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Thread: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

  1. #71
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    This is another major embarrassment for the Navy.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Dude, it was on the tv news, not the interweb, so no linky. And not worth the effort to find one - just one of those dumb little animated sequences following the track of the container ship, that they love to throw together to fill in time and make it look like they know what they're talking about. Which seems unlikely at this stage.

    Pete
    There are several ship tracking websites, but you now need to subscribe to access them, was probably lifted from one of those.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #73
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    I KNOW they do this.
    They have done it to me.
    Navy vessels ,carrying a small Coast Guard group, sneaking up on me at night in the Caribbean. I have heard their engines throbbing, but my little Furuno radar not seeing a thing .Navy alone cannot board legally, CG can , So they sneak up , open up with the lights, which is freaking scary, hail you on the VHF, then the big zode comes over.
    False equivalence. A USCG sneaking up on a suspicious boat suspected of smuggling drugs is some what different to a destroyer running in the middle of a busy shipping lane.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #74
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    It's PEOPLE they lookin for Nick, not drugs. They run the passports of all aboard and only check areas large enough to stash a body.
    They run dark and jam radar... is my point.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    It's PEOPLE they lookin for Nick, not drugs. They run the passports of all aboard and only check areas large enough to stash a body.
    They run dark and jam radar... is my point.
    Nit pick. Does not make your experience any more relevant to this thread.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  6. #76
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Nit pick. Does not make your experience any more relevant to this thread.
    Perhaps you should look at your own tag line. I've had similar experiences to Bruce and as I''ve stated before on this thread, I've had many scores of sightings of US Navy vessels and have never seen any display an AIS signal, it would be counter productive to their mission. I've also seen Coast Guard vessels without lights or AIS. Recently off Jacksonville I was standing by a "Mayday" call, along with several other boats, when a Coast Guard cutter appeared out of nowhere and took over the rescue, and prompted us to leave (after I'd exercised my schoolboy French).

  7. #77
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Perhaps you should look at your own tag line. I've had similar experiences to Bruce and as I''ve stated before on this thread, I've had many scores of sightings of US Navy vessels and have never seen any display an AIS signal, it would be counter productive to their mission. I've also seen Coast Guard vessels without lights or AIS. Recently off Jacksonville I was standing by a "Mayday" call, along with several other boats, when a Coast Guard cutter appeared out of nowhere and took over the rescue, and prompted us to leave (after I'd exercised my schoolboy French).
    We were not discussing coastguard cutters (Off Japan???) going covert in US waters nor AIS, which we know was off as there was no track shown. We are discussing a large warship on passage running in another nations shipping lanes, which if with out nav lights is an entirely different matter.

    How many 6900te displacement warships have you met running without nav lights at 02.00 in the morning?

    People need to get a grip until more data is available.
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 06-19-2017 at 10:19 AM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #78
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Dunno how it works at sea, but in the Great Lakes commercial shipping uses AIS technology that transmits their position and course continuously. Commercial aircraft likewise. I would assume this is used in shipping lanes as well.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    How many 6900te displacement warships have you met running without nav lights at 02.00 in the morning?
    Obviously it's impossible to tell, but five I can think of right away (I spend a lot of time near the mouth of the Chesapeake)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    People need to get a grip until more data is available.
    Quite so.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Dunno how it works at sea, but in the Great Lakes commercial shipping uses AIS technology that transmits their position and course continuously. Commercial aircraft likewise. I would assume this is used in shipping lanes as well.
    Yes, the track posted on the BBC website
    uses AIS data, several organisations run tracking websites so that if you subscribe you can follow the shipping anywhere in the worlds oceans. Warships rarely have them turned on, but as can be seen from the plot, the container ship did.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  11. #81
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Yes, the track posted on the BBC website
    uses AIS data, several organisations run tracking websites so that if you subscribe you can follow the shipping anywhere in the worlds oceans. Warships rarely have them turned on, but as can be seen from the plot, the container ship did.
    According to the news, the NHK has revised their time of impact with the destroyer to approximately 1:30 AM local time with an hour long delay before reporting to the coast guard.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  12. #82
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    "We were not discussing coastguard cutters (Off Japan???) going covert in US waters nor AIS,"
    I was not discussing a CG cutter, but a large guided missile US Navy Warship. And not in US waters .

  13. #83
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Military aircraft use the airborne version of AIS when not in combat ops. Surprised military shipping wouldn't.
    - Mike

  14. #84
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    I KNOW they do this.
    They have done it to me.
    Navy vessels ,carrying a small Coast Guard group, sneaking up on me at night in the Caribbean. I have heard their engines throbbing, but my little Furuno radar not seeing a thing .Navy alone cannot board legally, CG can , So they sneak up , open up with the lights, which is freaking scary, hail you on the VHF, then the big zode comes over.
    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    "We were not discussing coastguard cutters (Off Japan???) going covert in US waters nor AIS,"
    I was not discussing a CG cutter, but a large guided missile US Navy Warship. And not in US waters .
    I do apologise, I missed the "Navy vessel" comment.
    Still irrelevant, as covert operations catching smuggling in Caribbean water is in no way the same as being on passage in Japanese waters.
    Anyone know what the Fitzgerald was doing? There is not a lot on the ships web nor Facebook pages.

    Bottom line is that if the US navy acts like dicks in their local waters, does not make running into a container ship in the Pacific OK.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  15. #85
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    The track certainly looks like they collided, made a u turn after the collision, went back to check on the damaged destroyer, then resumed course.
    Tom

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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision


  17. #87
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    This paper contains some information on accidents involving naval vessels of all nations between 1945 and 1988. I doubt if accidents stopped in 1988, but from 1945 to 1988 there were 184 collisions between naval vessels and civilian ships.

    https://fas.org/wp-content/uploads/2...s1945-1988.pdf
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  18. #88
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    The track certainly looks like they collided, made a u turn after the collision, went back to check on the damaged destroyer, then resumed course.
    Shall we run a book on it?
    My guess is that having reversed heading where that dark blue icon sits 25 minutes before the collision, they collided at the point the track turns south west towards the cyan icon. The container ship then backtracked to the north before turning to north of east again on course for Tokyo.

    Naturally just a guess in the absence of the destroyers track.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #89
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Shall we run a book on it?
    My guess is that having reversed heading where that dark blue icon sits 25 minutes before the collision, they collided at the point the track turns south west towards the cyan icon. The container ship then backtracked to the north before turning to north of east again on course for Tokyo.

    Naturally just a guess in the absence of the destroyers track.
    It is my understanding that the timing of the collision may not have been after the u turn. At least that is what I have read this am. This article supports that and actually show the collision could have occurred at the point I was guessing.

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rald.html?_r=0
    Tom

  20. #90
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Collision at 1:30 am, turns 180 to return to site at 2:00.

    "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice

  21. #91
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    It is my understanding that the timing of the collision may not have been after the u turn. At least that is what I have read this am. This article supports that and actually show the collision could have occurred at the point I was guessing.

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...rald.html?_r=0
    From the BeeB report, post #15
    Marine traffic records suggest the ACX Crystal made a sudden U-turn roughly 25 minutes before the collision with the USS Fitzgerald. It is not clear why it changed course.
    Marine traffic records suggest it was travelling at 14.6 knots (27km/h) at the time of the collision.
    However it looks as though the NYT has subscribed to live tracking, and with the updated time of the collision, it all becomes clear.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  22. #92
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    The damage tells a story about the Fitzgeralds heading






    The Fitzgerald must have been running from the North of West to South of East for those two sets of damage to appear as they do.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  23. #93
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    It's the ships bulb that killed those guys .

  24. #94
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    ^ Most likely. The CO was off watch and had to be recovered from the wreckage of his cabin, but the seven reported lost were off watch below decks.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  25. #95
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Is it an optical illusion with the sheer line, or is the destroyer buckled in the middle?

  26. #96
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by birlinn View Post
    Is it an optical illusion with the sheer line, or is the destroyer buckled in the middle?
    Probably some, but she's listing a bit to starboard.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  27. #97
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I do apologise, I missed the "Navy vessel" comment.
    Still irrelevant, as covert operations catching smuggling in Caribbean water is in no way the same as being on passage in Japanese waters.
    Anyone know what the Fitzgerald was doing? There is not a lot on the ships web nor Facebook pages.

    Bottom line is that if the US navy acts like dicks in their local waters, does not make running into a container ship in the Pacific OK.
    Yes, COLREGS apply regardless of the ship, its status, or nationality.

    John Welsford
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  28. #98
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    The Arleigh Burke class has a kink designed into the sheer there. Possibly part of its stealth design?

  29. #99
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Hazard View Post
    The Arleigh Burke class has a kink designed into the sheer there. Possibly part of its stealth design?
    No not stealth, it is just cheaper to build straight lines than nice curves,
    The stealth is in the 6 degree hull flare and slope of all of the upper works surfaces, and the avoidance of 90 degree angles.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #100
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    ... is in no way the same as being on passage in Japanese waters...
    Bottom line is that if the US navy acts like dicks in their local waters, does not make running into a container ship in the Pacific OK.
    The Fitzgerald is stationed in Yokosukah making this her 'home waters' as much as any I'd guess. I thought they were running exercises with the Japanese navy?
    "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken." (stolen from TomF )

  31. #101
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by B_B View Post
    The Fitzgerald is stationed in Yokosukah making this her 'home waters' as much as any I'd guess. I thought they were running exercises with the Japanese navy?
    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Yes, COLREGS apply regardless of the ship, its status, or nationality.

    John Welsford
    'Nuff said.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  32. #102
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    It is impossible to ascertain the facts of a collision between ships from the "story" of one ship only.

    In the Admiralty Division of the High Court in London, which is where most collisions are litigated regardless of where they happen, there is a special procedure which involves the filing of a sealed document called a Preliminary Act, which is, put simply, a series of answers to standard questions which in effect tell the story of the events leading up to the collision as recounted by one ship. The other ship files a similar document. Both are sealed by the Court and not looked at until all proceedings are complete and the matter is set down for trial, at which point the lawyers for both vessels attend the unsealing of the Preliminary Acts. The discrepancy between the two accounts is usually huge.

    (Yes, I used to be a collision and salvage lawyer..)
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  33. #103
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    It is impossible to ascertain the facts of a collision between ships from the "story" of one ship only.

    (Yes, I used to be a collision and salvage lawyer..)
    A C B,
    Would the transfer of energy in what looks to be an oblique overtaking collision from the photos of the damage, be enough to turn the container ship through 90 degrees off its course?
    The reason that I ask is that there is speculation that the ACX Crystal was running on autopilot with no one on the bridge.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  34. #104
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Wouldn't an autopilot maintain the course, unless it was disabled(maybe from the collision(more speculation))?
    the plotted track would have only a dogleg in it.
    R
    Sleep with one eye open.

  35. #105
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    Default Re: US Navy destroyer severey damage din collision

    Some of what we know.

    The Fitzgerald has 105000 horsepower, it's published top sped is in excess of 30 knots, probably around 40 knots.
    The AIS transponder on the merchant ship was on, that's why we have the track.
    The collision happened some time before it was reported, which could explain some of the movements.
    American warships customarily don't run lights or AIS
    The Fitzgerald has reversing props and can stop in it's own length of a little more.

    From this I surmise: The speculation that the merchant ship deliberately rammed the warship, is completely without merit, the warship has double the speed, at least 10 times the maneuverability.

    I speculate from the track that the merchant ship, was pushed sideways by the collision, and some time later turned around and went to help the American ship.

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