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Thread: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Why is almost everyone trying to be rational? The truth is both rigs have advantages and disadvantages. You sail them slightly differently, because of those little differences.
    The gaff has a romantic appeal that the Bermudian rig will never have. Not better or worse, just different. Like apples and oranges.
    Ingrid has small enough sails as a ketch they will be easily singlehanded.
    I'd consider it just to be different from everyone else. Perhaps with a Bermudan mizzen a la Tahiti Ketch. I'd certainly use the opportunity to increase the working sail plan, with a topsail etc....
    I do agree with Ian s comments Re large roach fully battened sails.
    If you want to go gaff...do it...but do it right. Don't ask the peanut gallery.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Pea View Post
    I have done a fair bit if offshore (and coastal) on both gaff and bermudian ketches. Both work well and are potentially good rigs for the Ingrid if they are set up right and used correctly. I will try to give my unbiased thoughts on the gaff rig.

    Gaff ketch rig. Advantages

    More sail area with a large lightweight topsail set high above the main. This typically makes the gaffer faster in light airs, even to windward, as long as the topsail is set correctly and some sort of effective jib topsail is set to match the Bermudian rigs light genoa.

    It's possible to raise, lower and reef the main on all points of sail without expensive hardware such as batcars or fancy sailtracks

    If the lazyjacks (and topping lifts)are set up right (inside the end of the gaff) the gaff never fouls on them as the battens can on a bermudian rig. This is a particular advantage of the gaff ketch which often has the main gaff about the same length as the boom.

    The gaff sail is very easy to drop and stow provided proper lazyjacks are rigged. Gravity is on your side, and the sail stows neatly along the boom inside the lazyjacks often with minimal need to tidy it up and lash it down. The weight of the gaff prevents it from bellowing away. However its best to always put at least a few lashings on it. We once had a big gust half raise the main gaff at anchor.

    The gaff definitely has more drive reaching and running, and the drive seems to stabilise the boat better downwimd with less rolling.

    The rig is very low tech, there is not much that can't easily be fixed with very simple tools.

    On a gaff ketch a simple self tending vang can be rigged from the mizzen masthead to the gaff. This transforms the rig and exactly sets and controls the twist of the upper part and the topsail. It also controls the gaff during a gybe, and holds it off the shrouds when running. In light airs it can be sheeted tight to prevent the gaff slaming. If it is rigged correctly up the mizzen mast to a block, along the gaff to the throat, then down the luff to the deck it doesn't need adjusting or tending when the gaff is raised and lowered, and can't throw a clove hitch around the mizzen masthead.

    The topsail makes for a quick and easy first reef, and scandilising the gaff can quickly depower the sail.

    The gaff rig looks distinctive and unique in world full of Bermudan rigs

    The sail tends to outlive a bermudian sail, it holds its shape better, due to being better supported along the edges and having a lower aspect. A vertical cut sail works ok and is less likely to tear leech to luff along a seam.

    Lots more ropes and strings to play with. Setting topsails can be fun, and if you have a bigger motivated crew it can be great team building as there is enough ropes and jobs for everyone.

    The running backstays open the middle of the boat up for a very effective mizzen staysail, without any issues getting it around a standing backstay.

    Generally smaller sails that are individually easy to handle.


    Gaff rig disadvantages

    The gaff can slam in a big swell with light airs. A vang to the mizzen mast helps control this as does a good light topsail.

    Two halyards per sail, both with multipart tackles mean much more rope to deal with, and windage, chafe and cost. One halyard and one winch is probably much cheaper. Topsails add yet more complexity and ropes.

    Two spars per sail, so more cost and work to build.

    Less of a 'knowledge' base of how to design, rig and best handle a modern gaffer. There is an immense body of knowledge about the bermudian rig and the equivalent has been lost or is much harder to find for the gaff rig. Eg its harder to find a sailmaker that really understands how to make a topsail set well on a gaffer.

    It is harder to sympathetically integrate modern technology such as roller reefing headsails, winches and clutches into a gaff rig, and not change its character or run into unexpected issues such as forestay sag causing problems with roller reefing extrusion joins, or winches overloading parts of the rig.

    The topsail, while it can be a handy first reef and is a cery powerful sail, is often a pretty drastic reduction of sail area and leading edge length. Especially to windward the loss of the topsail can really hurt performance. Often we will set a topsail over a reefed main, to claw back some leading edge. This is a compromise in many ways, it can be harder to get the topsail to set well, and you normally have to drop the topsail to reef the main, then set it again. Other options are a smaller topsail, but this is more complexity.

    Once the jib topsail comes off (or bags up due to a saggy luff) windward performance is going to be worse than a Bermudian rig with its standing backstay and long tight forestay.

    Running backstays are a nuisance. Aft led shrouds and no runners can make it hard to get a tight rig.

    Even with runners the whole rig is looser. Forestay tension is lower. Attempting to increase tension with powerful runners is often doomed to failure, as the lower portion of the mast is more limber and less well supported so you just start bending stuff due to the staying angles and long unsuported length. The only way to deal with this is shorter forestays. So you just can't easily run a big masthead genoa or yankee in strong winds like you can with a well stayed in column Bermudian rig.

    Chafe can be a bigger problem, simply due to the amount of rope, blocks and leads aloft, and things like topsails set on one side of the peak halyards.

    Do you go for a long pole mast with a jib headed topsail, a short pole mast with a jackyard topsail, or a separate light topmast and jib headed topsail? All have pro's and cons and other permutations are out there. Jib headed topsails have issues with keeping the luff tight and straight. Yard topsails set very well and bend to depower themselves, but they generally harder to set, hand and stow. Especially on a 38 footer. Where the yard is getting biggish.

    Setting and stowing a topsail takes a good setup, practice and good technique. It's another sail to buy and handle. Dont even think about not having a topsail as an option. On this kind of gaffer the topsail is a working sail.

    Typically the work load on a gaffer will be greater, both sailing and maintenance wise due to the greater numner of sails, ropes and spars. The work is for the most part fun, and in bad weather the light sails are stowed and the lowers are easy to deal with. But it is still more work. Just raing the gaff takes more energy due to its weight. However you can easily raise it by yourself by pulling both halyards (peak and throat) together.

    If it were my boat I'd find it a tough call. Both rigs have advantages and disadvantages. I'd probably go gaff for the extra horsepower and romance. But I grew up on a gaff ketch and have a soft spot for the rig.

    The Ingrid will look lovely either way.
    interesting points...


    I would quible about the "knowledge base" statment, realy depends where you are in the country. I worked for a local boat shop for 6+ years where fully 75% of the daily bread I and 5 fellow employees ate came from keeping our local Gaff rig fleets up and running... most of what we made stayed here in New England or went to the PNW.


  3. #73
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Re mizzen and engine: My boat was designed as a schooner, with the foremast in the v-berth, and the mainmast in the cabin. As a ketch, the mizzen goes through the bridge deck above the engine. It steps on a steel base supported by four angle iron legs. This has been no trouble for 49 years.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    If you really want to be able to fix things on a tropical, ie third world, island, definitely go gaff. You can make your own timber shelled blocks, the gaff and boom can ride the mast on timber jaws. Mast hoops or rope lacing to hold the sail to the mast and spars. All easily remade, fixed, replaced. Pretty much anywhere. Even a spar can be replaced by a reasonably straight bit of tree or bamboo. Bermudan relies on a lot of complex metal,fittings that just can't be got, fabricated or substituted on an island in the pacific or high latitudes.

    Oh and listen well to that pea guy from Tassie. I think he knows well of what he speaks.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    If you really want to be able to fix things on a tropical, ie third world, island, definitely go gaff. You can make your own timber shelled blocks, the gaff and boom can ride the mast on timber jaws. Mast hoops or rope lacing to hold the sail to the mast and spars. All easily remade, fixed, replaced. Pretty much anywhere.
    Are you talking from experience here Phil, or are you just guessing

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I have plans (I assume they are original) from Atkins, they specify a bermudan rig, hollow spruce mast, 43'8" for main, 29'2" for mizzen. main= 346 sqft, mizzen= 185 sqft, jib= 162 sqft, st.sail=123 sqft, total = 816

    Yes, if I switch to gaff I will certainly hire a competent NA and will post the plans here for critique.

    I do intend to build much/if not all of it myself. I felled the trees and milled the lumber, I doubt I would go that far and hire someone else for the rig. If I rig it I will know and understand the rigging much more intimately than if I hired it out. I want to know every inch of her and know it well.

    The plans call for a keel stepped main and a deck stepped mizzen. I may be able to shuffle the motor a bit and keel step the mizzen. On the plans it hits the motor but I am sure motors are more compact these days and a electric auxiliary is in the cards and would be significantly smaller. I would not object to keel stepping the mizzen, I am sure it would be stronger keel stepped.

    I am unsure of stainless or galvanized. As a climber I am very familiar with the newer synthetic fibers and could entertain the the idea of a wire free rig if possible. I do like working with the soft rigging more than steel cable.

    Hope that helps!

    May I suggest that you run some numbers first, this is not a cheap project and the warning bells are going off big time. Ingrid is 25000 pounds, an economical build is $5 per pound or $125,0000. Plenty of people start projects the cant finish because they underestimate the time and money. The big question is do you want to sail, build or just faff around on internet forums getting confused by old farts who for the most part have no idea or experience?

    If you want to sail, buy a boat then make improvements and upgrades to satisfy your building urge. Good luck!
    whatever rocks your boat

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    If you really want to be able to fix things on a tropical, ie third world, island, definitely go gaff. You can make your own timber shelled blocks, the gaff and boom can ride the mast on timber jaws. Mast hoops or rope lacing to hold the sail to the mast and spars. All easily remade, fixed, replaced. Pretty much anywhere. Even a spar can be replaced by a reasonably straight bit of tree or bamboo. Bermudan relies on a lot of complex metal,fittings that just can't be got, fabricated or substituted on an island in the pacific or high latitudes.

    Oh and listen well to that pea guy from Tassie. I think he knows well of what he speaks.
    Good grief, there is a luddite convention on Easter Island, to get there you need to make your own dugout and paddle there.
    whatever rocks your boat

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    A quick googly and http://bluewaterboats.org/ingrid-38/ you can buy them apparently between 35 and 75k, would be worth buying a cheapie and stripping all the gear to put on your wooden hull.
    whatever rocks your boat

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    A quick googly and http://bluewaterboats.org/ingrid-38/ you can buy them apparently between 35 and 75k, would be worth buying a cheapie and stripping all the gear to put on your wooden hull.

    thats how Burnham built the Ardelle, striped the fittings from the pinky Maine... not sure if he used the spars or not.


  10. #80
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I am in favor of simplicity and safety, and would caution you to build the boat as your design has it, esthetics be damned. That is not important.
    (Safety involves windward ability among many, many other considerations)

    (*Note the OP said no electric winches, nothing about regular ancient old fashioned winches, which are lovely things indeed)

    This is a beautiful vessel...

    Quote Originally Posted by debenriver View Post
    I think I would make one change to the bermudian rig as drawn I would not have the main backstay attached to the mizzen.

    This puts quite a load into the mizzen and thus into the mizzen aft shrouds, which are at a fairly small angle with the mast, and not really designed for the purpose.

    I would split the main backstay just forward of the mizzen and bring two legs down to the quarters, so the main backstay is entirely independent of the mizzen. The picture below is Landfall, our family boat built 1958 38' so similar size (but counter sterned). You can see the main backstay split just forward of the mizzen and the port leg coming down to the quarter.

    She also has a triatic stay (really a mizzen forestay) but this was quite a nuisance as movement in one mast tended to induce movement in the other specially when the mizzen was rattling about, as mizzens have the tendency to do. In the end we got rid of it as it didn't really perform a useful function.

    The sails in this photo are kutched canvas later replaced with tan terylene, which was a big improvement, both for handling the sails and in performance.

    Landfall is currently in the Caribbean, along with one of her sister ships, Plieades.



    Landfall's rig was no more difficult or complicated to build than a gaff rig would be in fact somewhat less so in many ways. The masts are hollow spruce, rectangular in section, so very easy to make up as a box. Similarly the booms. My father made all the fittings himself (galvanized mild steel). Everything else is relatively simple. Of her time, she had galvanized rigging and rigging screws, galvanized shroud plates and so on.

    Cheers -- George

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bowdidge View Post
    Are you talking from experience here Phil, or are you just guessing
    I lived in Papua New Guinea for 5 of the last 15 years, and garuantee you cannot buy things like goosenecks, stainless blocks, sail slides or battens, etc and so on there. The post is slow and unreliable so allow up to say 6 weeks to ship anything from Australia. More if you are not in Port Moresby, and allow for the first order not arriving at all. I sailed for 6 months in Tonga and Fiji, but that was in 1973, I imagine things have changed in Suva, but probably not in the more isolated islands. A common theme in any cruising book or blog is waiting for parts to be shipped, cleared through customs etc. My dads boat is gaff rigged, if something breaks, he can make a new part.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I lived in Papua New Guinea for 5 of the last 15 years, and garuantee you cannot buy things like goosenecks, stainless blocks, sail slides or battens, etc and so on there. The post is slow and unreliable so allow up to say 6 weeks to ship anything from Australia. More if you are not in Port Moresby, and allow for the first order not arriving at all. I sailed for 6 months in Tonga and Fiji, but that was in 1973, I imagine things have changed in Suva, but probably not in the more isolated islands. A common theme in any cruising book or blog is waiting for parts to be shipped, cleared through customs etc. My dads boat is gaff rigged, if something breaks, he can make a new part.
    I sailed with this crack in my gaff jaw for a season,


    It finally broke, but I continued to sail another 50 miles like this,

    I found the material needed to fix it in a dumpster,

    Had it going the next day

    cost,,a disc and a few pumps of west.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    The whole project is very large. It is doable because lots of people in the past have done pretty much what you are suggesting. most often the advice today is to buy an older hull for cheap and go from there. There is certainly some strong convincing arguments in that advice. It just may be you want to build simply because it is a holy thing to do.....go for it. By the time you need to make an irreversible decision on the rig, perhaps your mind will be clearer. Asking advice from this crowd you mostly get polarized opinions. Each of us can justify our point of view, illustrate our points with 8 x 10 glossy photos with circles and arrows and little descriptions confirming our point of view.
    Sit on it, mull it over. Ask a few very specific questions of selected advisors, and finally make up your own mind. Certainly doing a gaffer like Bruce, it is all self build-able and repairable, (most modern sailboats, this is not the case) and I guess Woodwind goes to windward just fine, not I am guessing like a modern racer/cruiser, but considerably better than any or the square rigged ships our various ancestors used to migrate around the world. That is not that bad.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I haven't read through this entire thread yet, but I have some first hand knowledge of this boat.

    -At 11.3 ft beam and 25000 lb, it is significantly narrower and lighter (proportionally) than any of the other "colin archer" gaff ketches Atkin drew
    -A gaff rig will have more weight aloft than the bermudan drawn
    -Brion Toss just re-rigged a wood Ingrid with synthetic rope, removing 300 lb from the rig. He said they were then able to set full sail for the first time ever

    I love gaffers, would prefer one for offshore sailing. But, for this particular hull I don't think it will be happy with the added weight and windage aloft. It could be done, Bruce's ketch is a tender hull as well, but I don't think it would be best.

    As others have said, the main needs a proper forked backstay, and the mizzen really needs aft swept spreaders with some full height aft shrouds as well to allow a mizzen staysail. Atkin didn't quite get the rigging sized to reflect the mast loading, he basically sized each cable as if it were gaff rigged. It was early days then. I have a rig load spreadsheet for this boat that I can send you when you get to that point.

    Edit: I will add that gaff gets a lot of talk about being "simplest" or "easiest to repair". I don't think I agree with either. The stick and rigging that holds it up will effectively be the same, assuming spliced loops on bolsters. But the gaff will have more halyards, more gear for topsails, more cordage. Rig loading will be similar, its a function of restorative moment of the hull, not rig type. A backstay would actually lower rig loading comparatively. Preload is generally higher with modern bermudian boats, but that would be user error on this hull and should not be taken too extreme.

    With the bermudian you can have staysail, jib, and flying jib just like the gaffer if you stick with the fractional configuration drawn. But you also have the ability for a big genoa, drifter, etc..

    If you really want the simplest, safest, easiest to repair, easiest to handle and reef, cheapest rig- then you want the junk rig. No joke.
    Last edited by J.Madison; 05-30-2017 at 12:57 AM.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Lots of rubbish being talked on the forum - "Ingrid" was originally offered with Gaff rig and at least one vessel so rigged has circumnavigated and voyaged extensively. From first hand knowledge. Is it the best rig for an "Ingid" - it depends.

    People posting (and alas reading) here need to discern between opinions, facts, beliefs and experience.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    I am at work so gotta be quick!

    There is no "budget" it costs what it costs and I will find the cash to get her built as best as I know how. It's not a cheap boat to build, no point skimping on the rig.
    Thanks!
    Then i guess you will have to sell a lot of $50 sweatshirts. By the look of your website, are you intending to go into competition with "La Vagabond" on Youtube, once complete?

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    So much information.....

    This is awesome folks! Thanks! I realize there are a lot of conflicting ideas, some experiences have been called facts, some facts have been opinions and I am sure some beliefs are actually facts. The joys of the human brain =)

    I have learned a lot, I have a lot more I need to research and gain a better understanding of. Like I said earlier I am going to take my time deciding. This was like going to the library, checking out a mountain of books and deciding which ones to use to base your paper or research project off of. A few gems appear, some possible stuff to look deeper into and a whole bunch of extras.

    I knew I was opening a can of worms when I posted, kind of like going to a car forum and asking if Chevy or Ford is better! Ha! Most is people's isolated opinions but there are usually a few with some useful knowledge like this specific transmission has issues or the rust preventive coat this specific year was especially poor.

    I also am VERY aware that Ingrid is a 6 figure boat, will take years to finish and there are not a few bumps ahead there are a few mt. ranges of difficulties! I may not have grown up in a boat shop or have been a salty sailor since before I could walk but that does not guarantee success or failure.

    A project like this really comes down to mental stamina and fortitude. Money can be found, parts scrounged, made, there are boundless options. Unless you know me personally you have no way to judge my drive and self motivation.

    I was told I would not find a one piece keel/could not afford it and I would not find the lead or be able to afford it, the bronze alone would sink my budget....
    I have the keel timber in the boat house and have over 1/2 the lead I need (a couple thousand pounds was free!) I figured out the bronze for the backbone last night and we can swing it. I will take it as it comes, if I waited until I had $100,000 cash on hand I would never start.

    A restoration might be cheaper and easier, or it might not be, irregardless it is not my dream and I won't accomplish this unless it truly is my dream.

    I say this not because the comments or doubts bother me, but more so because it can make doing something like this seem impossible. I think the vast majority of people are capable of WAY more than they think they are. Sure a lot of big undertakings don't succeed but the more individuals who try and the more encouraging support they receive, the more who will succeed. Ingrids have been built in backyards before, I ain't the first loony bin to try. =)

    A big part of why I am posting is to hopefully show that a total newbie with a whole hell of a lot of gumption can get it done.

    Just remember EVERYTHING was impossible until someone did it and proved everyone else wrong
    Some of the worlds greatest feats were accomplished by people not smart enough to know they were impossible
    Those who say it can't or won't be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it


    Thanks a million to everyone who posted. I emailed Atkin and asked if I could get a copy of the gaff plans if they do indeed exist. I have a lot of research and learning to do, so I am going to lock this thread for now to be re-visited at a later date.

    Feel free to PM me if you have any last thoughts that need saying at this moment.

    Thanks again! I really appreciate it!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    The plot thickens!

    I appreciate your patience while I contacted Atkins and did a bit more reading.

    Pat confirmed there are indeed plans for a gaff rigged Ingrid, her name is Stormy Petrel, she was drawn in 1959, 15 years after Atkin drew Ingrid.

    Seems a gentleman requested a gaff rigged ketch for "long offshore voyaging" so Atkin took Ingrid and switched her to a gaff.

    So

    I have sail plans for both, Pat reviewed both sets of plans and said as far as she can tell they are the same boat. From what I can tell she seems to be correct.

    I now have plans for both rigs so no navel architect needed and no worries about building her as drawn.

    A few notable differences


    Ingrid

    Main- 43'8" 346 sq ft
    Mizzen- 29"2' 185 sq ft

    Jib- 162 sq ft
    St'sl- 123 sq ft

    Total 816 sq ft

    Hollow mast


    Stormy Petrel

    Main- 41' 11" 348 sq ft
    Mizzen 27' 3" 181 sq ft

    Jib- 166 sq ft
    St'sl- 116 sq ft

    Total 811 sq ft

    Plus 330 sq ft Balloon Jib

    Solid mast


    I am surprised that the masts are only 2' shorter, maybe it is my naivety showing but I was expecting more of a difference.

    I am still on the fence, might be for a while but I can rest easy knowing I can proceed and decide at a later date with no worries.

    I do like the name Stormy Petrel and the gaff sure is perty but those are poor deciding factors!

    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I vote for marconi. I think it looks better. It's certainly simpler to handle with less chafe and hazard from swinging gaffs. A gaff rig can spread a good deal of off-wind horsepower but you'll have a challenge controlling the sail's twist and is one factor that puts you at risk of an accidental gybe. For long downwind, I'd recommend creating a "Twizzler", which is really a much refined twin jib arrangement.

    Unlike conventional twins experimented with and rejected in the early '60s and that roll the boat rather horribly, the Twizzler has a pair of poles that go from the stay to each clew and the sails are sheeted well out so that the clews are forward of the bow. Pulls like a horse and makes for very easy steering on anything from a broad reach to dead run. With the sails set clew forward, the 'self-excitation' that leads to uncontrollable rolling under conventional twins is totally gone. You can then leave the main and mizzen down in all but the lightest airs and still romp along at hull speed, free of broach induced gybes.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/archive/...p/t-42928.html

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFbo8CsPjm4

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I agree with Jim D. Respect the designer. Based on my experience a gaff rig is safe, easy to reef but a lot of work. The main thing is balance. If balanced with bermudan, windvane friendly etc I would build as designed. On the other hand, a gaff rig is probably less expensive.Read Mulville on single handed sailing.
    Last edited by norseman; 07-07-2017 at 12:07 PM.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I dont like the plan in 88.
    No topsl. Topsl or mizzen is the first reef . Reefing the main IS a lot of work.

  22. #92
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    Mar 2015
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I misread the height of the masts. On the gaff Atkin had total mast length and on the bermudan height above deck so they looked close at first glance. The gaffer has a 8' shorter main and a 6' shorter mizzen.
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
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  23. #93
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    I misread the height of the masts. On the gaff Atkin had total mast length and on the bermudan height above deck so they looked close at first glance. The gaffer has a 8' shorter main and a 6' shorter mizzen.

    Certainly the appearance of the gaff rigged version is lower. I was surprised when you indicated the difference was only 2 ft. 8’ and 6’ seems more like it.
    The solid mast and gaff are of course heavier, but being considerably lower it will be a win in power to carry sail. Chafe will be a bigger concern with the gaff rig. I’d build the gaff rig using more modern materials and techniques to mitigate the disadvantages, and enhance the advantages. A number of designers and builders have experimented with different techniques to do this over the years, so it is not like you need to re-invent. She will still not go to windward quite as well as the Bermudian version. Not massively worse and still acceptable for the intended use and few cruisers actually sail to windward any more than they absolutely have to. I do not think this modernization needs to make the rig more complicated or expensive, or less repairable. Like Bruce I’d like a topsail, for light airs, but would probably prefer a club topsail and keep the mast that bit shorter, keeping the top hamper as relatively low as possible.
    I’d still consider Ian’s idea of fully battened, roached sails, or possibly even ‘fat head’ sails as ways of keeping the centres lower for more sailing power. Again this is no longer new or radical, other than you might have the only Ingrid rigged in this way.

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