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Thread: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Ah! at last you're here Tom. You placed a good number of photographs of the original 'Lorelei' on the thread that I ran in the Design/Plans section last year. They were very useful in making the comparison between the real thing and the model hull of this catboat that I made. I was hoping that you might give me permission to use them (I have them on my computer file) from time to time for the same purpose as I develop the larger version on this thread. I never approached the officials/trustees of LIMM when I built the model because I was lead to believe that there were no existing plans for that specific boat in existence. I didn't and don't really feel justified in asking for any approval to build, simply because my current build is not a very serious or professional attempt at building the replica. However, you came on the scene with photographs and measurements of the full size boat that made it just possible for me to have a go.

    So, even though I am not officially in contact with the museum authority, I do hope that this thread will lend itself to some positive publicity in terms of awareness/visitor numbers, etc. for the Long Island Maritime Museum, West Sayville, New York and I do not mean that in any smug sort of way.

    Coming back to the point, Tom, if you give me permission for use (with acknowledgement of course) those photographs where they lend themselves to comparison then I will be very pleased. Otherwise, you could just feed them into your posts at any point you feel is appropriate. Either way would be fine.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Sorry I missed you there, Ben, we must have been beavering away at the keyboard at the same time and you have come up with some interesting suggestions which I will take on board. I have to reiterate my words in the above post about the quality of my build and just quote an appropriate saying, the source of which I have long forgotten... "Badly built boats are not entirely useless, even the worst of them can serve as horrible examples."

    You will have to take my boat build with a pinch of salt...or maybe a tot of whiskey!

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    This photo brings us up to the present where I have started laying cedar strip, so there might be some delay between now and the next post.
    As a matter of interest, my shed is just short of 18' long internally and I have, at best, a couple of feet each side at the widest part of the beam... it's amazing what you can get used to!
    That's the 4' model hull on the left which keeps my enthusiasm going, along with cups of tea that keep appearing from 'stage right' at the correct intervals.

    Last edited by Don Scott; 07-20-2017 at 04:53 AM.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    The vast amount of natural light in your shop will be invaluable when it comes time for fairing the hull. There's nothing like natural daylight to point out all our flaws.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don - feel free to use any of the photo's I have posted to the forum and let me know if you have any special requests.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Tom, many thanks for allowing use of your photographs and to start with I think the 'sharp end' view, below, is a good start just to show the simple, clean and streamlined shape of the hull.
    One question here : I can figure out all the fittings on the foredeck except for the extra pulley block. The two side by side will be for the sail and the gaff halliards but what is the third one for...just forward of those two?

    Last edited by Don Scott; 07-20-2017 at 04:54 AM.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Extra block for topping lift or for a gaff downhaul which I rigged when I had a catboat and handled the halyards from the cockpit.
    Ben Fuller
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Thanks for that info, Ben, and showing me yet another way to spell halyards. Yours is the correct way of course but, I would just like to cite Mark Twain who once said that it was an unimaginative man who could not find at least two ways of spelling a word. I rest my case.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Thanks for that info, Ben, and showing me yet another way to spell halyards. Yours is the correct way of course but, I would just like to cite Mark Twain who once said that it was an unimaginative man who could not find at least two ways of spelling a word. I rest my case.
    I hear what you say, but what is this "iard" in your you hall?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Tom, many thanks for allowing use of your photographs and to start with I think the 'sharp end' view, below, is a good start just to show the simple, clean and streamlined shape of the hull.
    One question here : I can figure out all the fittings on the foredeck except for the extra pulley block. The two side by side will be for the sail and the gaff halliards but what is the third one for...just forward of those two?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Thanks for that info, Ben, and showing me yet another way to spell halyards. Yours is the correct way of course but, I would just like to cite Mark Twain who once said that it was an unimaginative man who could not find at least two ways of spelling a word. I rest my case.
    just another correction, may be nit picking, but the two blocks are both "gaff halliards" one for the throat and one for the peak, there is no "sail halliard" as such as the sail is laced to the gaff and the gaff raises the sail.


    what I want to know is what is the gigantic eye and ring for near the bow...? mooring line? can you imagine scrambling out along that deck to get a mooring in a little choppy sea?!
    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 06-25-2017 at 10:28 PM.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    what I want to know is what is the gigantic eye and ring for near the bow...?
    Forestay?

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    That's a sweet model, Don! This is the first time I've seen the lines and offsets for a Gil Smith boat, that's classified information over at the Museum. There must be a leak, someone in the Penny Baotshop, maybe.

    I think this might be Lorelei, but I'm not sure. I'll have a look around and see what else I've got.


    Watching with interest!


    Jim




    Hi Jim, Don,

    I want to provide some background information on Smith and the collection. I got this second hand and believe It to be true. Al Terry, who pasted a few years ago, was big Smith fan. He had several of his boats and helped the museum with their collection as a trustee. Somehow he was able to get the Smithsonian Museum - Library of Congress to provide assistance to document several examples of Gil Smith boats. Smith always worked from half models and by eye so they took measurements and developed a table of offsets and line drawing for Lorelei, Pauline (a plumb stem cat) and Kid (a P class sloop).

    Back in 2003 The Smithsonian also provided he Museum with a grant to build a replica of a plum stem Gil Smith Catboat. The hull was started in the winter of 2003 2004 and was it brought down to display in D.C. During a summer festival on Museum grounds. The lofting for this boat as well as the patterns and jigs are in the Penney boat shop. I have have been able to sail this boat a number of times and she is fast and nimble.

    please excuse any typos as I am doing this on my phone.

    Tom
    Last edited by Tokamecotom; 06-26-2017 at 07:14 AM. Reason: Typo

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Tom, Could you also add something about the Lorelei history? I can't locate the text I saved last year but seem to remember that she did not get her bottom wet very often.

    You will note that I have not said anything about the rear end on this boat so far. I gave up trying to include the dummy transom as I can't get round the back. All I have done is set
    two blocks at the right angle for when I do make an attempt at fitting it. This photo gives some idea of things but you will have to bear with me until I get my head around it.

    Last edited by Don Scott; 07-20-2017 at 04:57 AM.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Forestay?

    Kevin

    the bolt and ring would not be a good way to anchor a forestay, I think we're seeing the forestay tang just ahead of that eye bolt and just behind the stem head, edge on so it's tough to tell.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    [QUOTE=Daniel Noyes;5271811]the bolt and ring would not be a good way to anchor a forestay, I think we're seeing the forestay tang just ahead of that eye bolt and just behind the stem head, edge on so it's tough to tell.[/QUOTE

    Exactly, the ring is for mooring or a dock line. Notice the bronze strips on the toerail.
    [IMG][/IMG]
    Last edited by Tokamecotom; 06-26-2017 at 02:27 PM. Reason: Add photo

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    While not the Lorelei, this is the boat just to the side of it that I photographed. It has the same mooring ring and the forestay tang that Daniel pointed out, just seen from a better angle.

    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Jones View Post
    While not the Lorelei, this is the boat just to the side of it that I photographed. It has the same mooring ring and the forestay tang that Daniel pointed out, just seen from a better angle.

    Yes, that is Joy, another BB class Gil Smith built a few years earlier than Lorelei.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Have you checked in with the Wooden Boatworks http://woodenboatworks.com/index.php/boats/custom run by Don Costanzo. He was one o the principals in the 1997 build of MADIGAN and has built a number of Gil Smith replicas. I think plans for MADIGAN were drawn by Dave Dillon and are now in the ships plans collection of Mystic Seaport.

    We built a replica of one of the other Gil Smith cats based on one we had in the collection when I was at Mystic, I'll be down there this coming weekend and will see if I can get a photo of the keel structure.

    The interesting part of the Gil Smith boat is that the centerboard drops through the massive keel/ skeg structure which is the boat's real backbone. I would expect to see all of that as a long beam with a slot in it.

    The support or lack of support of centerboards has come up on the UNA thread. We see a number of unsupported trunks on these old boats. I've been thinking about this and wonder whether some of it has to do with the fact that these old boards were mostly designed so that the aft corner of the board stayed in the trunk. And lots of these boats had heathy ledges for the trunk which may have been taking the load. Certainly we see this in some of the pie shaped trunks and boards.
    I wonder if some were supported by floors, like the centerboard version of the Rhodes 19. Those would be hidden by the floorboards in any pictures of the boats.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    I wonder if some were supported by floors, like the centerboard version of the Rhodes 19. Those would be hidden by the floorboards in any pictures of the boats.
    Could be, but as Ben said, that chunky keel, the skeg, and I dare-say the head-ledges tying the upper case to the skeg make for a very strong structure. It is not a case of the CB twisting the case off of its bed logs, but of the skeg twisting that flat bottom off of the keel.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  20. #55
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Could be, but as Ben said, that chunky keel, the skeg, and I dare-say the head-ledges tying the upper case to the skeg make for a very strong structure. It is not a case of the CB twisting the case off of its bed logs, but of the skeg twisting that flat bottom off of the keel.
    Seems like the joint between the bed logs and the keel is the usual problem.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Well folks, you will see that all 'my' photographs have been 'zapped' by Photobucket (almost akin to ransomware!). They seem to be demanding that I pay $399 to have the photos reinstated. Well, I am not going to do that and intend to remove all OF my photographs from their website. I take note that some photographs still remain on this thread that have been placed there by others. I would be pleased if anyone could suggest an alternative method of uploading pics to this site. As for the photos that have been removed, I can only apologise for the inconvenience. I JUST FEEL A LITTLE BIT GUTTED BY ALL THIS. I will attempt to upload photos direct from my PC but that has not worked in previous attempts.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Just discovered that if you click on the dial that has replaced the photograph, it takes you to the photobucket website to view it. That is a bit long winded but it gets you there. I will let things slide for a while to see if their word 'temporary' means what it says... Meantime, sorry for the fuss and bother. (update: discovered this only works for me!)
    Last edited by Don Scott; 07-03-2017 at 11:21 AM.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Just discovered that if you click on the dial that has replaced the photograph, it takes you to the photobucket website to view it. That is a bit long winded but it gets you there. I will let things slide for a while to see if their word 'temporary' means what it says... Meantime, sorry for the fuss and bother.
    I hear that Dropbox might work for you.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #59
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Deleted
    Last edited by Don Scott; 07-10-2017 at 04:45 PM.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Not much to show for the few hours spent but laying strip is a slow process.

    Last edited by Don Scott; 07-20-2017 at 04:58 AM.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Nick, I think we can hang fire on that for the while. I have discovered that you can view the photographs by clicking on those dials which takes you to the image as displayed on photobucket. A bit of a long way round but it gets you there. Just not quite as instant as it was! It seems like photobucket does not like the idea of customers posting too many images directly to 3rd party websites. They are accusing me of overdoing the practice but I have not been posting images at any greater rate than I ever was before.
    No it's not that, they want to charge us $399 for being able to link our own pictures to this and other forums.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

    The power of the web: Anyone can post anything on the web
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  27. #62
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Got into all sorts of trouble when trying to include the sharply angled transom so I removed it and just let the strips find there own position. I will now tailor a preliminary transom to fit the strip using those prepositioned blocks to set it at the correct angle.

    Nick : I think I should have enough stock left over to use your idea of using the same material as the strip for the fillet that fairs the skeg to the bottom of the boat...bed logs did you call it?

    This 3rd Party Hosting thing is still causing a problem and I have found that some of my Photobucket albums have disappeared altogether, which is a bit annoying. There doesn't seem to be any mechanism for removing your photos from their website...(have since discovered that there IS !)


    Last edited by Don Scott; 07-20-2017 at 05:00 AM.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Got into all sorts of trouble when trying to include the sharply angled transom so I removed it and just let the strips find there own position. I will now tailor a preliminary transom to fit the strip using those prepositioned blocks to set it at the correct angle.

    Nick : I think I should have enough stock left over to use your idea of using the same material as the strip for the fillet that fairs the skeg to the bottom of the boat...bed logs did you call it?

    This 3rd Party Hosting thing is still causing a problem and I have found that some of my Photobucket albums have disappeared altogether, which is a bit annoying. There doesn't seem to be any mechanism for removing your photos from their website.
    I wonder if anyone else is having similar problems?

    Everyone using Photobucket is being screwed over. What a shame and what a loss to the Forum. Hopefully you have the photos backed up elsewhere, can post them to another photo site and then post them here.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Yes Rich, I am pleased to say that all my original photo files are held on external hard drives but, as you say, it's a great pity that photobucket have pulled the plug and let so many website visitors down. The ploy is not far short of 'ransomware' and their given reason for disabling (stated to be overuse) is a downright lie. The reason is greed and I have a feeling they will suffer from it. If I could find a way, I would remove all my photo albums from the photobucket website and I am sure that a lot more folks would do the same..

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Nick : I think I should have enough stock left over to use your idea of using the same material as the strip for the fillet that fairs the skeg to the bottom of the boat...bed logs did you call it?
    The bed logs go on the inside, they create the "fillet" or flange that the cb case sides attached to and through which the bolts that hold the entire shebang down to the keel pass through.
    What you are doing is replicating the thick structural sprung keel of the original, and providing the corner fillet that is stabilising the case/skeg. It needs a new name as it is only now possible with the advent of wood reinforced epoxy.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  31. #66
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Just discovered that if you click on the dial that has replaced the photograph, it takes you to the photobucket website to view it. That is a bit long winded but it gets you there. I will let things slide for a while to see if their word 'temporary' means what it says... Meantime, sorry for the fuss and bother.
    This isn't working for me.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Having looked at developments concerning the photobucket fiasco on Jim Ledger's thread 'Lofting the Brewer Catboat' I have downloaded my files from photobucket and then deleted them. They are no use to anyone if they can't be seen in this thread. All I can say is that I will look for another photographic 'host in the sky' at which point I will come back here.
    Jim Ledger is the prominent 'victim' in this sordid episode having had many years work spoiled by what can only be described as 'ransomware' tactics on behalf of photobucket.

    All I can say folks is, vote with your feet and abandon photobucket...don't pay the ransom!

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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Deleted my pictures and account last night.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Deleted.
    Last edited by Don Scott; 07-10-2017 at 05:19 PM. Reason: text correction

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I feel like a bit of a pioneer here! This is another copy and paste exercise, this time using the free service POSTIMAGE.
    I use the word 'free' very loosely as there may be a great movement of 'photo hosts' ready to turn their free services into cash cows on the back of photobucket's recent money grabbing exercise!
    I DO HOPE THE LATTER ARE ABOUT TO SLIDE DOWN THE PAN...you know the one I mean.

    Last edited by Don Scott; 07-10-2017 at 04:53 PM.

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