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Thread: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    These are the only two pictures I have to show the classic lines of the transom but they help to better explain my earlier text. (both photographs by kind permission of Tom)

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Another picture here to show the transom tidied up and the strips flushed. However, my eye tells me that the top (the bottom here!) curve is too shallow and not quite right to provide the correct camber topside but easily fixed. As far as that tight tumblehome turn is concerned, I almost made it round the bend. I'll get there in the end but maybe not until the boat has been turned.

    I think that you need to let the tumble home start a bit further foreward. I would be tempted to slit the seams with a fine saw over at least a foot, then pull them into the transom and re-glue them. That will allow the plank to lay more naturally.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  2. #107
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is pretty much it, although Craig's block might have run for and aft. When you have finished adding timber top and bottom it will be a proper job, and pretty well bomb proof.
    Nick is (again) correct.

    Bent's blocking was fitted primarily fore and aft. It appears from your photos that if you add a couple of blocks to what you have under the deck edge and (very probably) make the slits Nick described to release the strips a bit further forward, I think that you should fine it easier to achieve that lovely stern quarter shape you are aiming for by providing enough "meat" to permit the required fairing. Some of the topmost strips right at the deck to hull edge approaching the transom will probably not extend all the way aft, once faired.
    I look forward to seeing how it works out for you, because these are truly lovely shapes.

    Craig

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Craig/Nick : I did mention earlier that I would split the top three strips back by 6", which I did but would accept that I might have extended them further forward to relieve the curve better. I can still do that but need to modify frames 27 and 26 just forward of the transom to let things flow a bit. Looking at photographs of the original, the only point of reference is the toe rail which gently curves in from the gunwale at about Frame 26 and tightens up sharply to meet at the centre aft deck, just in front of the transom. It is going to be fun in working out just what sort of fixings are going to hold all that lot together back there.


    Meanwhile, here is another shot to bring things up to date. You can see that I have added a curved strip to what will be the top of the transom so as to better produce that 'Gil Smith' look. There is still room for adjustment which will have to be done using my magic eye...(the Artful Bodger). I have also started to fix the keel in place which will require further shaping.

    064.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 02:34 PM.

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    That does look better. I recommend that you take a photo from just above or on the floor, then flip it 180 to see what she looks like the right way up.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  5. #110
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    "Artful Bodger", very clever, might have to steal that....

    -Dan

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don- there are 14 "run-off" holes on each rail, each is 1/2 inch by 2 inches and are spaced 12 inches apart. They run adjacent to the coaming. I have about a dozen photos to share but first need to figure out the photo thing so I can add them to this thread.

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Many thanks for that information, Tom. I received your PM and sent you an email as requested. I can post those additional photographs on the thread if you wish. When the boat is turned I will be able to show these and a few of your earlier photographs (the ones used in the 1/4 scale model build) to show comparison with the current build, as it develops. They will help to keep me on my toes and get it right.

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Don- I forwarded a few photos of the transom that may help, the planking can be readily seen in them. Also take note of the deck planks under the toerail and it's shaping that contributes to the Gil Smith look.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Thank you, Tom. I have emailed you again. Meanwhile, here is one of Tom's latest photos showing a general shot of the transom on Lorelei. Below is a closer view which appears on its side...for reasons beyond my control.
    002a[1].jpg

    001b[1].jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 03:43 PM.

  10. #115
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    More photo around the transom area... supplied by Tom. I must apologise for some duplication of photos because I can not remember exactly which ones were selected for various posts from an album containing very many more.

    image3_1_2[1].jpgLorelei 28.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-26-2018 at 07:50 AM.

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    A few more pics of transom and hole for rudder post on back of skeg.

    063.jpg064.jpg065.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-26-2018 at 08:07 AM.

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    062.jpg066.jpg

    Two more before turning hull over to give another angle on that sharply raked transom and the forward end of the skeg...with some final shaping to be done.
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-26-2018 at 08:13 AM.

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Well, I have to eat my words about turning the boat only once during the build. I took advantage of the fact that my neighbours have some folks to stay with the necessary muscle power so I grabbed them in a way that wasn't going to take no for an answer (in true Napoleon Hill fashion) and it was all over in five minutes. Yes, of course, it all has to be done again because I haven't yet fibre glassed the hull but there are a few problems that have to be sorted out before I do that. The recent photographs provided by Tom are very welcome but they have also pitched up a few structural questions especially in the area of the transom and that tumblehome which turns so sharply onto the afterdeck.


    So, the first photographs are of the primitive preparation required for a safe tip off the hardback onto the shed floor. No, I haven't been camping next to my beloved boat! It's quite amazing how a woman can suddenly come up with obsolete cushions and pillows from all over the place...but very welcome. The photos speak for themselves and so we end up with Lorelei junior the right way up on a lowered hardback...not quite as pretty as when she was upside down, but that will hopefully change.

    For a start, I have an idea that she is a little short on free board so I might add another couple of strips to heighten the sides (that's only an inch and a half) which should not upset those beautiful slim line features. However, I am not sure if that, in turn, will upset the shapely transom/tumblehome combination. The top strip will be oak to add a bit of hardwearing rubbing strip to the gunwale even though the fibre glass should take care of that. Even so, the oak will give no such protection in the last three feet or so because it will already have turned up on to the deck by then in order develop the very tight tumblehome.

    Another interesting feature, which Tom has already pointed out, is the way the toe rail sits on top of the deck edging plank which is itself set above and back from the top hull plank/strip about 1/4 inchor so. I will show photos of these as I progress. There are a few more things to puzzle out but this is enough to be going on with.

    067.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 03:48 PM.

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    So far, So good. After having slid the strong back into the front garden, it was then cut down by six inches. The boat was elevated by using cross beams and crocodile jacks with brick pillars and the strong back wheeled back into place. Where there's a will, there's a way! I was very relieved to find that there was no distortion in the hull which at this stage is still pretty flimsy and only held together with wood glue.

    068.jpg072.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 03:52 PM.

  15. #120
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    The 'next phase' started well enough but slowly slid down the pan. The trouble with building boats without plans/instructions means that you have to stay ahead of the game (like in the game of chess), the more moves you can store in the brain the better. I thought my idea of adding a couple of strips to the height of the hull sides would work fine...wrong! It would have compromised the ultimate shape (depth) of the that beautiful transom but I got away with removing just one of them. To be absolutely sure of the graceful sheer line and be sure that the after deck would flow into it, I had no alternative but to do some three dimensional lofting to get that flow just right. I have managed to do it after a lot of trial and error but kept the 'glue pot' out of the way until I have no other option but to use it.

    I have used the MDF moulds to good advantage and you can see that they have been cut to form a jig that defines the line of the side structure of the cockpit. The photograph below shows the port side which I am using to prove the structural method and fair that sweeping curve which will then be used to complete the starboard side. Both planks (cockpit side and sheer clamp)require scarfed extensions so that they run the full length of the boat. I have strayed from what I can see in Tom's photographs with regard to the sheer clamp. In stead of it supporting the carlins from underneath, I have set it to the height of the top hull plank so I will have to use small knees on each odd numbered frame to hold it all together. The hull is like an eggshell (1/4" thick) so I will also double the thickness at the topstrip...every little helps. I think I will leave the boat upright for now and carry on cutting and dry fitting all the parts of the deck support structure before turning it upside down to do the fibreglassing.


    074.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 03:59 PM.

  16. #121
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Two photographs from Tom showing starboard sheer clamp looking forward and the starboard side lazarette (I hope that's right). The tail of the sheer clamp extends just beyond frame 26. The large bolt with nut on the same frame (26) is the starboard fixture for the traveller bar just behind the cockpit and the smaller one on frame 25 I believe to be one of the fixings for the cockpit coaming. The transom can be seen but not clear/sharp enough to see how it is formed.


    2158075100088484686S500x500Q85catbo.jpg007[1].jpg

    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 04:14 PM.

  17. #122
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Still beavering away at the deck framework and it is coming along slowly. I have decided to use all my spare WRC where ever I can and beef it up where necessary. I managed to figure out a way of dealing with that severe stern tumblehome and at the moment it looks more like maritime marquetry. The sheathing base for the deck strips is 3.6mm hardwood ply and I learned a little bit about quality of this type of material. From what I can gather (internet reading) the old WBP (Water Boil Proof) standard is obsolete but, that might only apply in the EU area. Apparently there are three standards EN636-1, EN636-2 and EN636-3. You can read the detail for yourselves on internet and I hope I haven't started an avalanche of discussion on the subject . I have chosen to use the middle grade which should be sealed against moisture absorption.


    I have taken a few photographs which I will post up for anyone who is interested. I have sorted the stem head at last and working on the stern and rudder post trunk. There are all sorts of things to do and fittings to be found before I can start sheathing and gluing up. If I am doing anything wrong or missing something then please have a go at me.

    077.jpg078.jpg080.jpg073.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 04:23 PM.

  18. #123
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    A few more photos of the original from Tom...
    Lorelei 4.jpgf4ea7d78.jpgLorelei 11.jpg
    Lorelei 17.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-24-2018 at 04:41 PM.

  19. #124
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"


  20. #125
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Just wondered what your thoughts were on using a plastic tube as a liner for the rudder shaft housing?
    Everything you see in the preceding photographs is reversible as I have not glued up yet.

  21. #126
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Will you be glassing the interior as is normally done on a boat planked with 1/4" thick stock? Or is the addition of ribs going to compensate for that?
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  22. #127
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Rich,

    Yes, I have enough fibreglass to do inside and out. I ditched that awful chopped strand matt and bought 6oz woven as you suggested earlier and will do the inside first then add the intermediate Ash ribs. My idea is to panel between each main frame/rib and then use a top hat strip over each rib to join it all up. I don't suppose that is very good practice from a strength point of view but I don't want it to look too obvious that the whole thing is gobbed up with fibre glass. I have left those five MDF formers in place so as to support the boat on the strong back when I turn it over for external glassing. It is a bit of a headache trying to work out the sequence of doing the build so as I don't paint myself into a corner. For instance, I will have to see about the metalwork that must go in before I can place the deck sheathing. There are six metal fittings on the forward king plank and five behind the cockpit. I haven't made these parts yet but figure to make them from stainless steel. I am not much of a metalworker so may have to order it. I could buy off the shelf parts but I would like the fittings to look something like the original if possible.

    I don't know what you think about the plastic tube liner for the rudder shaft. I am a bit worried about bonding so I might make an epoxy/glass tube of the same size which will bond to the trunk structure. It might not be too much of an issue anyway because, as far as I understand, the trunk is set pretty much above the waterline.

  23. #128
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    When building my launch, I had the same concerns about putting in a plastic tube for the rudder/motor post. I ended up making my own out of fiberglass. I took a piece of PVC pipe, wrapped it in multiple layers of wax paper and wrapped that in multiple layers of 4" fiberglass tape. Built it up to a thickness of 1/8", then pulled out the PVC pipe, leaving me with a very strong tube that bonded well to the hull.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  24. #129
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Sounds good, Rich, I'll give that a try. I am getting very close to sealing up the stern perimeter which will allow me to finish that tumblehome and final shaping of the transom. I could have sheathed that whole area with one piece of ply but I have to leave the central area open until I fit the metalwork...the horse (which I wrongly termed the traveller last time around!) and pins/bolts for fixing the aft end of the cockpit coaming. Anyway, I will take a couple of photos as I do the work.

  25. #130
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Scott View Post
    Sorry if I missed this earlier, but what wood did you use for the transom? Looks much like the cypress I used on my Coquina.
    Beautiful shape BTW.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  26. #131
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Reynard38,

    The wood is Western Red Cedar (WRC) which I tried to match up from the ample stock I had left over from the strip hull. The joins in the five planks show up because of the epoxy used but should look better after being rubbed down, glassed and finished.
    It might sound a bit boring but the deck framework and king planks are also made of the same stuff as will be the deck strips. The latter should be Port Orford Pine but I can't think of where I could possibly get that here in the UK.
    I know that WRC is not very tough and easily marked but I intend to glass the deck as well. Not sure yet how I can define the individual deck strips. The original 'Lorelei' deck strips look as though they have very thin gaps filled with black sealant of some sort...pitch maybe?

  27. #132
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    you will not need to glass the inside, that will just make for alot of work and clean up and extra weight, just epoxy coat it... may be a very light cloth on the deck, 4 oz should be enough but if you mix epoxy and graphite to glue the deck planking together you will have a strong tight deck and the plank lines will show up black, no glass needed.

  28. #133
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Music to my ears, Daniel. I am very tempted to follow your advice here for all the good reasons you have given. I was not looking forward to the pain of glassing the interior and I am keen to keep the weight down.
    Just a thought about the graphite...is there a danger of staining the deck strip facings? I'm not too bothered about that though as a bit of discolouration might add an antique effect here and there.

  29. #134
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    you will not need to glass the inside, that will just make for alot of work and clean up and extra weight, just epoxy coat it... may be a very light cloth on the deck, 4 oz should be enough but if you mix epoxy and graphite to glue the deck planking together you will have a strong tight deck and the plank lines will show up black, no glass needed.
    There can be some debate on this. The 1/4" planking has very little strength and the fiberglass doesn't just waterproof the hull, but gives it structural integrity, strengthening the hull and added much needed stiffness. To work properly, it must be done inside and out. Something or other to do with compression. The widely spaced ribs you've got aren't going to provide that.
    Look at every 1/4" strip planked boat on this forum and you'll see them glassed inside and out.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  30. #135
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Well I am being torn two ways now. I can see the merit on both sides of the coin...savings in time, mess, clean up, weight on the one side and strength/integrity of a double skin/sandwich on the other. I have to lean towards the latter because the strips were laid, in the first place, using white wood glue. This glue also lightly holds the strip to the main ribs to which they were attached in the initial build. My reasoning was that a good brodling (a Barnsley, South Yorks, word akin to fettling) with epoxy would seep its way into the strip/rib joints on the inside to give the required strength. A layer of glass in addition will do no harm. As for the rib spacing...those that were placed in the initial build conform to the hackmatack ones in the original catboat which on my 2/3 scale down are set at 14" centres. These will be interspersed by Ash ribs at a later stage, so making the ribs only 7" apart. I would dearly like to kick the interior layup into touch but, I think I had better lay aside my idle streak and do the job properly.

    In the mean time I have just ordered a list of SS items which include all the deck and shroud wire fittings except the horse and the chain plates which I will have to 'fashion' myself.


    Tom : If you read this I hope you might help me with a close up photo of the cleat just in front of the cockpit. I assume that the two missing from the c/b trunk top would probably be the same design as that one. I would like to get somewhere near the shape of them by reworking the 'off the shelf' ones I have ordered.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-26-2018 at 08:00 AM.

  31. #136
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Certainly the builders of stripped racing canoe would have forgone the glassed interior if they could. Same with builders and designers like Nick Schade. You do have the frames working for you but you also have a higher loaded object. Some structural testing would help answer questions and you may find the research done in the strip community. You could take the risk.... It's too bad that the frames that you have in the boat now were not meant for removal as that would make interior glassing easier. Any additional frames should go in after interior glassing. Btw: How are the strips held to the frames? Structural glue? Or just little dabs?
    Last edited by Ben Fuller; 09-12-2017 at 05:43 AM.
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  32. #137
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Ben,

    Yes, I will add the Ash frames after interior glassing which I have already started at the stern but only one required in this area which will be Frame 24 (just behind the aft cockpit bulkhead (Frame 23) with the double doors.
    I used just enough white glue to hold the strips to the main frames so as to allow the epoxy to penetrate the joints when glassing up.

    Thinking about anchoring (epoxying) the horse in oversized blind holes drilled in the mounting block...any thoughts/comments would be welcome here. This method would make for a much easier build and the horse could be fitted after the deck strips have been placed.

  33. #138
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    If you have only used light glue to install strips, can you glass the outside first, then remove the frames temporarily while the interior is glassed?
    You could then reinstall them after a bit of trimming.
    It sounds like work, but may be less than glassing between them. It will end up tidier and you will also spread the load of the frames better across the glassed surface.

  34. #139
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    Slacko,

    That's a good, practical idea but not one I can follow for various reasons and I have already committed to interior first and doing it right now. I have to get those Ash frames in and the perimeter ply sheathing for the deck fixed down. The reason for this is that my plan is to bring the exterior glass right over onto this sheathing as an overlap which will give extra strength in the shear area. So, the exterior glassing will have to wait a while yet. I now have to go out and find some Ash. We used to have a fine supplier of various timbers at a place called 'John Boddy', Boroughbridge, Yorks. but they went bust a while back and there is nowhere close now...I had to go to Essex for my WRC. There is a huge Ash tree in my neighbours garden next door...I wonder if he would miss a branch or two?

  35. #140
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    Default Re: Gil Smith catboat "Lorelei"

    A gentleman from Athens, Greece, sent a PM asking for copies of my plans for 'Lorelei' . Unfortunately I have no plans as such and have built the boat by making sketches as I went along and with the invaluable help from Tom in the form of photographs and measurements.
    I suggested that he should go for something similar in shape/size for which he could acquire plans and promised to show him a photo of my Melonseed (first build) that I did about 10 years ago. Plans for this 16' skiff are available from the Woodenboat.com plans service, price $90. Melonseed is also a beautiful design (Mark Barto) and handling is a dream...I never capsized her once!
    109 - Copy.jpg110.jpg
    Last edited by Don Scott; 04-26-2018 at 08:19 AM.

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