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Thread: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    They are there, but a bit small. If you click on the pic. it takes you to the full size image.

    How does this look to you?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  2. #72
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    That's fine Nick, except that the image is not one of mine and the one you have placed seems to have capsized!
    That was me asking you if my attempt of posting my images worked. I'll take it as a yes then,
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #73
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Nick, your photograph looks very good and fills the post page nicely. What system/service are you using then?
    If you are using POSTIMAGE, which of the alternatives do you use?
    I have been clicking on the 'thumb nail for forums'
    Is there a better one to use?
    Postimage.org, It may be how you use the system. Your last test worked fine.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #74
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don - she looks great! I sent you a PM.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Hello Tom. I do apologise for not responding to your message although I had every intension of doing so. I have been quite busy in the last two weeks since you sent the PM, not the least of which was this photobucket bombshell. My wife and I have just come home from a week in Northumberland and I have let a few things slide. Anyway , I think I am back on course with the 'Lorelei' thread and sorted the image problem. Things wouldn't work without them so we will just have to wait and se if other photo hosting companies follow in the path of PB. I don't think they are quite aware of the damage they have caused...not just to this forum but many others. Thanks for your continued help and I hope my thread on the building of a Gil Smith catboat is of use to the LIMM even if just a talking point. Kind regards, Don

    PS : I was unable to send this reply to your PM so have placed it here...I am obviously doing something wrong!
    The one PM from you concerned 'Stoke on Trent'. Was that the one you were referring to?

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don feel free to ask for assistance if needed and yes, that's the message I was referring to. I hope you enjoyed your holiday. Regards - Tom

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Not much to show for a few more hours of work but here we have a coming together of the sharp and blunt end.
    The whole keel/trunk section (bar the stem) is dry fitted until time comes when I am forced to glue it up.

    Even though the strip laying is laborious it is so satisfying to see the beautiful shape emerge as the frames slowly disappear beneath them.

    029.jpg028.jpg030.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 01:38 PM.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I only have a little more to show since last post although the photographs belie the time spent on the build.
    The stem capping strip is oak and also only temporarily screwed down.
    As can be seen, we are getting very near to closing up the hull but I couldn't go any further until I made permanent fixtures of the c/b trunk and skeg. That's a bit of a messy job and I was putting it off because I hadn't really sorted out exactly how I was going to do it. Anyway, it is starting to come together and I have a few photos for those who are interested. However, as I said from the start, my methods might raise a few eyebrows but you can bury a lot of questionable work if you have a few kilos of epoxy lying around! I am still pretty confidant that the final result will look like a Gil Smith catboat...on the outside at least.

    031.jpg035.jpg046.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 12:56 PM.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Nick : I have looked for any mention of the word 'bedlogs' but could find none. I have assumed that the more common term for these is 'blocking' (found in the Gougeon Brothers book), but may be wrong. My interpretation is as you see it here. They are 'blocks' or 'logs' set between each of the ribs that will be used to pin the outer keelson as it passes along each side of the c/b trunk and skeg. I call it a keelson but it is shaped like a gusset that fairs the bottom of the hull to the c/b/skeg structure. So, I will end up with a sandwich comprising the blocks, strips and keelson...all swimming in a veritable porridge of good old faithful epoxy.


    I feel sure that I am about to be bombarded with some alternative methods of preventing the good ship from falling apart but I'm afraid that the die is already cast and I feel pretty sure that the end result will be safe and strong...and out of sight!

    040.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 12:59 PM.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    This is the starboard inner face of the c/b trunk...again not conventional. The idea is to save weight while keeping some properties of a double thickness of 9mm plywood. The inner strakes allow the c/b to be supported no matter what the position of the board and may better prevent sand/grit jamming ( a problem suffered by the Melonseed I built a few years ago). However, it's only an idea. The other photos show a sequence of c/b positions from fully up to fully down. The c/b shape is final but I haven't decided on how thick to make it...18mm or 27mm ?

    044.jpg041.jpg042.jpg043.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 01:05 PM.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Last picture for the moment. This is the skeg all glued together and almost ready to fix in place. The forward upright (left) forms the rear post of the c/b trunk and the shaft to the right forms part of the mounting for the rudder. Next time I hope to have all the centre/keel work fixed in place and then it will be down to some rubbing down of the hull ready for sheathing in fibreglass.

    047.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 01:43 PM.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Still haven't started on the transom but it can wait. Pity about my fancy bit of herringbone here because it will disappear under the continuation of the outer keelson. Yes, it has a name of its own but I just cannot remember it...where are you Nick? remind me.

    False keel. The keelson is on the inside,
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #83
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Again, not a great deal to show for a few more hours but, I have reached a landmark...or should that be a water shed?

    The hull is at last closed up and the stem sorted. Unfortunately I didn't allow enough material at the top of the stem so I will have to fix that when the boat is turned right way up. Because of the lack of space in my boat shed I have to open the doors to work on the front end but I can't get round the back at all, so I will have to fix some wheels to the strong back so as to draw the whole assembly out of the shed a meter or so to enable me to finish the transom. Then I can rub down the whole shell in preparation for woven fibreglass covering. Just a few questions if you please...

    Q1. Should I give the whole area a coat of epoxy before laying the fibreglass or lay it straight onto the bare wood strip?
    Q2. The skeg is still open at the bottom as may be seen in the photo. Before closing it should I fill it with something or just close it up and trap the air. I just wondered if trapping the air might cause buoyancy problems but it would only involve trapping about half a cubic foot of air. What do you think?
    Q3 TOM, I wonder if you could post a close up photograph of one of the 'run off' holes in the toe rail and let me know how many holes there are in each side. I have guessed at about 15 but none of the photos so far have allowed for an accurate count.

    048.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 01:45 PM.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Q2. The skeg is still open at the bottom as may be seen in the photo. Before closing it should I fill it with something or just close it up and trap the air. I just wondered if trapping the air might cause buoyancy problems but it would only involve trapping about half a cubic foot of air. What do you think?

    Nice shape.
    The buoyancy of trapped air is not an issue, but condensation, damp, and rot might be. I would pack it with wood or something encapsulated in thickened epoxy.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  15. #85
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don - I'll try to get a photo or two for you next week. She looks great and I would fill to voids with wood/epoxy as Nick suggested.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Many thanks Nick and Tom for that good advice. If I had paid more attention to my 'Gougeon Brothers' I would not have needed to ask Q1 about laying up fibreglass on a wet or dry surface. There is a full description of the DRY METHOD FOR CLEAR FINISHING on pages 123/124. I wonder if all of Gil Smith's catboats were finished in white or was he ever tempted to expose beautiful timbers beneath whatever clear finishes that were available in his day. I just have to try the clear finish first to see the result of my labours with laying all that lovely western red cedar strip...I can always apply a coat of white at some future date. That is, of course, if my experiment in building a 2/3 replica doesn't end up with an unstable catboat. We shall see about that.

    By the way, Tom, there is no hurry for the photograph as I have a lot to do before I get to that stage. The next step in the build is to cut and shape the keel which was going to be made from laminations of 9mm ply. I like Nick's idea of using some of my uncut planks of western red cedar stock for that purpose. Believe it or not I have enough of it left to build another 'Lorelei' which only goes to show that I would never have secured a job concerned with estimation of material requirements in Gil Smith's boatyard. Anyway, I might be tempted to have a crack at a strip built Kayak with the leftovers.

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I now have a 'mobile' catboat...or is that an amphibious craft? Whatever it is, it has allowed me to draw the whole assembly forward and partially out of the boat shed so as to gain access to the stern and work on the transom. I have to do that before I can cover the hull with fibreglass but it is not straightforward. At the extreme rear end the tumblehome is not defined by a gunwale and flows into the deck above, just behind the toe rails which curve sharply inboard to meet in the centre. This part of the Gil Smith design is what draws the eye in combination with the sharp rake of the transom...well it does that for me anyway!

    051.jpg055.jpg



    So here is the assembly drawn out of the shed (on a very dull and rain threatening day). You can see the large prepared WRC planks for the keel ready for shaping and fixture/fairing to the hull/CB/skeg. The unfinished 1/4 scale model sits on the c/b slot to show scale comparison.
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 01:50 PM.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I'm interested in seeing how you scribe the transom into that space, Don.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    So am I Jim!

    I can hardly wait to see how I get round the problem !!!
    Joking apart, I do have a pattern for the transom that I worked out on paper before the build started. But there are still some pretty acute bevels to workout due to the extreme rake of it... Might be tricky.
    Last edited by Don Scott; 08-09-2017 at 02:07 PM.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    here are two pictures to show the classic lines of the transom but they help to better explain my earlier text. (both photographs by kind permission of Tom)

    2469748510088484686S500x500Q85catbo.jpgLorelei 12.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 03:30 PM.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I've been thinking about how the transom might be scribed in. The problem as I see it, is that the oversized transom needs to be offered up to the inside of the planking, but, due to the tumblehome it wont go.

    Here's something to you might consider. Remove the two blocks that would hold the transom in its finished position. Replace them with some blocks on the outside, something that would position the transom on the outside face. That way the transom could be offered up from the inside, holding the oversized blank inside the boat and moving it aft. This would allow marking, taking bevels, chalking-in, fitting in general. A strap or string wrapped around the after end of the boat would prevent the spreading of the sides as the transom is being fitted.

    Just a thought.

    jim

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    ^ Might be easier to do with the boat the right way up. That way you will be working down hand rather than lifting components all of the time.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  23. #93
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    ^Agreed, much easier from above...plus it would be a much better position from which to sight the tumblehome-to-deck transition. This, to me, is the trickiest bit of fairing on the whole boat and needs to be gotten just right from a number of vantage points.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I see a trip to England in Jim's future!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don: One suggestion for the quarters with their tumblehome:
    We had similar areas on MAGIC and she was cold-molded. The builder, Bent Jespersen, fitted an oversized block of WRC to each quarter to permit fairing in the quick turns of the hull, the "corners" of the transom and the crown of the deck. It is rather complicated to try to loft and show in 3 dimensions, though doable, however, Bent found that using battens and a lot of careful eyeballing, made it all work.
    I am going to have to get off me duff to move photos from the PB site in order to post a view of this, though your pictures show the shape well.
    (Keep an eye out on an upcoming Off Center Harbor video for a view of this.)
    Craig

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Instead of a false transom, make and fit fashion pieces. Sawn frame timbers in effect. Much more robust and capable of taking fastenings whilst the glue sets up.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  27. #97
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Graig : I might well have to resort to the WRC block to 'get round the bend' if the bead/cove strip cannot be made to follow the contour.
    Nick : I may have mislead you with that sketch. The card is only a template for a false transom made from ply and will be able to take fixings.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Having bother with POSTIMAGE just now so can't be sure if the photographs download. If someone will be kind enough to let me know.

    After forming the two angle blocks into one 'working' surface, I have created a half pattern transom (in card) with a few abortive attempts seen lying on the left. The fourth attempt worked out well and I made a whole 'false transom' from 1/4" ply which I was able to slide into place because of the fact that some of the outer strips were sprung (i.e. not glued up as you can see in the picture below). I have glued it in place with the intension of beefing it up on the inside. Now, all that remains is to cut back the strips and make flush with this transom and fit the 'true' transom later. The important thing was to be able to prepare the hull whilst still inverted to take the fibreglass coating before turning the boat right side up. It is still a headache because I do not have any measurements with regard to camber on the aft deck and so will have to do a fair bit of eyeballing to get it right. I still have a bit of leeway to adjust the final shape of the transom which is most important. To make that very tight turn onto the upper side I have an idea to split the last three 3/4" strips back about 6" using a razor saw to help the process...we'll see how it goes.

    I also agree with both of you about the ease of dealing with the transom when the boat is right way up. However, there is a problem here in terms of 'man' power. My wife and I are in our late 70s and not the fittest folks around. However, we are the only ones around to turn the boat upright so it will only happen once. We only just managed to turn the Melonseed in 2009. Therefore, I have to virtually finish the underside before turning. I am pretty sure that I can compromise and do everything possible with the boat as it is but, well aware and agreeing that it cannot be finished until it is turned right way up.

    The idea I have to tackle the transom is, as you say Jim, the most difficult part which has to be got right, otherwise I will have wasted my time on it. My idea is to stretch a thin plate between the blocks (as below) to provide a working surface then slowly fit into place two half 'false' transoms until they can be butt joined together on the centreline and glued in place. Then the strips can be brought flush with this piece.


    058.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 03:32 PM.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


  30. #100
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Nick : I may have mislead you with that sketch. The card is only a template for a false transom made from ply and will be able to take fixings.
    I knew that, fashion pieces are easier. They go in piece meal, and are stronger especially taking fixings through the plank. Much more width to aim at and you will not be screwing into end grain. Compare the strength of the joint area of that ply false transom at one end with your stem at the other.
    I would still fit them where you are pulling the tumble home in, for their robustness.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  31. #101
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Nick : explain 'fashion pieces' please. I can't visualise them so a sketch or picture would help, especially now that I am working on that tight turn around the transom.

    Also, can you please verify that the latest photos have materialised on my recent post (false transom) above. I can see them but that doesn't mean that everyone can do so.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Yes, I can see your images.
    A fashion piece is a transom frame, similar to a cant frame. It is fitted to fay the plank and transom. Depending on whether the transom is flat or curved, the fashion piece may bend and twist in two directions, where as a cant timber is flat, but at an angle to the vertical or the centre line.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  33. #103
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Nick : This is my interpretation of your description of 'fashion piece' which I would say is not far removed from Graig's WRC blocks. Either way, it is an attempt to beef that ply 'false transom' so as to give strength to the area. There are two parts/quarters to the block each side (I found it easier to 'fashion') and there will be more batons/blocks to top and bottom, ending up with a complete frame that is webbed by the ply. It's all a bit messy but will be strong and out of sight. The photograph was taken on my back looking up and you can see the construction blocks which helped to mount the transom at the correct angle...now removed.

    060.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 03:35 PM.

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    That is pretty much it, although Craigs block might have run for and aft. When you have finished adding timber top and bottom it will be a proper job, and pretty well bomb proof.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #105
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Another picture here to show the transom tidied up and the strips flushed. However, my eye tells me that the top (the bottom here!) curve is too shallow and not quite right to provide the correct camber topside but easily fixed. As far as that tight tumblehome turn is concerned, I almost made it round the bend. I'll get there in the end but maybe not until the boat has been turned.

    061.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 02:32 PM.

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