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Thread: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    For those who are banging on about sticking to the "plans" I think you'll find that despite the "plans" supplied these days showing the Bermudian rig, but the "originals" offered both.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Complete hogwash.
    Marconi rigs have only been around since 1900+- in any great numbers and only then in the most modern and expensive racing yachts. the popularity of Marconi rigs has only exploded since modern adhesives and especially since Aluminum spars. The gaff and other traditional rigs hung on in pleasure boats untill the racing fads made pleasure sailors feel inferior and old fashion so they updated to follow the trends.

    lets face it the only reason Atkin likely gave Ingrid a marconi was to help it look speedy and modern and appeal to the latest trends in yachting at the time.
    Actually 1700 or earlier, they are now on the cheapest yachts everywhere because they are so much better not because peoples feelings were hurt! No one knows why Mr Aitkin put a marconi rig on but I have a copy of Yachting magazines "Your New Boat" from 1946 with not a single gaff rig in dozens of contemporary wooden designs, you are plain wrong.
    whatever rocks your boat

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    Admittedly one of the most important factors in this decision is the builder and the budget!

    Marconi rigs are modern day advances that developed with hollow masts and an excedingly high level of fit and finish in yacht building, If you are planing on hiring out this rig to be professionally built by a master spar maker from a well known yard I'd say go for the Marconi, also if you are considering modern materials like an alloy or carbon mast the Marconi looks even more appealing. Marconi rigs also will likely require marine grade professionally made rigging and hardware... no hand carved locust deadeyes and galvanized hand wrought iron here... everything should be polished stainless and professionally swagged.

    If you are considering building the rig yourself, the Gaff Rig is a No Brainer... don't even consider the Marconi if you are a newbie boat builder. Gaffs evolved over centuries to be built of solid lumber and simple honest craftsmanship... with no glues or high tech flim flam! and have a proven ability to work in adverse conditions even when primative materials and techniques were the norm.


    you just need to decide which aesthetic is more pleasing and within your budget.
    There have been many, many bermudan rigs built at home with low tech materials, and the idea that the level of polish is related to rig style is extremely odd.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    Complete hogwash.
    Marconi rigs have only been around since 1900+- in any great numbers and only then in the most modern and expensive racing yachts. the popularity of Marconi rigs has only exploded since modern adhesives and especially since Aluminum spars. The gaff and other traditional rigs hung on in pleasure boats untill the racing fads made pleasure sailors feel inferior and old fashion so they updated to follow the trends.

    lets face it the only reason Atkin likely gave Ingrid a marconi was to help it look speedy and modern and appeal to the latest trends in yachting at the time...

    oh never mind, I'm too busy boat building at the moment to bang on here

    just build the macaroni rig... or not.
    Nope. It only takes the slightest knowledge of design to know that many extremely popular boats (Snipes, Moths, VJs, Blue Jays, Lightnings, N12s, Dragons, Stars, Teals, Derwents, IODs, Bluebirds, Folkboats, Jubilees, Junior Folkboats, Requins, SCODs, Stellas to name just a few) used bermudan rigs before modern glues and alloy spars became popular. It's great that people love gaff rigs, but why do so many fans of "alternative" rigs bend the truth to justify themselves?

    By the way, I'm glad I wasn't the poor sod on Christiana who had to stand near that narrow stern and furl the mizzen and mess around on the foredeck or out on the end of the sprit getting rid of the headie. A modern rig allows you to go from 0 to 25 knots windspeed faster and in the comfort of the cockpit because it can depower just by easing a 10mm line and pulling on some 6-8mm strings.

    By the way, have you ever actually tried a modern rig and learned how to use it? For instance, if we put you on a J/24 and the wind picked up from 5 to 20 knots, what controls would you adjust and why?
    Last edited by Chris249; 05-28-2017 at 09:57 PM.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Bruce-
    can you elaborate on your statement of "difference between simple and easy".

    Rowing a boat across the bay is simple. Putting across the bay with an outboard is easy.
    The outboard boat "performs " better,as long as it does not break. Oars are less apt to break.
    I think this is a good comparison between gaff and bermudian.




  6. #41
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I am not really keen on convincing folks to switch to gaff.
    My knowledge of it does not come from a book.
    SO much influence from racing!!!!
    bruce
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/wizban.../in/datetaken/
    hey lets watch Woody bash along for a few moments.
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 05-28-2017 at 10:33 PM.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Some incorrect info above,
    The failure of a stay will not bring my rig down.
    It does not require two people to raise a gaff.
    edit /reply to Phil Y below... my topsl is the easiest 100 sq ft of sail to handle on the vessel. simple sail laced to a rope luff. no sticks.
    On cost of sails... i would guess Steve, you may become interested in making, repairing, re cutting your own sails. The very nature of a gaffer being less "efficient" upwind, makes the cutting and shaping less critical.
    My main is 9 ounce dacron, and that is just a bit too heavy for my pfaff130, so it is the only sail I farm out to a pro.But all other sails are good ar 6 or 7 ounces. (Woodwind is only a bit smaller than Arrabella).Over the years Ive made sails on the floors of restaurants and bars. Awnings are a piece of cake. One can make ones own bermidian sails, but the vessel may end up going like a gaffer anyway, Jah forbid!!!
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 05-29-2017 at 07:14 AM.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    So where are all the junk rig fans?

    One advantage of gaff rig is you don't have to turn into the wind to drop the main.

    Lazyjacks are a must, on either.

    I think less rig tension is normal on gaff rigs, which can be gentler on the boat.

    Bermudan goes better to windward, but pretty much relies on a spinnaker or big reacher to go downwind.

    Topsails are a handful, better to design the rig so it's not needed.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    The problem I see here is, everybody is TELLING him what to do, but no one is ASKING him what he intends to do with the boat and what suits him.
    Is he just sailing around the harbor wanting a nostalgic and traditional look?
    Is he wanting to go long term cruising ?
    Will he be sailing on his own or will there be a family on board?
    All these questions have a huge impact on what rig he should be looking for.

    So lets stop all these stupid arguments about what rig best suits you , when we should be listening to him and asking what he's wanting and.. what best suits his needs.

    Regards
    Mark



    Mark Bowdidge (MRINA)
    Naval Architect
    Professor
    Westlawn Institute of Marine Technology
    www.westlawn.edu
    Last edited by Mark Bowdidge; 05-29-2017 at 03:31 AM.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    So where are all the junk rig fans?

    One advantage of gaff rig is you don't have to turn into the wind to drop the main.

    Lazyjacks are a must, on either.

    I think less rig tension is normal on gaff rigs, which can be gentler on the boat.

    Bermudan goes better to windward, but pretty much relies on a spinnaker or big reacher to go downwind.

    Topsails are a handful, better to design the rig so it's not needed.
    As a guide to the amount of performance a bermudan rig loses downwind, a non-spinnaker boat is normally rated about 3-4% slower under most rules. That's pretty consistent across the span of a huge range of forms of handicapping, and it's a surprisingly small amount of speed loss.

    Interestingly, back in the glory days of the gaff rig, they were often rated about 3-4% slower than a bermudan, and that's still the case in some classes that are available in gaff and bermudan form. So if people are worried about losing the small amount of performance a bermudan rig loses when it doesn't use a spinnaker, they are probably unlikely to go to gaff.

    Incidentally, I've never had a problem dropping a main downwind in light airs, and even up to 10 knots or so; we often did in because we sail into the mooring downwind due to our fast-running tide. We just pull the mainsheet on and most of the main falls down. Some of it lies against the stays but because there's no gaff to hold it out, much of it just flops around the stays and depowers.

    A good gaff rig is fun and has its strong points, of course. It's just that sometimes in this sort of discussion, people don't care apples to apples - they compared their vision of what a high-tech bermudan is against a simple cruisy gaff.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Bowdidge View Post
    The problem I see here is, everybody is TELLING him what to do, but no one is ASKING him what he intends to do with the boat and what suits him.
    Is he just sailing around the harbor wanting a nostalgic and traditional look?
    Is he wanting to go long term cruising ?
    Will he be sailing on his own or will there be a family on board?
    All these questions have a huge impact on what rig he should be looking for.

    So lets stop all these stupid arguments about what rig best suits you , when we should be listening to him and asking what he's wanting and.. what best suits his needs.

    Regards
    Mark



    Mark Bowdidge (MRINA)
    Naval Architect
    Professor
    Westlawn Institute of Marine Technology
    www.westlawn.edu
    .......its in the first post.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I know it is, but it seems that its being ignored.
    Surely more questions can be asked.
    I mean, does have the original plans that offer both rigs or, does he only have the Bermudan sail plan?
    If he doesn't have the gaff plan, is he prepared to pay to have it engineered and drawn up. ? It not a small boat where one can muck around and guess. It has to be done properly. Lives can be a stake here.
    Either way whether it be Bermudan or gaff, is he building it himself.?
    Does he want keel stepped or deck stepped?
    What type of rigging? Stainless or galvinised (you can have either on both rigs)

    So many questions, yet no one is really listening or asking. Like I said previously, it becoming a what's "Best for me" .
    We have two ears and one mouth. That means we should listen twice as much.
    Just a suggestion
    Last edited by Mark Bowdidge; 05-29-2017 at 05:33 AM.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Holy smokes that is a lot of information and differing opinions to sort through!

    Thank you very much to everyone who has taken the time and energy to respond! I am very very appreciative of your opinion and experience. I am also thankful that so far it has not dissolved into a name calling contest =) I really hope it can continue to be a fruitful discussion.

    I can't comment much on a lot of the technical info since I am very much still learning, but I can comment on my goals, desires and a few broader things.

    The first post explains the goals and aspirations, there is a thread for the build, a website, Facebook page and a running video documentary. You can plainly see I am new to all of this and am swinging for the fences.

    The plan is to get on the boat and go, preferably to wild places for long periods of time. Think simple, stout, easily repairable and maintainable for places like Patagonia, Norway, Maine, Alaska, Northern China, as well as the usual tropical cruising grounds. I have a pension for colder weather and wild places, hence building a Ingrid. She is big and sturdy and something I can fix with a few hand tools and some time. This boat is not being built to go fast or day sail from the harbor.
    This forum (you all) are probably my richest information source. Right now I am mining all the info I can about the rig choice, I will slowly digest it all and come to a decision at some point. If you expect/want me to make a decision soon then I would suggest moving on. I am starting the research phase for the rig and I am going to take my sweet time.

    I am not looking to be convinced, I just would like to know your choices and why, if you were in my shoes what would you do/choose and why.

    A lot of conflicting "facts" have been thrown out so far. Seems like everywhere I turn these days there are facts and alternate facts abounding =)

    Just remember the topic is gaff or bermudan for an Atkin Ingrid for world girdling adventures. Sailing with a small crew/single handed, no electric winches, no automatic furlers, she should only need human power to sail.

    I would love to write a bit more but I am already a tad late for work.

    Thanks again for insights, please keep them coming, I am learning a lot and I am sure I am not the only one!

    Hope ya'll have a swell day!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Perhaps you should also think about what the sails will cost. Bermudan sails will be cheaper, more lofts will have expertise in them and if you're lucky you might find a stock sail to suit. Which opens up the possibility of second hand sails and I have found that it's relatively easy to find a good second hand bermudan sail compared to gaff. Without having to cut it down or alter it. You'll also find it easier to get experience sailing bermudans and advice from fellow sailors in your locality on how to best set up the rig.
    If you're interested in simple and easy to single hand then how about a Junk rig. Flat panels that you can fabricate yourself or have done professionally. I'm just putting a junk on a boat for a client, much smaller admittedly, but he switched from a gaff to the junk. His reason was to simplify reefing and reduce weight. He does report that windward performance isn't great; but for him the trade off is acceptable.
    Now I've thrown in the hand grenade, have at it.
    All the best,
    Tiernan
    p.s. If you're going to build it and finish it, you have to think it's beautiful because if you really love what you're creating then you have something to hold on to, to get through the hard times.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Perhaps you should also think about what the sails will cost. Bermudan sails will be cheaper, more lofts will have expertise in them and if you're lucky you might find a stock sail to suit. Which opens up the possibility of second hand sails and I have found that it's relatively easy to find a good second hand bermudan sail compared to gaff. Without having to cut it down or alter it. You'll also find it easier to get experience sailing bermudans and advice from fellow sailors in your locality on how to best set up the rig.
    Very good point Roeboats

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I have owned both, but on smaller boats, so i am not sure the comparisons are relative. My bermudian cutter rigged boat was the most easily handled, even when it did not have twin furlers for the inboard headsails. The gaff rig did have better drive off wind without resorting to a cruising chute, bit I ENJOY FLYING ONE! So i do not think it should all about what is the best for the needs, but also what you would enjoy should be part of the equation, especially if you are looking at racking up a lot of miles in various locations. If i could afford to build such a boat, i would most definately have a big slow revving diesel in it with large tankage, so upwind performance under sail ,FOR ME, would not be a big issue, and if i had the crew to sweat up lines, i would most likely go for gaff, keel stepped masts, i generally prefer a rig that can work without excessive rig tensions, but maybe being almost dismasted before making it half way across the Atlantic might have something to do with that......i ceratinly would not use stainless, if i was spending my own money. Whats your budget?

  17. #52
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    It seems to me some of the points made about Bermuda rigs apply to masthead rigs and others to fractional rigs, but not both. . The claim that rigging loads are not necessarily higher in Bermuda rigs is true for a masthead rig, but not for a fractional. . The talk about deporting easily thru a broad range of wind applies to a fractional, but not a masthead. While I believe that many masthead rigs can be built by oneself just as a gaff rig can, it becomes much more problematic for a fractional rig. Running back stays not needed? . On a large boat with a fractional rig, they likely are needed.
    On the other hand, I often think many of the criticisms old gaffers make about Bermuda rigs primarily apply to fractional rigs.
    There is no questioning the ease of use of fractional rigs, but it comes at a cost. And those advantages start diminishing as the rigs get bigger.
    If I was to built a go-anywhere boat like the OP, I would likely choose a Bermuda masthead rig, next choice would be a gaff, last choice would be a fractional.

    Sent from my F3113 using Tapatalk

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    And now to raise something completely different. Fully battened high roach sails.

    I've sailed a great deal in both and Marmalade is, of course, gaff. There are reasons I redesigned Meg's rig from the short gaffs LFH drew to the three cornered high roach sails I am getting.

    First, some dynamics of the conversion:

    The mizzen mast height for the luff and head lengths is just right. The main mast is taller in proportion the mainsail even though the proportions (simple luff/foot but it works for all the ratios you can think of) because LFH had to give it that height for the triadic to clear the main gaff. As it happened, with Squeteague sailmakers, we were able to design a high roach fully battened main that fit the main mast and still had the same sail area as the LFH plan. To make a mizzen that carried the same SA as the original, I had to lengthen the mizzen mast by about 18". Then I gave both masts another couple inches to get the booms just a scooch higher.

    I have become a huge fan of full length battens for any boat. Marmalade picked up 90 square feet with those buggers creating a mainsail of exceptional authority. Before that I'd made fully battened sails for Granuaile (55' 20T LFH Marco Polo). It's strange till you analyse it, but the added sail area and weight aloft actually decrease healing while increasing sail power. And you've not lived till you let the sail fall happily between the lazy lifts so neat and nice you really don't even need sail stops unless you're at a dock with side winds or it's going to blow up over a Strong Breeze (Force 6, 22+ knots).

    The disadvantage is initial cost. Those battens are expensive and the sailmaker must understand the process which is a little different from regular bermudian sails. That cost is off-set by longevity. These sails are strong and with modern more UV resistant cloth should last till your children grow up, at least.

    Just a thought. But if you don't go fully battened, stick to the Atkin plan. Almost everything about gaff rig spells chafe, rigging stress aloft, and extra stuff to break.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I am at work so gotta be quick!

    There is no "budget" it costs what it costs and I will find the cash to get her built as best as I know how. It's not a cheap boat to build, no point skimping on the rig.

    I am much more concerned with the cost for upkeep (maintance, repair, replacement) than the initial cost but I would assume they are closely correlated. I am cool with upfront long lasting purchases like winches, blocks... The things that need replacing more often are of a bigger concern.

    part of the goal once she is built is to have as low a cost of living as possible. Probably means a lot of sailing and not much motoring, living on the hook and staying in off the beaten path locations. All are fine stipulations by me! ��
    Having a rig that is cheaper to maintain/longer lasting would be ideal.

    Fractional verse masthead, I have heard these terms but that is about it. Time to do some research.

    I am learning and loving it!

    Thanks!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I have owned both, and I love a gaff rig, but I would choose marconi. I own a ketch with a similar rig now, and like her as-is. My former boat, a Friendship yawl, had a gaff main about 256sqft, iirc. Wandering Star, my 39' ketch, has a marconi main about 360sqft. I have sailed on larger gaffers as crew, but routinely single hand both the ketch, and formerly the yawl. I find the marconi sail easier to set and strike alone at the larger size.
    Don't make yourself to crazy about the decision though. Choose one and go with it.
    If you ever want to sail my ketch, contact me and come on down. There is a fg Ingrid in my harbor too, but sloop rigged. I've sailed her, I can probably get you a sail on her too.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Steve, Your desire to not have winches plays into gaff territory.
    The headsls will always be bigger on a bermudian rig. Longer luff and more lap. The few boats that I see sailing without winches are gaff. (I have added them as we got older).
    It is the need to get those big jibs tight, that makes the compression rig (bermudian) necessary.
    Sweating up halyards on a cruise is not a big deal ,lmo, I have 8/1 tweakers on peak and jib. It is getting the jib sheet tight that has gotten the best of me on long beats.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I should add that we very well might sew the sails ourselves. I have access to a industrial machine (my buddy just sewed new sails for his boat with it) and my ma is one hell of a seamstress. If we can get solid plans I am sure we could stitch em together.
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  23. #58
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    Iain, could you explain why the large roach decreases heeling?

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  24. #59
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid




    "oh silly me did I drop that? oh it's nothing... just one of those old fashion out dated gaff rigs that are really all for show"

    "ooops!"


  25. #60
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    I have done a fair bit if offshore (and coastal) on both gaff and bermudian ketches. Both work well and are potentially good rigs for the Ingrid if they are set up right and used correctly. I will try to give my unbiased thoughts on the gaff rig.

    Gaff ketch rig. Advantages

    More sail area with a large lightweight topsail set high above the main. This typically makes the gaffer faster in light airs, even to windward, as long as the topsail is set correctly and some sort of effective jib topsail is set to match the Bermudian rigs light genoa.

    It's possible to raise, lower and reef the main on all points of sail without expensive hardware such as batcars or fancy sailtracks

    If the lazyjacks (and topping lifts)are set up right (inside the end of the gaff) the gaff never fouls on them as the battens can on a bermudian rig. This is a particular advantage of the gaff ketch which often has the main gaff about the same length as the boom.

    The gaff sail is very easy to drop and stow provided proper lazyjacks are rigged. Gravity is on your side, and the sail stows neatly along the boom inside the lazyjacks often with minimal need to tidy it up and lash it down. The weight of the gaff prevents it from bellowing away. However its best to always put at least a few lashings on it. We once had a big gust half raise the main gaff at anchor.

    The gaff definitely has more drive reaching and running, and the drive seems to stabilise the boat better downwimd with less rolling.

    The rig is very low tech, there is not much that can't easily be fixed with very simple tools.

    On a gaff ketch a simple self tending vang can be rigged from the mizzen masthead to the gaff. This transforms the rig and exactly sets and controls the twist of the upper part and the topsail. It also controls the gaff during a gybe, and holds it off the shrouds when running. In light airs it can be sheeted tight to prevent the gaff slaming. If it is rigged correctly up the mizzen mast to a block, along the gaff to the throat, then down the luff to the deck it doesn't need adjusting or tending when the gaff is raised and lowered, and can't throw a clove hitch around the mizzen masthead.

    The topsail makes for a quick and easy first reef, and scandilising the gaff can quickly depower the sail.

    The gaff rig looks distinctive and unique in world full of Bermudan rigs

    The sail tends to outlive a bermudian sail, it holds its shape better, due to being better supported along the edges and having a lower aspect. A vertical cut sail works ok and is less likely to tear leech to luff along a seam.

    Lots more ropes and strings to play with. Setting topsails can be fun, and if you have a bigger motivated crew it can be great team building as there is enough ropes and jobs for everyone.

    The running backstays open the middle of the boat up for a very effective mizzen staysail, without any issues getting it around a standing backstay.

    Generally smaller sails that are individually easy to handle.


    Gaff rig disadvantages

    The gaff can slam in a big swell with light airs. A vang to the mizzen mast helps control this as does a good light topsail.

    Two halyards per sail, both with multipart tackles mean much more rope to deal with, and windage, chafe and cost. One halyard and one winch is probably much cheaper. Topsails add yet more complexity and ropes.

    Two spars per sail, so more cost and work to build.

    Less of a 'knowledge' base of how to design, rig and best handle a modern gaffer. There is an immense body of knowledge about the bermudian rig and the equivalent has been lost or is much harder to find for the gaff rig. Eg its harder to find a sailmaker that really understands how to make a topsail set well on a gaffer.

    It is harder to sympathetically integrate modern technology such as roller reefing headsails, winches and clutches into a gaff rig, and not change its character or run into unexpected issues such as forestay sag causing problems with roller reefing extrusion joins, or winches overloading parts of the rig.

    The topsail, while it can be a handy first reef and is a cery powerful sail, is often a pretty drastic reduction of sail area and leading edge length. Especially to windward the loss of the topsail can really hurt performance. Often we will set a topsail over a reefed main, to claw back some leading edge. This is a compromise in many ways, it can be harder to get the topsail to set well, and you normally have to drop the topsail to reef the main, then set it again. Other options are a smaller topsail, but this is more complexity.

    Once the jib topsail comes off (or bags up due to a saggy luff) windward performance is going to be worse than a Bermudian rig with its standing backstay and long tight forestay.

    Running backstays are a nuisance. Aft led shrouds and no runners can make it hard to get a tight rig.

    Even with runners the whole rig is looser. Forestay tension is lower. Attempting to increase tension with powerful runners is often doomed to failure, as the lower portion of the mast is more limber and less well supported so you just start bending stuff due to the staying angles and long unsuported length. The only way to deal with this is shorter forestays. So you just can't easily run a big masthead genoa or yankee in strong winds like you can with a well stayed in column Bermudian rig.

    Chafe can be a bigger problem, simply due to the amount of rope, blocks and leads aloft, and things like topsails set on one side of the peak halyards.

    Do you go for a long pole mast with a jib headed topsail, a short pole mast with a jackyard topsail, or a separate light topmast and jib headed topsail? All have pro's and cons and other permutations are out there. Jib headed topsails have issues with keeping the luff tight and straight. Yard topsails set very well and bend to depower themselves, but they generally harder to set, hand and stow. Especially on a 38 footer. Where the yard is getting biggish.

    Setting and stowing a topsail takes a good setup, practice and good technique. It's another sail to buy and handle. Dont even think about not having a topsail as an option. On this kind of gaffer the topsail is a working sail.

    Typically the work load on a gaffer will be greater, both sailing and maintenance wise due to the greater numner of sails, ropes and spars. The work is for the most part fun, and in bad weather the light sails are stowed and the lowers are easy to deal with. But it is still more work. Just raing the gaff takes more energy due to its weight. However you can easily raise it by yourself by pulling both halyards (peak and throat) together.

    If it were my boat I'd find it a tough call. Both rigs have advantages and disadvantages. I'd probably go gaff for the extra horsepower and romance. But I grew up on a gaff ketch and have a soft spot for the rig.

    The Ingrid will look lovely either way.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    About 25 years ago , a buddy bought an unfinished fiberglass Ingrid. He had daysailed with me a bit on Woody and liked my rig. He was a newby who had dreams and not much experience and not much money. I helped him out with this rig. He built the spars in my front yard . He finished it after I left cruising , so many things were amateurish, (pink stern), but he sailed her for awhile on the Puget Sound. Life got in the way for him and he abandoned the boat about ten years ago . ( forum member Tim Hooen bought her, then soon sold her).
    Anyway , I have one old photo of her . I simply took the drawing of Woodwinds rig and superimposed it to the Ingrid profile. No pro or architect involved .

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I used to carry a third "flying jib" on a second bowsprit, or nosepole. It helped the boat sail ALMOST like a regular cruising bermudian boat . As usual , when we got older and put a big engine in (40hp) , I got rid of the nosepole .True , I treat her as a motorsailer now.
    If the vessel is rigged bermudian , you will need either a selection of 2 or 3 jibs which will need to be taken off and changed with wind changes. This is a dangerous pita for a bigger boat . Of course the alternative is to do what most do and carry a roller furler . The cost of a good jib and good furler will be almost as much as a new diesel.
    With a gaffer rigged like this...

    one just puts them up and takes them down . We avoid taking them off and on . (in this pic I was day racing so the staysail and inner stay were removed). I had 7 sails then (mizzen staysl).
    So , keep in mind when folks speak of the advantage of bermudian , 99 percent have that roller furler.
    It is maybe the last piece of gear I would put on my boat.
    The blue jib was just 4 oz dingy cloth. We set it and struck it like a chute, off the wind, then tightened the hoist by sending the tackline to the windlass on deck . When set, the luff/tackline was the tightest line on the boat.It went well 55 degrees to the wind.
    Last edited by wizbang 13; 05-29-2017 at 10:35 AM.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Snow Pea ,
    Sounds like you know your stuff!

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Stitching your own sails will certainly cause you to realize that sailmakers are not over-paid. If you can, use SailRite or a local sailmaker you trust to cut the panels and leave you the work of stitching the seams (about 25% of post cut work) and tabling/roping edges, making batten pockets, reef points, and all that stuff (the other 75%). There are books that purport to teach you sail design but it's a bit like asking a woodworker to make a jet engine from an instruction book and some scrap metal.

    Remember that you want a table/slide arrangement that goes a nudge more than the longest seam both into and out from the sewing machine. It can be temporary. I built a sail in a canvass working loft that was fine for making biminies but not long enough for the sail. So I dad planks going from the tables to windows on each side and out about six feet. No long seams on rainy or windy days.

    Meg has no halyard or sheet winches.

    For the jib we have a camber spar jib that's lower stress anyway and a 2:1 halyard will do it. You don't want more than 100% jib for that boat anyway so even without camber spar, 2:1 will get you enough luff tension once you learn how to sweat the line. And if you're really crazy, make a 4:1 or even 6:1 downhaul for the tack.

    Main and mizzen go up with straight pull halyards. Luff tension by sliding gooseneck and downhaul with whatever advantage I decide I need.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    [QUOTE=Mark Bowdidge;5247936]I know it is, but it seems that its being ignored.
    Surely more questions can be asked.
    I mean, does have the original plans that offer both rigs or, does he only have the Bermudan sail plan?
    If he doesn't have the gaff plan, is he prepared to pay to have it engineered and drawn up. ? It not a small boat where one can muck around and guess. It has to be done properly. Lives can be a stake here.
    Either way whether it be Bermudan or gaff, is he building it himself.?
    Does he want keel stepped or deck stepped?
    What type of rigging? Stainless or galvinised (you can have either on both rigs)

    Thanks for asking questions =)

    I have plans (I assume they are original) from Atkins, they specify a bermudan rig, hollow spruce mast, 43'8" for main, 29'2" for mizzen. main= 346 sqft, mizzen= 185 sqft, jib= 162 sqft, st.sail=123 sqft, total = 816

    Yes, if I switch to gaff I will certainly hire a competent NA and will post the plans here for critique.

    I do intend to build much/if not all of it myself. I felled the trees and milled the lumber, I doubt I would go that far and hire someone else for the rig. If I rig it I will know and understand the rigging much more intimately than if I hired it out. I want to know every inch of her and know it well.

    The plans call for a keel stepped main and a deck stepped mizzen. I may be able to shuffle the motor a bit and keel step the mizzen. On the plans it hits the motor but I am sure motors are more compact these days and a electric auxiliary is in the cards and would be significantly smaller. I would not object to keel stepping the mizzen, I am sure it would be stronger keel stepped.

    I am unsure of stainless or galvanized. As a climber I am very familiar with the newer synthetic fibers and could entertain the the idea of a wire free rig if possible. I do like working with the soft rigging more than steel cable.

    Hope that helps!
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Foster Price View Post
    For those who are banging on about sticking to the "plans" I think you'll find that despite the "plans" supplied these days showing the Bermudian rig, but the "originals" offered both.
    It would be worth talking to the good folks at Atkin&Co about getting the gaff sail plan just so you can see what it looks like. I imagine the masts might be moved to accommodate the different COE for the two rigs which could quite possibly affect the interior layout, or not but it is hard tell without pictures. There are undoubtedly trade-offs in performance between the two rigs but without being able to sail them side by side we'll never know how significant the differences are.

    You've taken on a monumental project that is going to take a lot of drive to see it through the inevitable peaks and troughs. What do you see when you close your eyes and picture departure day? Build that one.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I betcha the spars can go in the same place. Bowsprit would be longer.
    On a long reach, One can pick up the windward lift and crack off the peak to reduce helm.
    My first reef is usually the mizzen,not the topsl.
    Gaff DOES have an issue with chafe aloft, I have avoided synthetic(spectra)because of this.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    It would be worth talking to the good folks at Atkin&Co about getting the gaff sail plan just so you can see what it looks like. I imagine the masts might be moved to accommodate the different COE for the two rigs which could quite possibly affect the interior layout, or not but it is hard tell without pictures. There are undoubtedly trade-offs in performance between the two rigs but without being able to sail them side by side we'll never know how significant the differences are.

    You've taken on a monumental project that is going to take a lot of drive to see it through the inevitable peaks and troughs. What do you see when you close your eyes and picture departure day? Build that one.

    I can certainly drop them a line and see if I can get a copy. If nothing else it would be interesting to see.

    I guess I see bermudian but I have spent hours staring at the plans so that certainly plays a part.

    It is a pretty big project and will take some serious drive. Thankfully I am doing it with a great friend so that helps keep the enthusiasm.

    I also get asked every single day "how's the boat coming along", often by multiple people, friends will shake my hand and slip me a $20 and say "for the boat" or won't let me buy drinks cause my money has "higher priorities", folks drop by on the weekend just to see what's going on and I have not even cut the keel timber yet! It has blown my mind how people have reacted to me doing this. They all believe I can and all want to see me do it, many want a annual vacation in the future but that's ok. I have a best friend and a whole bloody town behind me. If I quit I would have to move far far away! I would never live it down! hahah!
    But in all seriousness I would regret not finishing her for the rest of my life, for that reason alone there is no lack of drive. Never mind the angry mob.
    No pressure
    lol
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Sail a bermudan on the Solent, and nobody will look at it twice. Sail a gaffer, lugger or schooner and everybody picks up their binoculars...Neither is it the novelty, the gaff rigged pilot cutters crossing the bay draw your eye and look majestic. It's something to do with having three sails and only being able to focus on two with the human eyeball that creates it.

    Paradoxically what was the workboat rig and surpassed by the upper classes in bermudan yachts has reversed. Now the bermudan Bavaria is the standard working fair for going about the Solent and gaff cutters reserved for those boats like the pilot cutters for the very rich in money or time that can afford a handmade boat.

    I would have concerns regarding back stays, gaff spars and the two halyards when reefing, but if your not sailing with auxilliary down wind sails the extra drive off the wind of a gaff's planform is palpable and would be surely advantageous on typical downwind tradewind voyaging. Sail a bermudan on a reach and as you bear away downwind it all goes off the boil. In the same situation the gaff will keep pulling in my experience.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 05-29-2017 at 01:51 PM.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    One rarely "reefs" a gaff ketch this size. We just drop the top or mizzen or staysl. or all three . By
    the time I need to reef the main, I will usually drop it and put the mizzen back up. These are the simple things missed by folks who only imagine sailing on the ocean or only read about it.

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