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Thread: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Just wondered what your thoughts were on using a plastic tube as a liner for the rudder shaft housing?
    Everything you see in the preceding photographs is reversible as I have not glued up yet.

  2. #142
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Will you be glassing the interior as is normally done on a boat planked with 1/4" thick stock? Or is the addition of ribs going to compensate for that?
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Rich,

    Yes, I have enough fibreglass to do inside and out. I ditched that awful chopped strand matt and bought 6oz woven as you suggested earlier and will do the inside first then add the intermediate Ash ribs. My idea is to panel between each main frame/rib and then use a top hat strip over each rib to join it all up. I don't suppose that is very good practice from a strength point of view but I don't want it to look too obvious that the whole thing is gobbed up with fibre glass. I have left those five MDF formers in place so as to support the boat on the strong back when I turn it over for external glassing. It is a bit of a headache trying to work out the sequence of doing the build so as I don't paint myself into a corner. For instance, I will have to see about the metalwork that must go in before I can place the deck sheathing. There are six metal fittings on the forward king plank and five behind the cockpit. I haven't made these parts yet but figure to make them from stainless steel. I am not much of a metalworker so may have to order it. I could buy off the shelf parts but I would like the fittings to look something like the original if possible.

    I don't know what you think about the plastic tube liner for the rudder shaft. I am a bit worried about bonding so I might make an epoxy/glass tube of the same size which will bond to the trunk structure. It might not be too much of an issue anyway because, as far as I understand, the trunk is set pretty much above the waterline.

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    View of original 'Lorelei' foredeck showing various metalwork...chain plate, ring, three blocks and cleat. Photograph by kind permission of Tom.


  5. #145
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    When building my launch, I had the same concerns about putting in a plastic tube for the rudder/motor post. I ended up making my own out of fiberglass. I took a piece of PVC pipe, wrapped it in multiple layers of wax paper and wrapped that in multiple layers of 4" fiberglass tape. Built it up to a thickness of 1/8", then pulled out the PVC pipe, leaving me with a very strong tube that bonded well to the hull.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Sounds good, Rich, I'll give that a try. I am getting very close to sealing up the stern perimeter which will allow me to finish that tumblehome and final shaping of the transom. I could have sheathed that whole area with one piece of ply but I have to leave the central area open until I fit the metalwork...the horse (which I wrongly termed the traveller last time around!) and pins/bolts for fixing the aft end of the cockpit coaming. Anyway, I will take a couple of photos as I do the work.

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Sorry if I missed this earlier, but what wood did you use for the transom? Looks much like the cypress I used on my Coquina.
    Beautiful shape BTW.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Reynard38,

    The wood is Western Red Cedar (WRC) which I tried to match up from the ample stock I had left over from the strip hull. The joins in the five planks show up because of the epoxy used but should look better after being rubbed down, glassed and finished.
    It might sound a bit boring but the deck framework and king planks are also made of the same stuff as will be the deck strips. The latter should be Port Orford Pine but I can't think of where I could possibly get that here in the UK.
    I know that WRC is not very tough and easily marked but I intend to glass the deck as well. Not sure yet how I can define the individual deck strips. The original 'Lorelei' deck strips look as though they have very thin gaps filled with black sealant of some sort...pitch maybe?

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    you will not need to glass the inside, that will just make for alot of work and clean up and extra weight, just epoxy coat it... may be a very light cloth on the deck, 4 oz should be enough but if you mix epoxy and graphite to glue the deck planking together you will have a strong tight deck and the plank lines will show up black, no glass needed.

  10. #150
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Music to my ears, Daniel. I am very tempted to follow your advice here for all the good reasons you have given. I was not looking forward to the pain of glassing the interior and I am keen to keep the weight down.
    Just a thought about the graphite...is there a danger of staining the deck strip facings? I'm not too bothered about that though as a bit of discolouration might add an antique effect here and there.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    you will not need to glass the inside, that will just make for alot of work and clean up and extra weight, just epoxy coat it... may be a very light cloth on the deck, 4 oz should be enough but if you mix epoxy and graphite to glue the deck planking together you will have a strong tight deck and the plank lines will show up black, no glass needed.
    There can be some debate on this. The 1/4" planking has very little strength and the fiberglass doesn't just waterproof the hull, but gives it structural integrity, strengthening the hull and added much needed stiffness. To work properly, it must be done inside and out. Something or other to do with compression. The widely spaced ribs you've got aren't going to provide that.
    Look at every 1/4" strip planked boat on this forum and you'll see them glassed inside and out.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Well I am being torn two ways now. I can see the merit on both sides of the coin...savings in time, mess, clean up, weight on the one side and strength/integrity of a double skin/sandwich on the other. I have to lean towards the latter because the strips were laid, in the first place, using white wood glue. This glue also lightly holds the strip to the main ribs to which they were attached in the initial build. My reasoning was that a good brodling (a Barnsley, South Yorks, word akin to fettling) with epoxy would seep its way into the strip/rib joints on the inside to give the required strength. A layer of glass in addition will do no harm. As for the rib spacing...those that were placed in the initial build conform to the hackmatack ones in the original catboat which on my 2/3 scale down are set at 14" centres. These will be interspersed by Ash ribs at a later stage, so making the ribs only 7" apart. I would dearly like to kick the interior layup into touch but, I think I had better lay aside my idle streak and do the job properly.

    In the mean time I have just ordered a list of SS items which include all the deck and shroud wire fittings except the horse and the chain plates which I will have to 'fashion' myself.


    Tom : If you read this I hope you might help me with a close up photo of the cleat just in front of the cockpit. I assume that the two missing from the c/b trunk top would probably be the same design as that one. I would like to get somewhere near the shape of them by reworking the 'off the shelf' ones I have ordered.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Certainly the builders of stripped racing canoe would have forgone the glassed interior if they could. Same with builders and designers like Nick Schade. You do have the frames working for you but you also have a higher loaded object. Some structural testing would help answer questions and you may find the research done in the strip community. You could take the risk.... It's too bad that the frames that you have in the boat now were not meant for removal as that would make interior glassing easier. Any additional frames should go in after interior glassing. Btw: How are the strips held to the frames? Structural glue? Or just little dabs?
    Last edited by Ben Fuller; 09-12-2017 at 05:43 AM.
    Ben Fuller
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  14. #154
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Ben,

    Yes, I will add the Ash frames after interior glassing which I have already started at the stern but only one required in this area which will be Frame 24 (just behind the aft cockpit bulkhead (Frame 23) with the double doors.
    I used just enough white glue to hold the strips to the main frames so as to allow the epoxy to penetrate the joints when glassing up.

    Thinking about anchoring (epoxying) the horse in oversized blind holes drilled in the mounting block...any thoughts/comments would be welcome here. This method would make for a much easier build and the horse could be fitted after the deck strips have been placed.

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    If you have only used light glue to install strips, can you glass the outside first, then remove the frames temporarily while the interior is glassed?
    You could then reinstall them after a bit of trimming.
    It sounds like work, but may be less than glassing between them. It will end up tidier and you will also spread the load of the frames better across the glassed surface.

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Slacko,

    That's a good, practical idea but not one I can follow for various reasons and I have already committed to interior first and doing it right now. I have to get those Ash frames in and the perimeter ply sheathing for the deck fixed down. The reason for this is that my plan is to bring the exterior glass right over onto this sheathing as an overlap which will give extra strength in the shear area. So, the exterior glassing will have to wait a while yet. I now have to go out and find some Ash. We used to have a fine supplier of various timbers at a place called 'John Boddy', Boroughbridge, Yorks. but they went bust a while back and there is nowhere close now...I had to go to Essex for my WRC. There is a huge Ash tree in my neighbours garden next door...I wonder if he would miss a branch or two?

  17. #157
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    A gentleman from Athens, Greece, sent a PM asking for copies of my plans for 'Lorelei' . Unfortunately I have no plans as such and have built the boat by making sketches as I went along and with the invaluable help from Tom in the form of photographs and measurements.
    I suggested that he should go for something similar in shape/size for which he could acquire plans and promised to show him a photo of my Melonseed (first build) that I did about 10 years ago. Plans for this 16' skiff are available from the Woodenboat.com plans service, price $90. Melonseed is also a beautiful design (Mark Barto) and handling is a dream...I never capsized her once!


  18. #158
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    dear sir, I appreciate your interest and your proposal for the construction of the 16' melonseed skiff! It's very nice boat! but as I told you, I have fallen in love with the catboat ''lorelei''...

    three years ago I saw abandoned a clinker skiff and after a lot of work (a wonderful trip) I managed to stamp it!

    some photographs with vela latina sails

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Dear,Don Scott

    I will continue to watch - I enjoy building your boat!!!

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Mouzikus,

    That old boat must have been a labour of love and looks like you only just caught it in time. You certainly made a grand job of restoration.
    On the subject of Gil Smith catboats, I believe that the Long Island Maritime Museum, West Sayville, New York, have plans available for a modern version of one of his boats. The Museum has a website that may help you.

    Many of Smith's designs were similar to 'Lorelei'. I am sorry that I can't help you with plans for this particular boat. If you are determined to build a 'Lorelei' then you must start from the line drawings and offsets (page 1, #6 of this thread) Reduce them to whatever scale you wish (unless you wish to build the full size version - 25 feet) and then derive 27 frames from those results, spaced at the correct intervals. Spacing on the original is 10 inches and they are approximately 7" on my 2/3 scaled down version. All you need after that are some craft skills in wood, a strong will, determination and the patience of Job.

    All I can say is that, if I could manage it then there are many thousands of others who could do the same.

  21. #161
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Dear Don Scott, you are really gentleman!!!

    I will use the help of my spouse (I know the English language very quickly) and I will investigate the information you have given me to achieve my goal! Greetings from Greece! visit us some summer ... we have a wonderful sea!
    sorry for my poor English! most is through google translate.

  22. #162
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Mouzikos...I wish you well in your endeavours, but read your German folklore first...never fall in love with the Lorelei or you may find yourself on the rocks.

    Well, at last I have sorted the tumblehome/transom job after quite a few hours of chipping away at it. Here are a few photographs to let you see the results which are not too far away from how they should be. Of course, no boat builder would use my method if he had to earn a living from it. Things would have been easier if I was going to paint the hull white (which may happen eventually) because, in exposing the strip build the strips had to line up all the way up and over onto the deck. You will see what I mean in the photographs and I wasn't all together joking when I likened it to marquetry with all those small pieces. However, they form the curve that is followed by the wider deck border strip which also carries the toe rail.


  23. #163
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    ^That looks sweet.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #164
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I took a leaf out of Rich Jones ideas book and it worked very well. The fibre glass tube goes all the way through from top of aft king plank (which will end up much thinner than you see here) and through the false keel so it should be good and water tight around the rudder shaft area. I don't know what wood was used for the original shaft...I have been looking for an offcut of Douglas fir but all the timber merchants want me to buy a whole forest. Gone are the days when these businessmen were very willing to help out in cases like mine. They just don't seem to be bothered about have a little pile of offcuts lying about, just waiting for people like me. I would be interested to hear what other kinds of wood might be used for the rudder shaft. You may have spotted the only 'small' rib in the lazerette which was going to be Ash but in fact it's Oak. Once again, I have been unable to purchase a length of Ash for the job. Anyway, I'm sure that Oak will do just as good a job as long as I can bend it...Heart's of Oak and all that.

    Last edited by Don Scott; 09-19-2017 at 03:18 PM.

  25. #165
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Having glassed the lazerette, I am now working my way forward and doing the same for the whole interior. This involves removing the rest of those MDF moulds, but it can't be helped. I will have to support the hull in some other way when I turn it over for glassing the bottom. I have also started to beef up the carlins with double knees either side of each of the odd numbered frames... you will see a couple over the three 'bays' that I have already glassed, just forward of the rear cockpit bulkhead (the one that will have a pair of doors mounted on it)

    I have just learned that the cleat at the rear of the original's forward king plank is barely 3" long so the one you see will have to go, even though it is the right shape. Lorelei is getting her first taste of steel in the form of the mooring ring. Unfortunately, even though we are only a stones throw from Sheffield...home of stainless steel! the one here has come from a little further afield.






    Last edited by Don Scott; 09-20-2017 at 02:54 AM.

  26. #166
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    These are the doors on the original cat boat, mentioned in above post. Unable to flip the cleat photo but you can see that the original is only 3" long which would make it 2" on my 2/3 build (too small). I can only find a 4" version so far.
    Photograph by kind permission of Tom.

    Last edited by Don Scott; 09-20-2017 at 04:07 AM.

  27. #167
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don- that transom looks great!

  28. #168
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Well, Tom, I am quite pleased with it but it took an awful long time to get there. I've now got another long and tedious job in glassing the rest of the interior so I might not be back here for a while. If you are reading this, could you measure the width of the horse and distance from rear face of cockpit coaming please. I think I have just about enough information/measurements now to finish the build. Some of my dimensions are slightly off the mark here and there but not miles off... a blind man on a galloping donkey would be hard pressed to notice them. I think the faults stem from scaling up from the model instead of down from the actual boat.


    Thanks for those extra photographs you sent by PM. I will continue to post them and others on the forum as they become relevant to the build progress.

  29. #169
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don- I'm not sure what you mean by "horse" but I'll measure some items for you next week. As far as the cleat goes it was 3 1/2 inches with about 3/8 removed from the horn facing aft. Not sure why this was done and I'm not sure of the purpose of this cleat as there is the mooring ring forward. I would think that you could use a 4 inch cleat. Tom

  30. #170
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Tom,

    The fitting I am interested in is the metal 'loop' that is mounted just behind the cockpit coaming. That is it on the extreme right of one of your photographs. All I need is a measurement between the two mounting holes on the deck so as I can make one from SS round bar. Also, how far back is it from the coaming...it looks to be around 8" or so.

    I have heard people refer to this fitting as the 'horse' and it carries the 'traveller' but I am not well up on nautical vocab as I have admitted before. Maybe you have a different name for it over there.

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