Vinyl on Wood

[hdsteele]

Hesitated for days before posting this as I have read a lot of posts regarding the use of vinyl graphics for boat transoms and don't want to start a blasphemy! war again! But will ask...I have a very nice older Grand Banks trawler, fiberglass, that needs renaming. I will have to use a new transom board as well as side nav light boards due to name length. I am going to use vinyl lettering and see how it looks. If it is not what I hope then I will triple my cost and go with hand painting. My question is on the proper way to apply these to new teak wood. I am in South Florida with the heat and sun so need to protect them as much as possible. Should I use a penetrating epoxy, maybe two coast, apply the graphics and then cover with 6-8 coats of high UV varnish. Varnish first and apply graphics on top? Don't want to star a varnish war either! Don't know if you guys heard but it seems people vary on their opinions of varnish I would like to narrow down my choice for a good Florida-worthy varnish for this application. So far I am looking at Epifames, Captains or Schooner 96. those seem to be high UV.

Any comments are greatly appreciated!

[johngsandusky]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

I would varnish first and then apply the letters. It's easier, and I don't think you want varnish over the vinyl. A vertical surface like your transom will not suffer from sunlight as badly as a horizontal surface.

[jpatrick]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

I would ask the vinyl supplier if varnishing over is a good idea or not. If it isn't, then you must ask yourself how you will revarnish the name boards without mucking up the vinyl. If it were me using vinyl letters, I think I'd opt for a name board material that isn't wood. There are many to choose from and many will complement your boat.

Jeff

[Todd Bradshaw]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

Don't varnish over vinyl. It is not totally dimensionally stable and will eventually shrink a bit, screwing up the varnish. You would also eventually see varying rates of splotchy yellowing on the letters, due to uneven varnish top coat thickness. Epoxy, or epoxy products are about the lowest UV resistance you can get, so I'd avoid them as well. Painted letters or vinyl letters on a well varnished surface are probably your best bet.

[Jay Greer]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

In addition to other things, I am a sign painter and have done my share of boat lettering over the years. I understand that vinyl letters are a bit less expensive than the initial cost of a painted name at the onset. However, I can spot a vinyl name, even at a distance. I see it as having a phony mechanical look, when compared to the balance and flow of hand lettering. It is lacking in life! Why would a proud father send his daughter to the Prom in a vinyl dress? A well done painted name should last a very long time! This is because it can be varnished over and, if you maintain your varnish properly. It can last many many years and will be a pleasant thing to view and appreciate. It is the icing on the cake; the final touch of class on a wooden work of art!
Jay

[hdsteele]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

Thanks for the replies and after lurking in here for years (can't remember my original user name so registered new) I am well aware of Mr. Jay Greer's feelings about vinyl! Being a life long sailor and wooden boat guy I have to say that I share the same sentiment. However, the $3,000 or so needed to go A+ on this in gold leaf and paint for the transom, hail, and two nav light side boards is just not easy to swallow right now. I sort of decided I will give the vinyl a shot to see what I see. If it is so bad than I can just remove, re-varnish, and go with paint at another time. I'm not really convinced I will actually do it but I am moving that way. Vinyl will be here tomorrow and I will give it a look. Worst case is I spent $150 I didn't have to and will take them as samples for the style I want painted on. One other option is to use the vinyl on the nav boards and go with paint for the transom. Not sure. Vinyl company says varnish over is fine but don't use epoxy or poly as it will curl the letters.

The more I type the more distasteful this gets. Once a wooden boat guy always a wooden boat guy I guess....

[pcford]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

Thanks for the replies and after lurking in here for years (can't remember my original user name so registered new) I am well aware of Mr. Jay Greer's feelings about vinyl! Being a life long sailor and wooden boat guy I have to say that I share the same sentiment. However, the $3,000 or so needed to go A+ on this in gold leaf and paint for the transom, hail, and two nav light side boards is just not easy to swallow right now. I sort of decided I will give the vinyl a shot to see what I see. If it is so bad than I can just remove, re-varnish, and go with paint at another time. I'm not really convinced I will actually do it but I am moving that way. Vinyl will be here tomorrow and I will give it a look. Worst case is I spent $150 I didn't have to and will take them as samples for the style I want painted on. One other option is to use the vinyl on the nav boards and go with paint for the transom. Not sure. Vinyl company says varnish over is fine but don't use epoxy or poly as it will curl the letters.

The more I type the more distasteful this gets. Once a wooden boat guy always a wooden boat guy I guess....

I totally agree with Jay. The estimate of $3000 for this work in hand painted gold leaf seems far out of reality. I can't recall any more than $1000 for a gold leaf transom. If you want to go more cheaply, forego the gold leaf. I once priced the cost of hand painted (no gold leaf) against stick on letters and the numbers were more or less the same.

[hdsteele]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

Thanks. The price was based on 4 boards not just the transom. 2 side nav light names, transom and hail. Transom was the biggest of course with 15 5" letters about 48" long. I did call several local painters but I'll be darned if I can get a call back. Must be a good time for them. Jay, do you know anyone in my area, Jupiter/Stuart/West Palm Florida that you can refer me to? That's a long way from you but you've been doing it a long time.

[jpatrick]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

There is another option that combines the ease of vinyl with the authenticity of paint or gold leaf. Have the vinyl sign shop make you a stencil. This is essentially all that surrounds the letters. You use the surround and throw away the letters. A big difference is in the material used... you must ask for a stencil material. These have a much less aggressive adhesive. They are meant to be removed. I have used a product called Gerber Mask and find it to be quite suitable.

In use, you would apply the stencil, apply paint, remove stencil and varnish over everything once the paint has dried. Gold leafing works much the same way. I know this isn't the same thing as having the lettering done by hand. The computer simply is too good so it lacks the human element. But, there are a lot of fonts out there.... maybe one is close enough.



I hope this helps.

Jeff

[Breakaway]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

I had a local artist / art student paint the name on my fiberglass boat. Came out pretty good. I did it for the better look. ( Funny eh? even with a plastic boat I didn't want plastic letters )

I would guess this work would not meet the muster of a pro like Jay, or PC Ford, but it only cost me a few hundred, plus I paid for the brushes she needed. It looks better to me than vinyl graphics. Just a suggestion

Kevin

[John-1948]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

X2 on the stencil - never varnish over paint or vinyl graphics - just repaint every two or three years.
once the first step is accomplished, it is like a coloring book - just stay within the lines.
I have 45 years as a custom sign painter and fabricator of dimensional signs under my belt.
visit my friend's website - Signs by Renee'. she is in marathon, FL. Most of her work is freehand but she
also uses a vinyl paint mask if the situation warrants. http://www.signsbyrenee.net/boat_lettering.html
I also have another friend in Melbourne, FL if you ever get up that way.

you can also make your own paper pattern and run over the lines with a pounce wheel.
after the paper pattern is in position and held firmly with masking tape, put some powdered
chalk in a sock with a half cup of rice and pounce the outlines. After removing the paper,
a light coating of "Aquanet" hair spray will keep the powder from blowing away.
use a good quality foam brush and paint your graphics with a good quality oil based paint.
all excess powder can be removed with a mild soap solution - let dry - wala - done.

you could also visit a storefront business such as Fast Signs, Signs Now, Kinkos, Staples, etc. to have a paint mask or paper pattern made.

[hdsteele]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

Thanks to everyone for their ideas and comments. John, thanks for the referrals. Actually Melbourne is 1/2 the distance for me than Marathon and I am going up there next week so a name would be helpful. I am surprised (remember my ignorance though) that you say never varnish over paint. I don't think I ever heard that before but again I don't know much. I thought a good UV varnish would protect the paint. Not looking forward to having the name redone every year or two and, like the vinyl, would make it difficult to revarnish the boards as needed?? No?

[Todd Bradshaw]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

Paint is basically its own UV blocker to some extent. It will eventually chalk and slowly wear away, but the pigment at the surface prevents most of it from structural deterioration, unlike varnish. I varnished over white enamel once. I sprayed the varnish, so you would think it had pretty even coverage. A couple years later it was covered with yellowed splotches due to thickness variations in the varnish. I ended up having to repaint the white - this time on top of everything else. I'm sure you could varnish over a lot of dark or multi-colored stuff, maybe even gold paint and get away with it, but it's pretty risky over really light paint colors.

[John-1948]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

if you read Jay Greer's response carefully, everything he says is on point.
but you must pick up on the key words "if you" in just about everything.
"if you" maintain your boat properly
"if you" maintain your varnish and paint properly.
"if you" maintain your - - - - - - -
with proper maintenance, painted graphics will last a very long time.
vinyl on the other hand has a 2-5 year life span on the water and then
it will crack and peel and must be removed, which is very tedious on a wood surface.
paint can be sanded and repainted several times with no ill effects.

this is a fabulous forum for building, repairing and maintaining wood boats.
if anyone here paints their boat any color, do they come back and varnish over the paint ??
nooooooo they don't. same with a sign. the paint itself takes care of itself. just like varnish.
ask any TRUE sign painter (not a vinyl sticker shop guy) and they will tell you the same.
I don't know why, but it seems the general public thinks Polyurethane is a protectall for everything
outside...... this is just my own personal professional advice. and opinions are like noses, everybody has one.
it is sad that the sign shops have not called you back.
but, this falls into your lap as exactly what do you want to do..... and what are your brush skills.
I will contact my friend in Melbourne today and see what he can do for you.

in the meantime, could you please email me some photos of your boat transom and what words
and graphics you want to put on it ?? [email protected].


.

[hdsteele]

Re: Vinyl on Wood

Yes opinions are like noses...but...some noses are just better than others! I know one doesn't varnish over paint on a boat. I am just confused on how to keep up the varnish on the name board. the trick I found with my boats over the years (and its old news) is to re-varnish before it needs it. A couple of coats and off you go. If it gets damaged, peeling, water intrusion, etc. then it is too late. Go back to Step 1. Anyway, yes I will send you my pictures and appreciate you comments. I am now investigating having the names carved then the letters painted gold. Lord knows what that will cost!