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Thread: marijuana as a gateway drug

  1. #36
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    And if your dad had been buying legal pot from the pot store, you would never have met those people.
    First of all, I never mentioned my Dad: He did not supply me with pot.

    Second, kids today, in states where pot is legal for sale to adults, are still smoking pot--therefore it is accessible to them whether sale is legal or illegal. I would think I would have been offered pot by the same people who today sell ( or give or share with) pot to minors in states where sale to adults is legal.

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  2. #37
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    I think you've got it right, Kevin. In my little town anyway, most "recreational" pot bought/sold isn't grown by "criminals" anymore. The market's shifted to favour the quality-controlled and known-quantity products which are grown, packaged and sold legally, but then shipped and re-sold where it isn't.

    A couple of years ago for a Sociology class, the lad did some original research into alcohol use by underage kids in his high school. The hypothesis was that what a kid drank would be a proxy for social identity - the "country boys" would be drinking lots of cheap beer, the hipsters would be playing with snobby liquor brands or craft beer, the preppy set would be drinking coolers, or maybe even wine. Just like the marketing to adults.

    Didn't work out that way - underage drinkers might aspire to such stuff, but simply drank what they could get their hands on. They might want small-still Bourbon or popsicle flavoured coolers or craft beer, but they'd settle for anything with alcohol. Didn't start to use alcohol type as a social identity marker 'till they were old enough to buy it themselves. And at this stage, the % of the active ingredient itself was the prime attraction.

    We'll see the same with pot. Folks will use whatever comes to hand, till they can legally differentiate and express preference. Once legality is assured, the folks looking for a recreational use will start to differentiate by product type, and develop niche markets. Defined, I suspect, as much by the developing aesthetics of how someone ingests the drug as by the type of high it produces.
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    But it as absolutely nothing to do with marijuana being a gateway drug or not. To determine that, one needs to look at substance abuse users and see how they got started.
    This is completely wrong. To determine if marijuana is a gateway drug you would need to look at everyone that has ever tried it and then see what percentage went on to abuse other substances.

    If 52% of America's 432.5 million adults have tried marijuana and there are 2.1 million opioid addicts in the US I'm thinking it's not that much of a gateway drug.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    This is completely wrong. To determine if marijuana is a gateway drug you would need to look at everyone that has ever tried it and then see what percentage went on to abuse other substances.

    If 52% of America's 432.5 million adults have tried marijuana and there are 2.1 million opioid addicts in the US I'm thinking it's not that much of a gateway drug.
    I'm with Steven! Well put sir.

    I've always said that the only possible gateway is that - with weed illegal - you buy it from the same person selling harder drugs. The seller makes more $ on the harder drugs + they are easier to transport - so there is a built-in reason for the seller to convince buyers to buy say coke over pot.
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    This is completely wrong. To determine if marijuana is a gateway drug you would need to look at everyone that has ever tried it and then see what percentage went on to abuse other substances.

    If 52% of America's 432.5 million adults have tried marijuana and there are 2.1 million opioid addicts in the US I'm thinking it's not that much of a gateway drug.
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  6. #41
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    .

    If 52% of America's 432.5 million adults have tried marijuana ....
    That poll suggests 40% liars.
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  7. #42
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    That poll suggests 40% liars.
    I could believe that. I just did a quick google for the numbers I used.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    This is completely wrong. To determine if marijuana is a gateway drug you would need to look at everyone that has ever tried it and then see what percentage went on to abuse other substances.

    If 52% of America's 432.5 million adults have tried marijuana and there are 2.1 million opioid addicts in the US I'm thinking it's not that much of a gateway drug.
    We disagree, strongly. To determine how opioid addicts got started, you need to look at them, not all of the people who are not addicts. Its logical. That's why today, we know the gateway to most heroin addicts is prescription pain killers (IIRC the number is around 75%). That does not necessarily say you should make all painkillers illegal, but it certainly says you want to be careful about how they are prescribed, distributed, etc.

    By your logic, the vast majority of people who are prescribed painkillers for a legitimate reason never become heroin addicts, so what the heck, painkillers are not the problem.

    I am not saying that every drug addict who once used pot, had pot as the gateway. I am saying that looking at people who go on to normal lives does not tell you that it is not a gateway.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    scoreboard
    I guess, if we are keeping score for those who make illogical arguments.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    I think alcohol is the main gateway drug, as it's readily available everywhere. Wether a person goes on to using other substances depends on a lot of factors.

    I smoked weed, never wanted to use heroine, meth, coke, or speed, although LSD, mushrooms and MDMA are pretty good, as well as being non-addictive. Their effect goes down with increased use, with LSD to almost nothing.

    Humans have been getting high in one form or another since we could walk on 2 feet, in fact some say that's how we started to walk on 2 feet. Yet to this day there has never been an intelligent debate, nor intelligent legislation concerning drugs. I include alcohol and tobacco in that statement.

    I wrote a paper on the connections between psychedelics and creativity. Now I'm an oil and gas professional.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I guess, if we are keeping score for those who make illogical arguments.
    I don't see you & Steven as disagreeing at all. Steven says very few pot smokers become opioid users because they first smoked pot. You're saying that most addicts start via prescribed painkillers. Neither precludes the other & in fact, I think your statement helps support Steven's.
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  12. #47
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Humans have been getting high in one form or another since we could walk on 2 feet, in fact some say that's how we started to walk on 2 feet.
    Just interesting enough to ask 'how's that?'
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  13. #48
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I don't see you & Steven as disagreeing at all. Steven says very few pot smokers become opioid users because they first smoked pot. You're saying that most addicts start via prescribed painkillers. Neither precludes the other & in fact, I think your statement helps support Steven's.
    I am saying that today, we know that prescription drugs are a gateway to heroin. Steven's logic would certainly say we know no such thing. I originally said that the only way to know if marijuana is a gateway drug to other drugs is to look at what addicts started out with. Steven says that because a huge number of people have tried pot in their live (even if only one time) we know its not a gateway drug. Its an absurd argument.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    This might be a little more meaningful if we had a definition of "gateway drug".
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  15. #50
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Just interesting enough to ask 'how's that?'
    Terence McKenna.


    Perhaps the most intriguing of Terence McKenna's fascinating theories and observations is his explanation for the origin of the human mind and human culture.
    To summarize: McKenna theorizes that as the North African jungles receded toward the end of the most recent ice age, giving way to grasslands, a branch of our tree-dwelling primate ancestors left the branches and took up a life out in the open -- following around herds of ungulates, nibbling what they could along the way.
    Among the new items in their diet were psilocybin-containing mushrooms growing in the dung of these ungulate herds. The changes caused by the introduction of this drug to the primate diet were many -- McKenna theorizes, for instance, that synesthesia (the blurring of boundaries between the senses) caused by psilocybin led to the development of spoken language: the ability to form pictures in another person's mind through the use of vocal sounds.
    About 12,000 years ago, further climate changes removed the mushroom from the human diet, resulting in a new set of profound changes in our species as we reverted to pre-mushroomed and frankly brutal primate social structures that had been modified and/or repressed by frequent consumption of psilocybin.
    McKenna's theory has great appeal and intuitive strength, but it is necessarily based on a great deal of supposition interpolating between the few fragmentary facts we know about hominid and early human history. In addition, because McKenna (who describes himself as "an explorer, not a scientist") is also a proponent of much wilder suppositions, such as his "Timewave Zero" theory, his more reasonable theories are usually disregarded by the very scientists whose informed criticism is crucial for their development.
    This page links to resources that should help to fill in some of the gaps with data from the sciences and with other theories and myths about human origins.
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  16. #51
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Just interesting enough to ask 'how's that?'
    Well imagine that we are all ape like early hominids living in the African savanna. Life is short brutal and dangerous. Then a small group accidentally eat psychotropic mushrooms, or alcoholic fermented fruit, or ahuasca vine, or somesuch. The drugs open up parts of our brains that improve creative thinking, so imaginitive ways to make tools are pondered upon, language faculties increase, hunting methods improve etc, so basic survival rates for that group are much better. Along with this, visual acuity is momentarily increased under the influence (if you haven't tried it, you won't know this), perhaps a reason that we could see further and with better resolution, and this may have been a reason to stand up on our hind legs more often. Better visual acuity also is useful for hunting, and running away.

    Why would certain hominids die out, and others go on to make lasers and jet turbines?

    Why do some have a vocabulary of about 50 words and gestures, and others millions, with over 6000 distinct languages?

    Do you think a monkey can cogitate a solid cube in space, and revolve it slowly in his mind? How did meta-cognition, the phylosophical arts, our incredible imagination get here?

    It's not that far fetched an idea, and is backed up by the fact that we have chemical receptors in our brains that are keyed to fit exactly with certain psychotropic chemicals that occour naturally.

    If you look at tribes in Brazil, you will see that they ritually use very powerful drugs in a religious setting to commune with their Gods and spirits. This could be a template for how the rest of us evolved.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Well imagine that we are all ape like early hominids living in the African savanna. Life is short brutal and dangerous. Then a small group accidentally eat psychotropic mushrooms, or alcoholic fermented fruit, or ahuasca vine, or somesuch. The drugs open up parts of our brains that improve creative thinking, so imaginitive ways to make tools are pondered upon, language faculties increase, hunting methods improve etc, so basic survival rates for that group are much better. Along with this, visual acuity is momentarily increased under the influence (if you haven't tried it, you won't know this), perhaps a reason that we could see further and with better resolution, and this may have been a reason to stand up on our hind legs more often. Better visual acuity also is useful for hunting, and running away.

    Why would certain hominids die out, and others go on to make lasers and jet turbines?

    Why do some have a vocabulary of about 50 words and gestures, and others millions, with over 6000 distinct languages?

    Do you think a monkey can cogitate a solid cube in space, and revolve it slowly in his mind? How did meta-cognition, the phylosophical arts, our incredible imagination get here?

    It's not that far fetched an idea, and is backed up by the fact that we have chemical receptors in our brains that are keyed to fit exactly with certain psychotropic chemicals that occour naturally.

    If you look at tribes in Brazil, you will see that they ritually use very powerful drugs in a religious setting to commune with their Gods and spirits. This could be a template for how the rest of us evolved.
    Psilocybin actually improves peripheral vision quite a lot, and the effect is measurable for weeks afterward.
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  18. #53
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    how high was terence mckenna when he came up with that wild ****?
    what a great theory, i love it
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    how high was terence mckenna when he came up with that wild ****?
    what a great theory, i love it
    It actually makes a lot of sense.

    Moving out onto the plains where all those organic buffalo chips were sprouting little, purple 'shrooms . . .


    Plus this, from Lupussonic:
    It's not that far fetched an idea, and is backed up by the fact that we have chemical receptors in our brains that are keyed to fit exactly with certain psychotropic chemicals that occour naturally.
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  20. #55
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    how high was terence mckenna when he came up with that wild ****?
    what a great theory, i love it
    Great theory - but (if we're being honest) - no teeth! The 'trick' is to not proceed as if this is proven. Quite honestly, it sounds like 'marketing', to me!
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  21. #56
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Great theory - but (if we're being honest) - no teeth! The 'trick' is to not proceed as if this is proven. Quite honestly, it sounds like 'marketing', to me!
    I think you are misunderstanding Dr. McKenna.
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  22. #57
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Maybe. I'm at work - so my 'incentivizing drugs' are 'restricted'...
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

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  24. #59
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    but then shipped and re-sold where it isn't.
    I'm afraid that if they do this, they are, in fact, criminals. They are breaking the law.

    If 52% of America's 432.5 million adults have tried marijuana and there are 2.1 million opioid addicts in the US I'm thinking it's not that much of a gateway drug.
    I think you are on the right track, but I would posit that we compare the number of regular users of marijuana, with the number of regular users of opioids/ other drugs ( " addict," implies regular use, yes?). Gateway drug implies, to me, that a regular user of drug A is more predisposed to be a regular user of drugs B, C and D.

    Those who try something once or twice are not predisposed to use drugs at all.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    ...
    If 52% of America's 432.5 million adults have tried marijuana .....
    The USA adult population (even including the reds) is only of the order of 250 million.
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    The USA adult population (even including the reds) is only of the order of 250 million.

    And one in ten are high right now.


  27. #62
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    The USA adult population (even including the reds) is only of the order of 250 million.
    Oops, you are right, I guess I transposed the number incorrectly on my little phone screen. The number I was trying to use was 242,470,820, but that is a few years out of date.

    The fact of the matter is that Marijuana is not a gateway drug. No matter what some old fashioned types think. Prescription opioids are gateway drugs to non prescription opioids. I'd buy that.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    To determine that, one needs to look at substance abuse users and see how they got started. In the past, the vase majority cocaine or heroin users did start out with marijuana.
    That's true only if you don't count nicotine and alcohol. It's a dishonest argument.
    Well, Mr. Botard, do you still deny all rhinocerotic evidence?

  29. #64
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    That's true only if you don't count nicotine and alcohol. It's a dishonest argument.
    You can survey for anything and include or disallow according to what you are trying to prove ( which, IMO, is a problem with surveys, whether the bias is intentional or not). However, if someone used marijuana prior to using coke or LSD, then they did that whether they smoked cigarettes or not, or whether they drank alcohol or not. It's not dishonest at all.

    Kevin
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  30. #65
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by PhaseLockedLoop View Post
    That's true only if you don't count nicotine and alcohol. It's a dishonest argument.
    I never said one should not count nicotine or alcohol. Its dishonest of you to imply that I did.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Humans have been getting high in one form or another since we could walk on 2 feet, in fact some say that's how we started to walk on 2 feet. Yet to this day there has never been an intelligent debate, nor intelligent legislation concerning drugs. I include alcohol and tobacco in that statement.
    There is a lot of truth to that statement. The Canadian government is about to legalize recreational marijuana. The current legislation seems to deal exclusively with smoking the stuff. None of the brilliant civil servants who draft the legislation appear to have considered cookies, muffins, etc. so the whole thing will have to be re-drafted next year. I haven't done hash in years but if I had a choice between smoking or eating I would sure choose eating. The provinces are all in a tizzy because they are in charge of deciding who gets to sell the stuff. The morons in Ontario are running around in circles.

    I didn't realize that in Ontario craft beers can not be sold in anything larger that a 4 pack. Stupid regulation.

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    Default Re: marijuana as a gateway drug

    "Do da best you can... But first take care of head."

    There is nothing you can do with an ape/human hybrid. They'll rip your arm off.

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