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Thread: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I'm interested in seeing how you scribe the transom into that space, Don.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    So am I Jim!

    I can hardly wait to see how I get round the problem !!!
    Joking apart, I do have a pattern for the transom that I worked out on paper before the build started. But there are still some pretty acute bevels to workout due to the extreme rake of it... Might be tricky.
    Last edited by Don Scott; 08-09-2017 at 02:07 PM.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Deleted
    Last edited by Don Scott; 08-09-2017 at 02:39 PM.

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    These are the only two pictures I have to show the classic lines of the transom but they help to better explain my earlier text. (both photographs by kind permission of Tom)

    Last edited by Don Scott; 08-09-2017 at 02:39 PM.

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Just wondered if someone could explain to me how to delete a whole post please. I keep getting things wrong and duplicating posts.

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I've been thinking about how the transom might be scribed in. The problem as I see it, is that the oversized transom needs to be offered up to the inside of the planking, but, due to the tumblehome it wont go.

    Here's something to you might consider. Remove the two blocks that would hold the transom in its finished position. Replace them with some blocks on the outside, something that would position the transom on the outside face. That way the transom could be offered up from the inside, holding the oversized blank inside the boat and moving it aft. This would allow marking, taking bevels, chalking-in, fitting in general. A strap or string wrapped around the after end of the boat would prevent the spreading of the sides as the transom is being fitted.

    Just a thought.

    jim

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    ^ Might be easier to do with the boat the right way up. That way you will be working down hand rather than lifting components all of the time.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #113
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    ^Agreed, much easier from above...plus it would be a much better position from which to sight the tumblehome-to-deck transition. This, to me, is the trickiest bit of fairing on the whole boat and needs to be gotten just right from a number of vantage points.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I see a trip to England in Jim's future!
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don: One suggestion for the quarters with their tumblehome:
    We had similar areas on MAGIC and she was cold-molded. The builder, Bent Jespersen, fitted an oversized block of WRC to each quarter to permit fairing in the quick turns of the hull, the "corners" of the transom and the crown of the deck. It is rather complicated to try to loft and show in 3 dimensions, though doable, however, Bent found that using battens and a lot of careful eyeballing, made it all work.
    I am going to have to get off me duff to move photos from the PB site in order to post a view of this, though your pictures show the shape well.
    (Keep an eye out on an upcoming Off Center Harbor video for a view of this.)
    Craig

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    I also agree with both of you about the ease of dealing with the transom when the boat is right way up.However, there is a problem here in terms of 'man' power. My wife and I are in our late 70s and not the fittest folks around. However, we are the only ones around to turn the boat upright so it will only happen once. We only just managed to turn the Melonseed in 2009. Therefore, I have to virtually finish the underside before turning. I am pretty sure that I can compromise and do everything possible with the boat as it is but, well aware and agreeing that it cannot be finished until it is turned right way up.

    The sketch below will hopefully explain the idea I have to tackle the job which, as you say Jim, is the most difficult but has to be got right, otherwise I will have wasted my time on it. My idea is to stretch a thin plate between the blocks to provide a working surface then slowly fit into place two half 'false' transoms until they can be butt joined together on the centreline and glued in place. Then the strips can be brought flush with this piece.

    The 'true' transom can then be shaped, glued and trimmed to fit, leaving the strip ends neatly hidden behind it. I hope I have explained this properly and apologise for the poor sketch.
    Two of those support stringers (outboard) will be extensions of the cockpit framework which will also have to support the aft end of the toe rails as they curve into the centre deck. That job will be a bit of a puzzle in itself but we will sort it when we get there.

    Last edited by Don Scott; 08-09-2017 at 05:28 PM.

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Instead of a false transom, make and fit fashion pieces. Sawn frame timbers in effect. Much more robust and capable of taking fastenings whilst the glue sets up.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #118
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Graig : I might well have to resort to the WRC block to 'get round the bend' if the bead/cove strip cannot be made to follow the contour.
    Nick : I may have mislead you with that sketch. The card is only a template for a false transom made from ply and will be able to take fixings.

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Having bother with POSTIMAGE just now so can't be sure if the photographs download. If someone will be kind enough to let me know.

    After forming the two angle blocks into one 'working' surface, I have created a half pattern transom (in card) with a few abortive attempts seen lying on the left. The fourth attempt worked out well and I made a whole 'false transom' from 1/4" ply which I was able to slide into place because of the fact that some of the outer strips were sprung (i.e. not glued up as you can see in the picture below). I have glued it in place with the intension of beefing it up on the inside. Now, all that remains is to cut back the strips and make flush with this transom and fit the 'true' transom later. The important thing was to be able to prepare the hull whilst still inverted to take the fibreglass coating before turning the boat right side up. It is still a headache because I do not have any measurements with regard to camber on the aft deck and so will have to do a fair bit of eyeballing to get it right. I still have a bit of leeway to adjust the final shape of the transom which is most important. To make that very tight turn onto the upper side I have an idea to split the last three 3/4" strips back about 6" using a razor saw to help the process...we'll see how it goes.


  15. #120
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


  16. #121
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Nick : I may have mislead you with that sketch. The card is only a template for a false transom made from ply and will be able to take fixings.
    I knew that, fashion pieces are easier. They go in piece meal, and are stronger especially taking fixings through the plank. Much more width to aim at and you will not be screwing into end grain. Compare the strength of the joint area of that ply false transom at one end with your stem at the other.
    I would still fit them where you are pulling the tumble home in, for their robustness.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  17. #122
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Nick : explain 'fashion pieces' please. I can't visualise them so a sketch or picture would help, especially now that I am working on that tight turn around the transom.

    Also, can you please verify that the latest photos have materialised on my recent post (false transom) above. I can see them but that doesn't mean that everyone can do so.

  18. #123
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Yes, I can see your images.
    A fashion piece is a transom frame, similar to a cant frame. It is fitted to fay the plank and transom. Depending on whether the transom is flat or curved, the fashion piece may bend and twist in two directions, where as a cant timber is flat, but at an angle to the vertical or the centre line.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #124
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Nick : This is my interpretation of your description of 'fashion piece' which I would say is not far removed from Graig's WRC blocks. Either way, it is an attempt to beef that ply 'false transom' so as to give strength to the area. There are two parts/quarters to the block each side (I found it easier to 'fashion') and there will be more batons/blocks to top and bottom, ending up with a complete frame that is webbed by the ply. It's all a bit messy but will be strong and out of sight. The photograph was taken on my back looking up and you can see the construction blocks which helped to mount the transom at the correct angle...now removed.


  20. #125
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    That is pretty much it, although Craigs block might have run for and aft. When you have finished adding timber top and bottom it will be a proper job, and pretty well bomb proof.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  21. #126
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Deleted...sorry about this duplication thing but I keep getting it wrong
    Last edited by Don Scott; 08-12-2017 at 02:50 PM.

  22. #127
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Another picture here to show the transom tidied up and the strips flushed. However, my eye tells me that the top (the bottom here!) curve is too shallow and not quite right to provide the correct camber topside but easily fixed. As far as that tight tumblehome turn is concerned, I almost made it round the bend. I'll get there in the end but maybe not until the boat has been turned.


  23. #128
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    These are the only two pictures I have to show the classic lines of the transom but they help to better explain my earlier text. (both photographs by kind permission of Tom)

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Another picture here to show the transom tidied up and the strips flushed. However, my eye tells me that the top (the bottom here!) curve is too shallow and not quite right to provide the correct camber topside but easily fixed. As far as that tight tumblehome turn is concerned, I almost made it round the bend. I'll get there in the end but maybe not until the boat has been turned.

    I think that you need to let the tumble home start a bit further foreward. I would be tempted to slit the seams with a fine saw over at least a foot, then pull them into the transom and re-glue them. That will allow the plank to lay more naturally.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  24. #129
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is pretty much it, although Craig's block might have run for and aft. When you have finished adding timber top and bottom it will be a proper job, and pretty well bomb proof.
    Nick is (again) correct.

    Bent's blocking was fitted primarily fore and aft. It appears from your photos that if you add a couple of blocks to what you have under the deck edge and (very probably) make the slits Nick described to release the strips a bit further forward, I think that you should fine it easier to achieve that lovely stern quarter shape you are aiming for by providing enough "meat" to permit the required fairing. Some of the topmost strips right at the deck to hull edge approaching the transom will probably not extend all the way aft, once faired.
    I look forward to seeing how it works out for you, because these are truly lovely shapes.

    Craig

  25. #130
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Craig/Nick : I did mention earlier that I would split the top three strips back by 6", which I did but would accept that I might have extended them further forward to relieve the curve better. I can still do that but need to modify frames 27 and 26 just forward of the transom to let things flow a bit. Looking at photographs of the original, the only point of reference is the toe rail which gently curves in from the gunwale at about Frame 26 and tightens up sharply to meet at the centre aft deck, just in front of the transom. It is going to be fun in working out just what sort of fixings are going to hold all that lot together back there.


    Meanwhile, here is another shot to bring things up to date. You can see that I have added a curved strip to what will be the top of the transom so as to better produce that 'Gil Smith' look. There is still room for adjustment which will have to be done using my magic eye...(the Artful Bodger). I have also started to fix the keel in place which will require further shaping.


  26. #131
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    That does look better. I recommend that you take a photo from just above or on the floor, then flip it 180 to see what she looks like the right way up.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  27. #132
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    "Artful Bodger", very clever, might have to steal that....

    -Dan

  28. #133
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don- there are 14 "run-off" holes on each rail, each is 1/2 inch by 2 inches and are spaced 12 inches apart. They run adjacent to the coaming. I have about a dozen photos to share but first need to figure out the photo thing so I can add them to this thread.

  29. #134
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Many thanks for that information, Tom. I received your PM and sent you an email as requested. I can post those additional photographs on the thread if you wish. When the boat is turned I will be able to show these and a few of your earlier photographs (the ones used in the 1/4 scale model build) to show comparison with the current build, as it develops. They will help to keep me on my toes and get it right.

  30. #135
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don- I forwarded a few photos of the transom that may help, the planking can be readily seen in them. Also take note of the deck planks under the toerail and it's shaping that contributes to the Gil Smith look.

  31. #136
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Thank you, Tom. I have emailed you again. Meanwhile, here is one of Tom's latest photos showing a general shot of the transom on Lorelei. I have some closer views which may appear on their sides...for reasons beyond my control. I will put them up anyway as they reveal some interesting clues as to the tumblehome and transom construction due to the fact that a number of fine cracks have appeared on the white finish coat. Feel free to make any deductions you wish from these clues.


  32. #137
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


  33. #138
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


  34. #139
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


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