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Thread: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

  1. #1
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    Default I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    ... what is to be done?

    This is orthodox 3/8" teak glued and screwed to ply.





    There's just one really bad place - under the port foredeck bollards. I can get to that, scarph in new ply and lay teak over the top again.

    There are other places like this:




    one can obviously rout down to the ply and refill with black gloop.

    The stanchions need to be re-sited on teak pads along with the bollards and other deck hardware.

    Ultimately however this boat will need a new deck.

    The pretty appearance of the laid teak is much of her charm. I know I ought to put down an honest painted glass over ply deck, but has technology advanced to the point where there is a better way of laying a teak over ply deck?
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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Maybe teak laid over a ply deck that is already glassed, bonded with epoxy only and no fastenings. Agree planked decks are a real visual impact on some yachts, but i would forego that these days.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    I was thinking along those lines. There must be a technique for getting the teak planks to stay where they are meant to go whilst the glue goes off...?
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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Mate, i'm in exactly the same situation as you - almost. 55 year old deck, lifting badly and the ply has rot in it.
    going through the motions, what to do, what to do.
    looking at mine, and looking at yours, I'm jealous ��
    If your ply is good, i'd try and work with what you have.
    Teak is notorious for not taking epoxy or anything else. So scarfing anything in isn't going to work.

    Is the offending plank fully cracked?
    do you think you could take it out whole and replace....?

    Sand back, replace all the caulk, router/kerf out the offending cracks and caulk (live with the irregular line).

    Your not going to get teak to bond to ply - as far as I know - with epoxy. Sikaflex have a product designed specifically for that. The 'bond' is permanently soft and allows the deck to move over the ply. I think its 290 or something. I'll look it up for you.

    i think your situation isn't bad yet, you have time to do it well.
    Though, in the coming years i think that deck will go. Then you have either a $20k to $40k new teak deck, or, a far cheaper glassed and painted one.

    In the meantime, regualr oiling to keep the teak full and water repellant ..... maybe? Someone more knowlegable than me might be able to help there.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Most teak decks today are done off the boat to precise patterns, the teak epoxied to either very thin Marine ply that has been scarfed and cut to shape, or laid down on a fiberglass cloth scree and bonded to that. Then the seam compound put down, sanded smooth and then the large panels bonded to the sub-deck with a special glue using weights or vacuum bag and maybe a handful of fasteners.
    I have made some 30' long side decks with the plywood method, and also replaced the entire deck on a lovely A&R 55' wooden yawl where we put down two layers of 1/2" ply after removing the old teak, then 5/8" x 1-3/4" teak epoxied and held by screws and fender washers put in the seams. After the epoxy had cured with pulled the fasteners and filled the holes with epoxy in a syringe, then the seam compound. We used two part thiokol which had been the standard for 50 years in the Pacific NW, but it is no longer available, our government at work I am sure banning useful items to keep us "safe".
    Now we use a onepart product from Teak Decking Systems that has proven very reliable, they also have the two part glue for bonding the teak down.
    It takes some thought to determine how large a panel you can safely handle, and laying out the stagger in the butt joints of the strokes and perhaps leaving the king planks loose to be bonded over the installed panels on the boat to cover the seam. It is expensive in labor and materials, but once sanded down and just kept clean will last a long time.
    The 55' wooden yawl mentioned above originally had 1-3/4" thick traditional laid teak decks, and over 50 years some areas had been sanded down to 5/8", but still looked good...so which system- the teak or a painted non-skid deck will be the cheapest in the 50 year view?

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Thanks Paul; that is most helpful.

    To clarify, there is a patch of rot in the ply sub-deck right forward where the port mooring bollard has pulled loose and not been fixed. being right forward, it's easy to get at from above and "not easy" to get at from below... the forestay fitting will have to come off as will the pulpit of course, then cut back to good ply, soak the lot in something poisonous and scarph in two layers of ply then replace the deck strakes. (Next winter's job - and fit a ventilator!!!)

    The boat is a non-standard completion on a Tyler Tufglas 38 (Ohlson 38) GRP hull, rather nicely done, and a lot of the attraction lies in the broad expanse of uninterrupted deck...
    Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 06-13-2017 at 10:12 AM.
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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    We used two part thiokol which had been the standard for 50 years in the Pacific NW, but it is no longer available, our government at work I am sure banning useful items to keep us "safe".
    Thiokol was a large military contractor with several egregious "accidents". They were found responsible for the space shuttle o-ring disaster, and consequently the company was split up and sold.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiokol

    (A little google work will find that although the trade name "Thiokol" is gone, the 2 part polysulfide product is still out there.)

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Doesnt look that bad. Some spot repair and a little extra maintenance and it should last a while. Fix the rot in the ply before it spreads because it will spread fast.
    The question is whether the deck will last as long as you will reasonably own the boat.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    Doesnt look that bad. Some spot repair and a little extra maintenance and it should last a while. Fix the rot in the ply before it spreads because it will spread fast.
    The question is whether the deck will last as long as you will reasonably own the boat.
    Yup; that's the question. I am 65 in a couple of months so I don't plan to do anything terribly long term... my late father sailed until he was 85 and that will do me.
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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    I had a similar, but more pressing situation on the boat I am rebuilding (60 yr old original laid teak deck). I choose to go with a 1/4" ply subdeck, 6 oz glass cloth set in epoxy, then the original teak planking (jointed on both sides and the bottom), set in TDS teak fitting epoxy, and finally TDS SIS 440 seam compound.
    You can see some of the process on page 3 of this thread. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Hubert+johnson

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    This is the norm on fiberglass boats of a certain age. Frankly their forums might have more info.

    I know one standard procedure is to reef out the old goop, clean the seams, tape and recaulk with something from a tube.

    To get the seams looking good, great care must be taken not to mar them up when reefing, and maybe a light sanding down in the groove to smooth any broken corners after most of the caulking is out.

    Do half this year and half next year and you will be good for the rest of your life.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Thiokol was a large military contractor with several egregious "accidents". They were found responsible for the space shuttle o-ring disaster, and consequently the company was split up and sold.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiokol

    (A little google work will find that although the trade name "Thiokol" is gone, the 2 part polysulfide product is still out
    there.)
    I don't think the Thiokol a company was ever involved with the itty bitty yacht industry. Detco Marine was the manufacturer of the Deck Caulk and Hull Caulk products I am familiar with since 1972. The beauty of this product was it would get to the bottom of the seam, and it sanded almost exactly like teak, so when we attacked the new decks with the 7"
    Grinder and 40 grit discs it would fair nicely.
    The Hull Caulk was a lot thicker and could be used for hull plank seams, and making a fillet say between deck and cabin side.
    Detco is gone now, even though Fisheries in Seattle still shows the product.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    First practical problem - getting the existing black stuff out of the seams and cutting the seams down to the ply. There "ought" to be a tool for this...
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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    First practical problem - getting the existing black stuff out of the seams and cutting the seams down to the ply. There "ought" to be a tool for this...
    I have heard that a hot knife cuts some seam compounds. If so, free the sides, then a sharp chisel should lift it out.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Could you use a router or trimmer Andrew?
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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    I am thinking that the original 3/8" thick strips of teak were made with a 1/4" square groove (see second picture). Therefore it ought to be possible to use a router (?) to follow the groove and cut down a further 1/8" to get down to the ply and clean the edges of the seam to take the new compound, after priming.
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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    There used to be a tool made to do the job but not any more, a kind of vertical router. Routers tend to take control, laterally. Pull the fastenings cut with a flooring saw or a Fein type saw and remove the planks. Fein might just make a narrow vibrating blade that will work. You can cut the black rubbery stuff with a knife.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    A few quick comments:

    I believe the The Gougeons' West System manual describes a method of laying teak faux planking in epoxy on plywood. They use temporary screws with washers beneath the heads being driven between the teak facing to hold them in place while the epoxy adhesive dries.

    I have heard it reported by reliable sources that polysulfide deck seam compound is easily removed using the properly sized Fein Multi-Master reefing hook attachment. https://www.jamestowndistributors.co...ct.do?pid=3332 As with anything Fein, they are wickedly expensive, but are pretty much the best available. There may be some off-brand copies out there, but I'm not sure. Or, a clever fellow could make his own, particularly if he has the original "round hole" style Multi-Master, instead of the later "star socket" they came out with to try to thwart people making their own attachments. It's not rocket science. (Who remembers when RCA did the same with their 45 RPM records to make people buy RCA "big spindle" record players and was thwarted by a simple plastic bushing?)
    Last edited by Bob Cleek; 06-13-2017 at 04:54 PM.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Andrew I can't see your pictures, but your deck sounds a lot like mine. My 55th birthday today (Happy Birthday) so I may have a few more years to get out of her than you In the 6 years or so I've had Balia I've cut out a few sections, scarphed in new ply and replaced the teak. But I keep finding new areas where water is getting into the ply and causing rot. The teak is too thin now, and many many nail and screw heads are exposed. I like the look of teak,,but it's too hot to walk on in summer, and has a tendency to slime up a bit in winter. So for me the answer is simple, delete the teak, replace whatever ply is compromised and glass over. I'm hoping not to have to replace all the ply, but we will see. Being financially constrained tends to mean putting this off for as long as possible, and I'm even considering a temporary middle stage where I get rid of the teak and just cover the ply with something waterproof. Something as off label as bathroom sealant, or following the lead of at least one tenacious adherent here, PL Premium. But then of course I'd have to remove all that when I do the job properly. I have a tendency to look for shortcuts. Doesn't always serve me well.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    I am thinking that the original 3/8" thick strips of teak were made with a 1/4" square groove (see second picture). Therefore it ought to be possible to use a router (?) to follow the groove and cut down a further 1/8" to get down to the ply and clean the edges of the seam to take the new compound, after priming.
    My Sprog, who is a boat builder, suggests that you should not router down to the ply, as the teak will be affording it protection.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Schweiss View Post
    I don't think the Thiokol a company was ever involved with the itty bitty yacht industry. Detco Marine was the manufacturer of the Deck Caulk and Hull Caulk products I am familiar with since 1972. The beauty of this product was it would get to the bottom of the seam, and it sanded almost exactly like teak, so when we attacked the new decks with the 7"
    Grinder and 40 grit discs it would fair nicely.
    The Hull Caulk was a lot thicker and could be used for hull plank seams, and making a fillet say between deck and cabin side.
    I think it is all basically the same stuff, Thiokol is a still a protected trade-name.

    "Polysulfide rubbers were among the first commercial synthetic rubbers produced. Two chemists,Joseph C. Patrick and Nathan Mnookin, were trying to invent an inexpensive antifreeze in 1926.In an experiment involving ethylene dichloride and sodium polysulfide, they created a gumwhose outstanding characteristic was a terrible odor. Trying to dispose of it, the substanceclogged a sink in the laboratory, and none of the solvents used to remove it were successful. Thechemists realized that the resistance of the material to any kind of solvent was a useful property.They had invented synthetic rubber, which they christened "Thiokol," from the Greek words forsulfur (theion) and glue (kolla). The Thiokol Chemical Corporation was subsequently foundedon December 5, 1929."

    http://www.chymist.com/Synthetic%20Rubber.pdf

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Schweiss View Post
    ..the teak epoxied to either very thin Marine ply...using weights...and maybe a handful of fasteners...
    I was on a boat a several years ago that had been re-decked a few years earlier as paraphrased from above. It looked great and seemed to be holding up nicely. I think as has been said, what's the aesthetic and performance return on investment for you?

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Thiokol was a large military contractor with several egregious "accidents". They were found responsible for the space shuttle o-ring disaster, and consequently the company was split up and sold.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiokol

    (A little google work will find that although the trade name "Thiokol" is gone, the 2 part polysulfide product is still out there.)

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Schweiss View Post
    We used two part thiokol which had been the standard for 50 years in the Pacific NW, but it is no longer available, our government at work I am sure banning useful items to keep us "safe".
    Two part polysulfide is available from aircraft suppliers. The most likely one for this application is AMS-S-8802 Sealing Compound, Temperature Resistant, Integral Fuel Tanks and Fuel Cell Cavities, High Adhesion. If you want to know what you are getting, the spec number is important, and makes it easy to google.

    It is made by AC-Tech (3M), PRC, Flamemaster and probably others. It is expensive. Some part numbers are: AC 240, AC 236, PS 890, PR 1440, CS 3204. The part number will be followed by the letter A, B, or C, which describe the consistency, (dunnow, paste and too thin) and a number like 1/2 or 2, which is the pot life in hours. Get B-1/2.

    The difference between brands is the local customer service, so buy the one the nearest supplier has in stock. Nationally, Aircraft Spruce has been a good mail order house, Sky Geek comes up a lot, but I never tried them. There is very little difference, if any, from brand to brand. You can not tell them apart.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    My Sprog, who is a boat builder, suggests that you should not router down to the ply, as the teak will be affording it protection.
    The reason for cutting down to the ply is to re-create enough depth in the seam to hold caulking because the deck has worn down about 1/8" or so.

    I notice that "bond breaker tape" seems to have gone out of fashion now, but anyway my intention would be to paint epoxy onto the exposed ply before going ahead with the rubber stuff
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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    The survey (by Martin Evans - you won't do better) found the one patch of rot right forward to port where a deck cleat has been pulled up, but I am uneasy about the guard wire stanchions which are bolted through the deck and not on teak pads, so I expect that the more I stir, the more it will stink.
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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Thiokol was a large military contractor with several egregious "accidents". They were found responsible for the space shuttle o-ring disaster, and consequently the company was split up and sold.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiokol

    (A little google work will find that although the trade name "Thiokol" is gone, the 2 part polysulfide product is still out there.)
    At the time of the Challenger disaster, I had a friend who had recently worked for Morton-Thiokol who told me an interesting backstory to the failed O-rings on the Space Shuttle. It wasn't exactly Morton-Thiokol's engineers' fault. The O-rings' properties were limited by temperature. They were not within specs if the ambient temperature fell below a certain temperature. The morning of the launch was cold and frosty and well below the temperature limit. Reagan's State of the Union Address was scheduled for that night and the White House wanted to be able to have him talk about how wonderful it was to send the first teacher into space and all that ballyhoo. NASA was under a lot of pressure to make sure the launch went ahead on schedule and, as is customary with the government, that pressure ran downhill. The rank and file guys at Morton-Thiokol said, "No way, it's too cold for launch." but the "suits" wanted to keep NASA happy and said "Go ahead, we think it will be okay." Reagan didn't get to crow about the first teacher in space.

    As it turned out decades later, his story was publicly confirmed. http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...blames-himself

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Hi, please have a look at my thread "Restoring a 1965 Alan Buchanan 32ft sloop" I have done the same agonising re my teak deck and have replaced and restored a large part of the foredeck. Happy with the result and I believe I have bought at least another 6 years for her.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Just to be clear here, we're talking about putting a wooden roof on a dwelling. A mostly flat roof made of wood.


    There is a basic problem with the concept.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by Buch32 View Post
    Hi, please have a look at my thread "Restoring a 1965 Alan Buchanan 32ft sloop" I have done the same agonising re my teak deck and have replaced and restored a large part of the foredeck. Happy with the result and I believe I have bought at least another 6 years for her.
    got a link?

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    got a link?
    here?

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...oop&highlight=
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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    got a link?
    here?

    You'll find Paladin approved..

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...oop&highlight=

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-32&highlight=


    May I say THANK YOU to Buch32. Very encouraging.
    Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 06-15-2017 at 05:44 PM.
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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    This comment from RFNK in Buc 32's thread is very pertinent to me.

    The thing that will destroy your ply deck and possibly your sheer plank, beam shelf, frames etc. in a worst case scenario, are ply edges exposed to moisture and screws penetrating plywood. If you remove the screws, do the teak strips stay in place? If so, then I'd remove all the screws, drill a hole into, but not through, the deck, and fill with epoxy glue. Then I'd put a teak bung into a bigger hole in the teak, and glue that in with poly. No need for fasteners, as glue is plenty to hold teak decking strips. If they're not glued on, then I'd glue them on with Fixtech or Sika, using clamps or weights.

    I've stripped a few teak-covered ply decks off boats. The worst area is usually the edges - at the gunwales and the coaming. If you can get glass sheathing over those edges, your deck will last a long time. If you can remove all penetrating screws and seal the damage, and cover all edges, your ply deck should last for the life of the boat.
    Rick

    I think my problems are confined to the stemhead area and to the outboard edges.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    I've used the Teak Decking Systems SIS 440 sealing goop and found it easier to use than polysulfides. It's held up well.

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    Default Re: I have a forty year old teak over ply deck. It's not bad. But, seriously...

    An old boat builder I knew ( but have lost contact with) recommended a layer of Bituthene 2000 https://gcpat.com/construction/en-au...Bituthene-2000 over a glassed ply deck under teak strips if the customer insisted on a teak deck. It's an industrial roofing material that comes on a roll, remains slightly soft and sticks to the substrate and bonds closely around the penetrating screws and softens slightly under a hot deck thus maintaining a close contact with the screws.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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