poor, the needy, the disadvantaged, especially in times of crisis. But of course its hard to make that case heard AND understood.

    legalise pot and every other drug;

    https://news.vice.com/article/ungass...weed-to-heroin

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal

    Less, futile, spending of money on a war on drugs and redirect it to helping drug addicts and fighting the causes.
    But there's so much money to be made in the war on drugs! No way those upstanding folks making all the equipment for the war are gonna let their politicians end the gravy train.
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Paul, do you have a link supporting your assertion in the OP?

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    If only our government would pay attention to facts.

    I have always believed readily available, legal marijuana would not lead to illegal drug use. I suspect if one seeks illegal pot, but can only find something else, he's tempted to try the something else.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    My question: Why do people still think making something illegal makes it stop happening?
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    ..like gun violence?

    or abortion?

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    My question: Why do people still think making something illegal makes it stop happening?
    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    ..like gun violence?

    or abortion?
    Or prohibition?
    Or Tax Evasion?

    Hello???

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    Paul, do you have a link supporting your assertion in the OP?
    Here's one dealing specifically with medical marijuana and its effects on opioid overdose mortality, and part of the summary from the peer-reviewed study. This study's been cited by a number of popular news media recently.
    Results Three states (California, Oregon, and Washington) had medical cannabis laws effective prior to 1999. Ten states (Alaska, Colorado, Hawaii, Maine, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Rhode Island, and Vermont) enacted medical cannabis laws between 1999 and 2010. States with medical cannabis laws had a 24.8% lower mean annual opioid overdose mortality rate (95% CI, −37.5% to −9.5%; P = .003) compared with states without medical cannabis laws. Examination of the association between medical cannabis laws and opioid analgesic overdose mortality in each year after implementation of the law showed that such laws were associated with a lower rate of overdose mortality that generally strengthened over time: year 1 (−19.9%; 95% CI, −30.6% to −7.7%; P = .002), year 2 (−25.2%; 95% CI, −40.6% to −5.9%; P = .01), year 3 (−23.6%; 95% CI, −41.1% to −1.0%; P = .04), year 4 (−20.2%; 95% CI, −33.6% to −4.0%; P = .02), year 5 (−33.7%; 95% CI, −50.9% to −10.4%; P = .008), and year 6 (−33.3%; 95% CI, −44.7% to −19.6%; P < .001). In secondary analyses, the findings remained similar.
    Conclusions and Relevance Medical cannabis laws are associated with significantly lower state-level opioid overdose mortality rates. Further investigation is required to determine how medical cannabis laws may interact with policies aimed at preventing opioid analgesic overdose.
    Here's another, again dealing with the impact of medical cannabis availability and opioid use. It's behind a paywall, but the final sentence of the abstract is compelling:
    Our findings suggest that providing broader access to medical marijuana may have the potential benefit of reducing abuse of highly addictive painkillers.
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    I cant say whether pot is a gateway drug or not, though there are organizations who that state that it is.
    https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...a-gateway-drug

    What I can say, is that the people who first sold me pot, when I was 12, were the same people who sold me, or connected me with, the people who sold hashish, LSD, and cocaine. I can't say whether I would have sought those substances out had they not been so readily available by people I already knew and/ or trusted by association. But they were readily available due to the people I knew from marijuana purchases.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    I cant say whether pot is a gateway drug or not, though there are organizations who that state that it is.
    https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...a-gateway-drug

    What I can say, is that the people who first sold me pot, when I was 12, were the same people who sold me, or connected me with, the people who sold hashish, LSD, and cocaine. I can't say whether I would have sought those substances out had they not been so readily available by people I already knew and/ or trusted by association. But they were readily available due to the people I knew from marijuana purchases.

    Kevin
    Good link, and a much more relevant argument than the OP or TomF's post with regards to marijuana being a gateway drug. The fact that opiate overdose deaths decrease in states with medical or legal marijuana may very well be an argument in favor of expanding those laws. But it as absolutely nothing to do with marijuana being a gateway drug or not. To determine that, one needs to look at substance abuse users and see how they got started. In the past, the vase majority cocaine or heroin users did start out with marijuana. For heroin, that is now changing, as most of the young users have started out with prescription pain killers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Good link, and a much more relevant argument than the OP or TomF's post with regards to marijuana being a gateway drug. The fact that opiate overdose deaths decrease in states with medical or legal marijuana may very well be an argument in favor of expanding those laws. But it as absolutely nothing to do with marijuana being a gateway drug or not. To determine that, one needs to look at substance abuse users and see how they got started. In the past, the vase majority cocaine or heroin users did start out with marijuana. For heroin, that is now changing, as most of the young users have started out with prescription pain killers.
    the thread title was supposed to be ironical
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    the thread title was supposed to be ironical
    Everyone else thought you were making an argument about it being a gateway drug. So I will leave my post as is.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    What I can say, is that the people who first sold me pot, when I was 12, were the same people who sold me, or connected me with, the people who sold hashish, LSD, and cocaine.
    And if your dad had been buying legal pot from the pot store, you would never have met those people.

    Pot may be a gateway to illegal drugs, as quoted above, but it seems to be a gateway into a social class rather than a physical gateway. The poiint of legalization is to get pot away from that end of society.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Everyone else thought you were making an argument about it being a gateway drug. So I will leave my post as is.
    That's fine. The point of the thread is that legalizing marijuana is leading to a reduction in the use of opiates.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    My original post wasn't intended to advance my own opinion about pot as a "gateway" or not, just to provide recent peer-reviewed references which support the notion that access to medical cannabis reduces the incidence of opioid mortality.

    My opinion, though, is that tobacco used to be the most common "gateway," fairly swiftly followed by alcohol. The "gateway" effect was a habituation to using a substance for mood-altering, and also to sourcing the substances through the underground market (at introduction, most such users are minors, eh?). Nowadays, many skip the tobacco step and go straight to booze.

    As Kevin said above, an impact of sourcing the substances through an illegal economy is that other products are offered too - your source may be out of Jack Daniels tonight, but has some codeine syrup that "fell off a truck." Or pot. Or cocaine. Or etc. What's initially habituated through the gateway is purchasing from a supplier of illegal substances - and one seems a whole lot like another, for a while.

    I think that a lot of opioid addiction will probably be avoided if medical pot becomes more normalized for ongoing pain treatment. Many heroin addicts were never addicts till they got prescribed too many oxy or etc. I also think that legalized recreational cannabis use will probably spike use among the general population, but depress market shares for various other illegal drugs. As ever, the teen and young adult population will continue to be the heavier users/experimenters with anything, but they'll likely trend towards legally produced (hence quality controlled) for the same reasons that more people of any age buy commercially produced spirits than moonshine. My son's peers are already trending that way.
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    We got Paul to spell colour, this next one is more difficult...
    Getaway.
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    My original post wasn't intended to advance my own opinion about pot as a "gateway" or not, just to provide recent peer-reviewed references which support the notion that access to medical cannabis reduces the incidence of opioid mortality.

    My opinion, though, is that tobacco used to be the most common "gateway," fairly swiftly followed by alcohol. The "gateway" effect was a habituation to using a substance for mood-altering, and also to sourcing the substances through the underground market (at introduction, most such users are minors, eh?). Nowadays, many skip the tobacco step and go straight to booze.

    As Kevin said above, an impact of sourcing the substances through an illegal economy is that other products are offered too - your source may be out of Jack Daniels tonight, but has some codeine syrup that "fell off a truck." Or pot. Or cocaine. Or etc. What's initially habituated through the gateway is purchasing from a supplier of illegal substances - and one seems a whole lot like another, for a while.

    I think that a lot of opioid addiction will probably be avoided if medical pot becomes more normalized for ongoing pain treatment. Many heroin addicts were never addicts till they got prescribed too many oxy or etc. I also think that legalized recreational cannabis use will probably spike use among the general population, but depress market shares for various other illegal drugs. As ever, the teen and young adult population will continue to be the heavier users/experimenters with anything, but they'll likely trend towards legally produced (hence quality controlled) for the same reasons that more people of any age buy commercially produced spirits than moonshine. My son's peers are already trending that way.
    Compelling, but I don't believe 'every study' confirms that. At least in Colorado, they reported more opiate overdoses, from the Governors task force report. I'll see if I can track down a link. So far, no joy.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    A lot of the opioid overdoses these days, of course, are fentanyl or carfentalyl accidents - even when people think that what they're buying on the street is a diverted-to-black-market Percocet etc. An increase in overdoses from this class of drug might just be noting the increased fatal adulteration of the street drug. I dunno.
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