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Thread: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    ^Agreed, much easier from above...plus it would be a much better position from which to sight the tumblehome-to-deck transition. This, to me, is the trickiest bit of fairing on the whole boat and needs to be gotten just right from a number of vantage points.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I see a trip to England in Jim's future!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don: One suggestion for the quarters with their tumblehome:
    We had similar areas on MAGIC and she was cold-molded. The builder, Bent Jespersen, fitted an oversized block of WRC to each quarter to permit fairing in the quick turns of the hull, the "corners" of the transom and the crown of the deck. It is rather complicated to try to loft and show in 3 dimensions, though doable, however, Bent found that using battens and a lot of careful eyeballing, made it all work.
    I am going to have to get off me duff to move photos from the PB site in order to post a view of this, though your pictures show the shape well.
    (Keep an eye out on an upcoming Off Center Harbor video for a view of this.)
    Craig

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I also agree with both of you about the ease of dealing with the transom when the boat is right way up.However, there is a problem here in terms of 'man' power. My wife and I are in our late 70s and not the fittest folks around. However, we are the only ones around to turn the boat upright so it will only happen once. We only just managed to turn the Melonseed in 2009. Therefore, I have to virtually finish the underside before turning. I am pretty sure that I can compromise and do everything possible with the boat as it is but, well aware and agreeing that it cannot be finished until it is turned right way up.

    The sketch below will hopefully explain the idea I have to tackle the job which, as you say Jim, is the most difficult but has to be got right, otherwise I will have wasted my time on it. My idea is to stretch a thin plate between the blocks to provide a working surface then slowly fit into place two half 'false' transoms until they can be butt joined together on the centreline and glued in place. Then the strips can be brought flush with this piece.

    The 'true' transom can then be shaped, glued and trimmed to fit, leaving the strip ends neatly hidden behind it. I hope I have explained this properly and apologise for the poor sketch.
    Two of those support stringers (outboard) will be extensions of the cockpit framework which will also have to support the aft end of the toe rails as they curve into the centre deck. That job will be a bit of a puzzle in itself but we will sort it when we get there.

    Last edited by Don Scott; 08-09-2017 at 06:28 PM.

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Instead of a false transom, make and fit fashion pieces. Sawn frame timbers in effect. Much more robust and capable of taking fastenings whilst the glue sets up.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  6. #111
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Graig : I might well have to resort to the WRC block to 'get round the bend' if the bead/cove strip cannot be made to follow the contour.
    Nick : I may have mislead you with that sketch. The card is only a template for a false transom made from ply and will be able to take fixings.

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Having bother with POSTIMAGE just now so can't be sure if the photographs download. If someone will be kind enough to let me know.

    After forming the two angle blocks into one 'working' surface, I have created a half pattern transom (in card) with a few abortive attempts seen lying on the left. The fourth attempt worked out well and I made a whole 'false transom' from 1/4" ply which I was able to slide into place because of the fact that some of the outer strips were sprung (i.e. not glued up as you can see in the picture below). I have glued it in place with the intension of beefing it up on the inside. Now, all that remains is to cut back the strips and make flush with this transom and fit the 'true' transom later. The important thing was to be able to prepare the hull whilst still inverted to take the fibreglass coating before turning the boat right side up. It is still a headache because I do not have any measurements with regard to camber on the aft deck and so will have to do a fair bit of eyeballing to get it right. I still have a bit of leeway to adjust the final shape of the transom which is most important. To make that very tight turn onto the upper side I have an idea to split the last three 3/4" strips back about 6" using a razor saw to help the process...we'll see how it goes.


  8. #113
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


  9. #114
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Nick : I may have mislead you with that sketch. The card is only a template for a false transom made from ply and will be able to take fixings.
    I knew that, fashion pieces are easier. They go in piece meal, and are stronger especially taking fixings through the plank. Much more width to aim at and you will not be screwing into end grain. Compare the strength of the joint area of that ply false transom at one end with your stem at the other.
    I would still fit them where you are pulling the tumble home in, for their robustness.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #115
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Nick : explain 'fashion pieces' please. I can't visualise them so a sketch or picture would help, especially now that I am working on that tight turn around the transom.

    Also, can you please verify that the latest photos have materialised on my recent post (false transom) above. I can see them but that doesn't mean that everyone can do so.

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Yes, I can see your images.
    A fashion piece is a transom frame, similar to a cant frame. It is fitted to fay the plank and transom. Depending on whether the transom is flat or curved, the fashion piece may bend and twist in two directions, where as a cant timber is flat, but at an angle to the vertical or the centre line.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  12. #117
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Nick : This is my interpretation of your description of 'fashion piece' which I would say is not far removed from Graig's WRC blocks. Either way, it is an attempt to beef that ply 'false transom' so as to give strength to the area. There are two parts/quarters to the block each side (I found it easier to 'fashion') and there will be more batons/blocks to top and bottom, ending up with a complete frame that is webbed by the ply. It's all a bit messy but will be strong and out of sight. The photograph was taken on my back looking up and you can see the construction blocks which helped to mount the transom at the correct angle...now removed.


  13. #118
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    That is pretty much it, although Craigs block might have run for and aft. When you have finished adding timber top and bottom it will be a proper job, and pretty well bomb proof.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #119
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Another picture here to show the transom tidied up and the strips flushed. However, my eye tells me that the top (the bottom here!) curve is too shallow and not quite right to provide the correct camber topside but easily fixed. As far as that tight tumblehome turn is concerned, I almost made it round the bend. I'll get there in the end but maybe not until the boat has been turned.


  15. #120
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    These are the only two pictures I have to show the classic lines of the transom but they help to better explain my earlier text. (both photographs by kind permission of Tom)

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Another picture here to show the transom tidied up and the strips flushed. However, my eye tells me that the top (the bottom here!) curve is too shallow and not quite right to provide the correct camber topside but easily fixed. As far as that tight tumblehome turn is concerned, I almost made it round the bend. I'll get there in the end but maybe not until the boat has been turned.

    I think that you need to let the tumble home start a bit further foreward. I would be tempted to slit the seams with a fine saw over at least a foot, then pull them into the transom and re-glue them. That will allow the plank to lay more naturally.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #121
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is pretty much it, although Craig's block might have run for and aft. When you have finished adding timber top and bottom it will be a proper job, and pretty well bomb proof.
    Nick is (again) correct.

    Bent's blocking was fitted primarily fore and aft. It appears from your photos that if you add a couple of blocks to what you have under the deck edge and (very probably) make the slits Nick described to release the strips a bit further forward, I think that you should fine it easier to achieve that lovely stern quarter shape you are aiming for by providing enough "meat" to permit the required fairing. Some of the topmost strips right at the deck to hull edge approaching the transom will probably not extend all the way aft, once faired.
    I look forward to seeing how it works out for you, because these are truly lovely shapes.

    Craig

  17. #122
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Craig/Nick : I did mention earlier that I would split the top three strips back by 6", which I did but would accept that I might have extended them further forward to relieve the curve better. I can still do that but need to modify frames 27 and 26 just forward of the transom to let things flow a bit. Looking at photographs of the original, the only point of reference is the toe rail which gently curves in from the gunwale at about Frame 26 and tightens up sharply to meet at the centre aft deck, just in front of the transom. It is going to be fun in working out just what sort of fixings are going to hold all that lot together back there.


    Meanwhile, here is another shot to bring things up to date. You can see that I have added a curved strip to what will be the top of the transom so as to better produce that 'Gil Smith' look. There is still room for adjustment which will have to be done using my magic eye...(the Artful Bodger). I have also started to fix the keel in place which will require further shaping.


  18. #123
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    That does look better. I recommend that you take a photo from just above or on the floor, then flip it 180 to see what she looks like the right way up.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #124
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    "Artful Bodger", very clever, might have to steal that....

    -Dan

  20. #125
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don- there are 14 "run-off" holes on each rail, each is 1/2 inch by 2 inches and are spaced 12 inches apart. They run adjacent to the coaming. I have about a dozen photos to share but first need to figure out the photo thing so I can add them to this thread.

  21. #126
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Many thanks for that information, Tom. I received your PM and sent you an email as requested. I can post those additional photographs on the thread if you wish. When the boat is turned I will be able to show these and a few of your earlier photographs (the ones used in the 1/4 scale model build) to show comparison with the current build, as it develops. They will help to keep me on my toes and get it right.

  22. #127
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don- I forwarded a few photos of the transom that may help, the planking can be readily seen in them. Also take note of the deck planks under the toerail and it's shaping that contributes to the Gil Smith look.

  23. #128
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Thank you, Tom. I have emailed you again. Meanwhile, here is one of Tom's latest photos showing a general shot of the transom on Lorelei. I have some closer views which may appear on their sides...for reasons beyond my control. I will put them up anyway as they reveal some interesting clues as to the tumblehome and transom construction due to the fact that a number of fine cracks have appeared on the white finish coat. Feel free to make any deductions you wish from these clues.


  24. #129
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


  25. #130
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


  26. #131
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


  27. #132
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Well, I have to eat my words about turning the boat only once during the build. I took advantage of the fact that my neighbours have some folks to stay with the necessary muscle power so I grabbed them in a way that wasn't going to take no for an answer (in true Napoleon Hill fashion) and it was all over in five minutes. Yes, of course, it all has to be done again because I haven't yet fibre glassed the hull but there are a few problems that have to be sorted out before I do that. The recent photographs provided by Tom are very welcome but they have also pitched up a few structural questions especially in the area of the transom and that tumblehome which turns so sharply onto the afterdeck.


    So, the first photographs are of the primitive preparation required for a safe tip off the hardback onto the shed floor. No, I haven't been camping next to my beloved boat! It's quite amazing how a woman can suddenly come up with obsolete cushions and pillows from all over the place...but very welcome. The photos speak for themselves and so we end up with Lorelei junior the right way up on a lowered hardback...not quite as pretty as when she was upside down, but that will hopefully change.

    For a start, I have an idea that she is a little short on free board so I might add another couple of strips to heighten the sides (that's only an inch and a half) which should not upset those beautiful slim line features. However, I am not sure if that, in turn, will upset the shapely transom/tumblehome combination. The top strip will be oak to add a bit of hardwearing rubbing strip to the gunwale even though the fibre glass should take care of that. Even so, the oak will give no such protection in the last three feet or so because it will already have turned up on to the deck by then in order develop the very tight tumblehome.

    Another interesting feature, which Tom has already pointed out, is the way the toe rail sits on top of the deck edging plank which is itself set above and back from the top hull plank/strip about 1/4 inchor so. I will show photos of these as I progress. There are few more things to puzzle out but this is enough to be going on with.

    Last edited by Don Scott; 08-21-2017 at 04:18 PM.

  28. #133
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    So far, So good. After having slid the strong back into the front garden, it was then cut down by six inches. The boat was elevated by using cross beams elevated by crocodile jacks and brick pillars and the strong back wheeled back into place. Where there's a will, there's a way! I was very relieved to find that there was no distortion in the hull which at this stage is still pretty flimsy and only held together with wood glue.


  29. #134
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    All ready for the next phase.


  30. #135
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    The 'next phase' started well enough but slowly slid down the pan. The trouble with building boats without plans/instructions means that you have to stay ahead of the game (like in the game of chess), the more moves you can store in the brain the better. I thought my idea of adding a couple of strips to the height of the hull sides would work fine...wrong! It would have compromised the ultimate shape (depth) of the that beautiful transom but I got away with removing just one of them. To be absolutely sure of the graceful sheer line and be sure that the after deck would flow into it, I had no alternative but to do some three dimensional lofting to get that flow just right. I have managed to do it after a lot of trial and error but kept the 'glue pot' out of the way until I have no other option but to use it.

    I have used the MDF moulds to good advantage and you can see that they have been cut to form a jig that defines the line of the side structure of the cockpit. The photograph below shows the port side which I am using to prove the structural method and fair that sweeping curve which will then be used to complete the starboard side. Both planks (cockpit side and sheer clamp)require scarfed extensions so that they run the full length of the boat. I have strayed from what I can see in Tom's photographs with regard to the sheer clamp. In stead of it supporting the carlins from underneath, I have set it to the height of the top hull plank so I will have to use small knees on each odd numbered frame to hold it all together. The hull is like an eggshell (1/4" thick) so I will also double the thickness at the topstrip...every little helps. I think I will leave the boat upright for now and carry on cutting and dry fitting all the parts of the deck support structure before turning it upside down to do the fibreglassing.



    Last edited by Don Scott; 08-30-2017 at 04:46 AM.

  31. #136
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


  32. #137
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"



    Two photographs from Tom showing : Above - starboard sheer clamp looking forward and Below - The starboard side lazarette (I hope that's right). The tail of the sheer clamp extends just beyond frame 26. The large bolt with nut on the same frame (26) is the starboard fixture for the traveller bar just behind the cockpit and the smaller one on frame 25 I believe to be one of the fixings for the cockpit coaming. The transom can be seen but not clear/sharp enough to see how it is formed.
    Last edited by Don Scott; 09-01-2017 at 03:34 PM.

  33. #138
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Still beavering away at the deck framework and it is coming along slowly. I have decided to use all my spare WRC where ever I can and beef it up where necessary. I managed to figure out a way of dealing with that severe stern tumblehome and at the moment it looks more like maritime marquetry. The sheathing base for the deck strips is 3.6mm hardwood ply and I learned a little bit about quality of this type of material. From what I can gather (internet reading) the old WBP (Water Boil Proof) standard is obsolete but, that might only apply in the EU area. Apparently there are three standards EN636-1, EN636-2 and EN636-3. You can read the detail for yourselves on internet and I hope I haven't started an avalanche of discussion on the subject . I have chosen to use the middle grade which should be sealed against moisture absorption.


    I have taken a few photographs which I will post up for anyone who is interested. I have sorted the stem head at last and working on the stern and rudder post trunk. There are all sorts of things to do and fittings to be found before I can start sheathing and gluing up. If I am doing anything wrong or missing something then please have a go at me.


  34. #139
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


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