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Thread: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

  1. #1
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    Default Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I might be opening a can of worms but here goes =)

    I am building an Atkin Ingrid http://atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Ingrid.html

    There is a thread for the build under Building and Repair titled "Building Arabella, an Atkin Ingrid"

    You can also find more info here www.acorntoarabella.com

    The plans call for a bermudan rig and numerous people have told me I should consider a gaff rig. I have to admit there is something about the look of a gaff rig that draws me to it but I am sure Atkins designed her with a bermudan for a reason.

    I have read countless debates about the rigs but it is usually comparing different boats, uses, etc. So it leaves a lot of variables in play.

    My question is which rig would you choose and why?

    The boat will usually be sailed with 2-4 people but I would like her to be able to be single handed, maybe not in a busy harbor but I would be loath to always be reliant on having crew.

    The goal, dream, desire is to go to far flung wild places. I am a avid climber so places like Baffin Island, Patagonia, Alaska, fjords of Norway all are places I desire to sail to and spend a significant amount of time in. Bumming around the tropics is also a very likely scenario.

    Ingrid was chosen because she can haul a bunch of gear without being terrible burdened and Atkin claims "She has all the characteristics usually associated with seagoing ability. She is the kind of boat that behaves in rough water. She can be depended upon to sail herself. She is ableness personified. And equal to any situation. "

    I would like a rig to match that description; strong, easily inspected and maintained are high priorities.

    If I do switch to a gaff rig I would like to get some plans drawn sooner than later so I can accommodate any changes during the build. I would hate to decide and have to alter things later.

    Looking forward to hearing your thoughts either way!

    Thanks!

    Steve
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    In principle it doesn't matter as long as the Centre of Effort of the sail plan stays in about the same place, certainly longitudinally and preferably vertically as well – or at least doesn't go higher.

    But there are a lot of practical considerations. Attractive as gaff is, unless you go "modern", it is more work, especially single handed. I've built several modern gaff rigs (schooners, all of them – and a lot bigger at 55'), with lots of hydraulics and/or electrics for sail handling – and they could conceivably be single handed. But if you are going to stick with a traditional gaff rig, it is undeniably more work, more lines to deal with – and the gaff slamming about when lowering the main, or reefing.

    Our family boat, Landfall (1958), was similar size, 38' LOA, plus a short bowsprit, cutter headed bermudian ketch. Heavy, long keel. She was (well still is) a delight to sail, seaworthy, blue water cruising sail boat, and I could pretty well handle her myself under all circumstances, including crowded anchorages. Had she been gaff rigged, which our previous family boat was, then I don't think I could have done that.

    Personally, as much as I love a gaff rig, and despite some advantages that it does have, I would stick with bermudian for what you want to do.

    Cheers -- George
    Last edited by debenriver; 05-27-2017 at 08:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I think there is an unwritten law of the sea that says you don't mess with Atkin designs. It would be almost as bad as monkeying with a Herreshoff. Not that I have ever built or sailed either.
    There is no rational, logical, or physical description of how free will could exist. It therefore makes no sense to praise or condemn anyone on the grounds they are a free willed self that made one choice but could have chosen something else. There is no evidence that such a situation is possible in our Universe. Demonstrate otherwise and I will be thrilled.

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Atkin drew both gaff and bermudan style in that size range, so i would not hesitate to swap one for the other. The only thing i can offer is that Steve Caldwell (i think) had a plastic version, and he re-rigged it with an even bigger sail plan than specified, bermudan, and gained a much improved performance. Im sure there was an article about it somewhere, i recall him complaining about "dull" performance when she was well loaded down. You might consider something like a Tayana 37 or bigger, should you want to save some time and money, the mountains might always be there, but the physical ability to climb them does fade......

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I did about what you are doing 35 years ago.
    But at 28, I had already sailed, built and wrecked boats.
    There was never a doubt my next "real" boat would be a gaff ketch.
    Performance can mean other things than speed.
    It is the difference between simple and easy.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I actually prefer Bermudan rigs. More efficient and there are so many sail combinations one can do without adding all that weight up high

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    My friend Jack Crooks (since passed) circumnavigated in a gaff rigged Ingrid that he built himself in the late 50's. Jack was a dinghy racing guy and certainly well understood bermudian rig at the time he built Tuarangi.

    I discussed this with him a few times and from these talks I understood his considerations were primarily based on the passage-making he intended to undertake - primarily downwind and reaching type courses, at which he considered a gaff rig excels on a cruising boat. Cost was also a big factor, gaff can be built "low tech" (even more-so with modern materials) and with out so much resort to factory fittings.

    Tuarangi (much later under new ownership) was rerigged to a Bermudian sail plan, Jack and I visited on her a couple of times in various ports but I don't recall him telling me if he sailed on her under the "new" rig. I could possibly contact his widow if that sort of detail interests you.

    PS Jack on his return from the circumnavigation fished with Tuarangi, often alone and without much if anything of an engine, so single-handed is possible if you're a seaman of some calibre (and nerve to fish Foveaux Strait and Stewart Is waters)
    Last edited by Foster Price; 05-28-2017 at 05:05 AM. Reason: addition

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Have you priced out a big jib for a bermudian rig with accompanying roller gizmo?
    The jib I have been using for the past 3 years(ok. 6 months a year), is a re cut T bird main I got for $25.
    folks who are not up to speed on gaff tend to be afraid of the gaff itself, but I tend to be afraid of the 15 extra feet of mast that I do not have.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Thanks for the thoughts so far!

    The shorter masts and down wind performance certainly have their appeal. A fella who has a similar but slightly smaller Atkin double ender lost his mast in some bad weather and said he believed if he had a shorter stouter mast "gaff rigged" he would not have lost his mast. He is one of the surprisingly numerous people to tell me to consider a gaff rig. Most of which cited the lower rig and down wind performance when crossing with the trades as the reason why.

    I have not not priced any sails or rigging yet. I have no qualms with modern materials for the rig when it comes to lines, pulleys....but there won't be electric winches or that sort of thing.

    I like simple much more than I like easy, it's a big part of the reason I chose to build a Ingrid. Not cheap, not easy but she is simple and stout, same reason I hunt with a antique double barrel 20 gauge and a recurve bow, I love the simplicity.

    Bruce-
    can you elaborate on your statement of "difference between simple and easy".

    I wish I had started younger, I was all set to take off and chase adventures after high school but was "strongly guided" into continuing my education. I was told I could do all that adventure stuff later and a degree would be good to fall back on...... Turns out the degrees are almost worthless and student loans are tough buggers to pay back. Starting your adult life $75,000 in the hole is a sure fire way to handcuff someone.
    I turned 30, took stock of my life and said Fuck this. I am now 32 and close to pouring my keel. I led the first 1/3 of my life doing more or less as I was told to do and I was led into a corner. I am going to spend the next 1/3 doing it my way and I'll decide which I liked better for the last 1/3 = ) this is all assuming I can stay kicking until I am 90.

    Whatever rig I start with I have no issue switching down the road. Part of the joy of building something is if you don't like it you have the ability to change it =)
    ACORN TO ARABELLA
    For additional info on this project:

    www.acorntoarabella.com
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAi...WB1xCp6uuUo0VA

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I'd stick with the Bermudan, now without getting the old farts writing screeds about how gaff is better, Ill state the obvious.; Its not.

    Bermudans are common, well understood, heaps of second hand gear available, sail really well, easy to handle, etc etc etc. Gaffs are ok but apart from tipping your hat to yesteryear, they are an affectation on most boats.
    whatever rocks your boat

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Couple of comments for you.
    I don't think a gaff rig is any less risky than a simple Bermudian rig such as you have. The failure of a stay in either will bring the rig down. Failure of a spreader is a mater of spotting and reacting to unload the rig.

    You don't need winches on a boat this size but you will be supprised by the sheet loads on the headsails. Make sure the winches are well fastened down and you have the best quality low streach sheets you can afford.

    Re gaff rig, reaching they have some benifits, but ask the gaff sailers about a Chinese gybe while running, that could take the rig out if you are slow on the running back stays.

    Upwind the gaff is slower but can be made to work OK. Question is do you want to do things like twin quarter sheeting or full width travelers to enable you to get enough down force on the boom to stop the gaff sagging off to leeward. What about fitting a gaff vang?.
    And the running back stays to give tension to the staysail and jib stays to stop them sagging off.

    I sail a 34'10" x 10'4" x 5' yawl of around 8-9 ton with 3.5 tn of lead and we would have 800 sq foot with the large headsail up. You are longer, wider and deeper which suggests to me that you need to look at adding some extra sail area for those days of under 10-12 knots.
    Ie large headsail and mizzen staysails Rock.

    Zane

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Have you priced out a big jib for a bermudian rig with accompanying roller gizmo?
    The jib I have been using for the past 3 years(ok. 6 months a year), is a re cut T bird main I got for $25.
    folks who are not up to speed on gaff tend to be afraid of the gaff itself, but I tend to be afraid of the 15 extra feet of mast that I do not have.
    But you can do exactly the same sort of thing with a bermudan rig, and the jibs don't have to be big.

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    and and and.... you can actually have a masthead rig with with a permanent backstay which is safer than any gaff setup and you get forestay tension for upwind sailing.
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Small gaffs are fun, big ones have a lot of issues which is why they have gone the way of the Dodo.
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post

    I like simple much more than I like easy, it's a big part of the reason I chose to build a Ingrid. Not cheap, not easy but she is simple and stout, same reason I hunt with a antique double barrel 20 gauge and a recurve bow, I love the simplicity.
    If you like simple, why go for something with an extra spar, probably an extra headsail, stay and set of sheets, topping lifts and all the rest of the gaff gear?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I've done some sailing on both types of rigs but never offshore where it really matters. So I'll keep my opinion to myself. Mostly I just want to add that I find this discussion quite interesting and valuable. I hope it keeps on the high road and doesn't get too contentious and nasty.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    My $0.02, gaff.
    Shroud tensions are relatively much lower with a gaff.
    Headstay tensions will be controlled with running backs.
    Jibing was never a problem, just sheet in the main, jibe, set up new backstay, release old back, and ease out main.
    Reaching is a joy.
    I would advocate plenty of sail area (SA/D~16-18) and adequate ballast.
    The major extra effort I found was just in raising the main.
    For the first reef, the throat halyard stayed cleated, peak was slacked and then re tensioned.
    A good set of lazy jacks made lowering the main, even going downwind in 20 its, easy peasy.
    Truth, 30' cutter, would go to weather without a hand on the helm, the long sail plan allowed balancing, the tiller would just wave back and forth a little.
    Good luck

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I've sailed both types. I'd say if you were just doing coastwise sailing, a gaff would be the way to go. For offshore I'll disagree with Bruce and go with Bermudan. The reason is for reefing, with the gaff you have two halyards to deal with, but the compelling reason is that when you lower the sail, even with tight topping lift/lazy jack combination, that gaff swinging around is horribly dangerous. It's what killed Eric Tabarly and he was the greatest sailor/seaman of the 20th century.

    I used to sail a 50' gaff schooner single handed with no autopilot, but only in moderate conditions. As a delivery skipper I've sailed a lot of miles, often with not so great crew (most have been wonderful). I've never sailed a gaffer offshore and would not have done it without well qualified crew.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I own and sail a Marconi rigged Atkin cutter of similar proportions to Ingrid, a veteran of several long ocean passages, one of them singlehanded. I also had the opportunity to sail from Antigua to Lunenburg this spring aboard a friend's similarly sized gaff rigged cutter. No contest in my view. Go with Marconi. Easier to rig (fewer spars and fewer strings), easier to manage (it takes two to raise or lower a gaff sail of any size, one on the throat and one on the peak), better to windward (especially when you really need it, deeply reefed in a hard chance), more secure (no spar aloft flailing about when things start to come adrift, no fooling around with running backs in a gybe). I do concede that a gaffer is nice to look at, that a main topsail adds speed and power disproportionate to its size and the overall loads on rig and hull are lower. But in my opinion that does not come close to balancing the scales.

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    For coastwise sailing, not passage making, I would opt for the gaff rig with solid stick and laced on sail. You may be able to omit backstays altogether. With a short cable loop from the mizzen mast to serve as a main boom crutch the boom can be easily controlled by a singlehander. The additional sail of the gaff main and its low center will be of great benefit for this heavy boat.

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Personally, I'd go for gaff for your purposes - for most of the reasons variously given above.

    A couple of thoughts:

    - A well designed gaff rig (especially at your size) need not have running backstays; Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters managed fine without.
    - Consider having the gaff spar made from something modern and lighter; carbon fibre pole or alloy, for example
    Nick

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson Fitt View Post
    I own and sail a Marconi rigged Atkin cutter of similar proportions to Ingrid, a veteran of several long ocean passages, one of them singlehanded. I also had the opportunity to sail from Antigua to Lunenburg this spring aboard a friend's similarly sized gaff rigged cutter. No contest in my view. Go with Marconi. Easier to rig (fewer spars and fewer strings), easier to manage (it takes two to raise or lower a gaff sail of any size, one on the throat and one on the peak), better to windward (especially when you really need it, deeply reefed in a hard chance), more secure (no spar aloft flailing about when things start to come adrift, no fooling around with running backs in a gybe). I do concede that a gaffer is nice to look at, that a main topsail adds speed and power disproportionate to its size and the overall loads on rig and hull are lower. But in my opinion that does not come close to balancing the scales.
    Experience counts, the only reason to go with a gaff is looks and as part of your boat hobby. Rigging loads are not necessarily greater on a marconi rig and weight aloft is considerably reduced meaning a less tender boat or more sail carrying power. All the talk about reaching and running is nonsense, on a reach any comparable marconi rig can get to the same hull speed as a gaff. The only advantage a gaff has running is if you don't want to set a downwind sail or pole out a headsail in certain conditions but you do have all the risk of running backs and horrendous gybes in breeze. You do not want to single hand a large gaff sail as mentioned.

    All the talk of gaffs having an advantage through being low tech are no longer valid because modern sail handing gear and techniques are extremely well proven and reliable as well as there being vast amounts of gear all easily available second hand.

    You have to remember where you are asking this question, on a wooden boat forum full of "traditionalists" who favour gaffs just because arrrggghh by gum me hearties!, many have never had real experience like Wilsons comment demonstrates. However if you like the look of a gaff then build one but dont be fooled that they are superior to a modern marconi rig because they are not.
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Cumming View Post
    For coastwise sailing, not passage making, I would opt for the gaff rig with solid stick and laced on sail. You may be able to omit backstays altogether. With a short cable loop from the mizzen mast to serve as a main boom crutch the boom can be easily controlled by a singlehander. The additional sail of the gaff main and its low center will be of great benefit for this heavy boat.
    What a load of total nonsense! coastal sailing is where you may need good windward ability, more sailing handling etc, all negatives for a gaff. Additional sail? low centre? Hello William Aitkin wasn't a country bumpkin, he designed the boat with the right sail and "centre"
    whatever rocks your boat

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    lets face the facts, a gaff will allow you to set more sail area in small doses than any Bermudan rig can hope to do, while the Marconi is fine for round the bouys racing in tidly little cockle shells you will want a real rig for deep water passage making.

    we all know the inspiration for Ingrid were the ground breaking designs of Colin Archer, painstakingly developed, specifically to put to sea in the absolute worst of conditions and claw their way to windward in any sort of weather.


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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    [QUOTE=sdenette;5247013]

    The plans call for a bermudan rig[/QUOTE ]

    I like the look of the gaff rug, but haven't sailed with one. I think the conventional wisdom backed by some very seasoned opinions is build it and sail it as drawn. I don't know the sail area/displacement. If it's on the low side you could go for a taller rig with hollow spars (it wouldn't surprise me if the original rig had pole masts). The mule in the article linked below might also be of interest.


    http://www.dabblersails.com/blog/blo...id=45&pic_id=3

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    lets face the facts, a gaff will allow you to set more sail area in small doses than any Bermudan rig can hope to do, while the Marconi is fine for round the bouys racing in tidly little cockle shells you will want a real rig for deep water passage making.

    we all know the inspiration for Ingrid were the ground breaking designs of Colin Archer, painstakingly developed, specifically to put to sea in the absolute worst of conditions and claw their way to windward in any sort of weather.
    Why set more sail in small doses when you can set less sail more efficiently and with less complexity?

    By the way, I think "Teddy" was the first Colin Archer to go world cruising. She sank because she was poor upwind in light airs. Her owner bought another Colin Archer - she pitchpoled and one of the crew was killed.

    Oh, and the most famous of Atkins' Colin Archer-style boats was Suhaili. Her owner, a master mariner, gave her a bermudan rig and she was the first boat to sail non-stop around the world. Not bad for a mere cockleshell.
    Last edited by Chris249; 05-28-2017 at 06:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Oh, and the most famous of Atkins' Colin Archer-style boats was Suhaili. Her owner, a master mariner, gave her a bermudan rig and she was the first boat to sail non-stop around the world. Not bad for a mere cockleshell.
    Suhali is an Atkin "Eric". which, admittedly was based on Colin Archer, which in turn were based on working boats.

    He'd bought the plans privately, and it was not until he won, did he find out it was an Atkin, he promptly payed the design fee.

    Otherwise I agree with you, as usual.
    Last edited by Hwyl; 05-28-2017 at 06:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I think the default position has to be to build as the designer intended. To deviate from the plans would require a bit of money spent with another naval architect to get it right. I can't believe what I'm hearing from some members as they push their own barrows!
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Admittedly one of the most important factors in this decision is the builder and the budget!

    Marconi rigs are modern day advances that developed with hollow masts and an excedingly high level of fit and finish in yacht building, If you are planing on hiring out this rig to be professionally built by a master spar maker from a well known yard I'd say go for the Marconi, also if you are considering modern materials like an alloy or carbon mast the Marconi looks even more appealing. Marconi rigs also will likely require marine grade professionally made rigging and hardware... no hand carved locust deadeyes and galvanized hand wrought iron here... everything should be polished stainless and professionally swagged.

    If you are considering building the rig yourself, the Gaff Rig is a No Brainer... don't even consider the Marconi if you are a newbie boat builder. Gaffs evolved over centuries to be built of solid lumber and simple honest craftsmanship... with no glues or high tech flim flam! and have a proven ability to work in adverse conditions even when primative materials and techniques were the norm.


    you just need to decide which aesthetic is more pleasing and within your budget.
    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 05-28-2017 at 07:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    I think the default position has to be to build as the designer intended. To deviate from the plans would require a bit of money spent with another naval architect to get it right. I can't believe what I'm hearing from some members as they push their own barrows!
    I totally agree 100%.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Admittedly one of the most important factors in this decision is the builder and the budget!

    Marconi rigs are modern day advances that developed with hollow masts and an excedingly high level of fit and finish in yacht building, If you are planing on hiring out this rig to be professionally built by a master spar maker from a well known yard I'd say go for the Marconi, also if you are considering modern materials like an alloy or carbon mast the Marconi looks even more appealing. Marconi rigs also will likely require marine grade professionally made rigging and hardware... no hand carved locust deadeyes and galvanized hand wrought iron here... everything should be polished stainless and professionally swagged.

    If you are considering building the rig yourself, the Gaff Rig is a No Brainer... don't even consider the Marconi if you are a newbie boat builder. Gaffs evolved over centuries to be built of solid lumber and simple honest craftsmanship... with no glues or high tech flim flam! and have a proven ability to work in adverse conditions even when primative materials and techniques were the norm. you just need to decide which aesthetic is more pleasing and within your budget.
    Absolute rubbish.
    Marconi rigs are not modern advances, they have been around a long time. The fit and finish is up to the builder, they can be constructed from solid or hollow timber, metal or the best material of all carbon. All rigging should be “marine grade” as opposed to “home depot grade” even galvanised wire was traditionally parcelled and served. Modern synthetics have heralded an alternative to wire rigging, deadeyes and other “soft” technology are used in modern boats all the time, no need for everything to be polished stainless but should that be the case it will serve the purpose exceedingly well.
    As for the aesthetics, that is purely up to one’s taste but on a practical level the difference in cost is negligible.
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I think I would make one change to the bermudian rig as drawn – I would not have the main backstay attached to the mizzen.

    This puts quite a load into the mizzen and thus into the mizzen aft shrouds, which are at a fairly small angle with the mast, and not really designed for the purpose.

    I would split the main backstay just forward of the mizzen and bring two legs down to the quarters, so the main backstay is entirely independent of the mizzen. The picture below is Landfall, our family boat – built 1958 – 38' – so similar size (but counter sterned). You can see the main backstay split just forward of the mizzen and the port leg coming down to the quarter.

    She also has a triatic stay (really a mizzen forestay) but this was quite a nuisance as movement in one mast tended to induce movement in the other – specially when the mizzen was rattling about, as mizzens have the tendency to do. In the end we got rid of it as it didn't really perform a useful function.

    The sails in this photo are kutched canvas – later replaced with tan terylene, which was a big improvement, both for handling the sails and in performance.

    Landfall is currently in the Caribbean, along with one of her sister ships, Plieades.



    Landfall's rig was no more difficult or complicated to build than a gaff rig would be – in fact somewhat less so in many ways. The masts are hollow spruce, rectangular in section, so very easy to make up as a box. Similarly the booms. My father made all the fittings himself (galvanized mild steel). Everything else is relatively simple. Of her time, she had galvanized rigging and rigging screws, galvanized shroud plates and so on.

    Cheers -- George
    Last edited by debenriver; 05-28-2017 at 08:27 PM.
    To be truly free to live, one must be free to think and speak.

    A C Grayling

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Admittedly one of the most important factors in this decision is the builder and the budget!
    I'll address this separately; NO its not the most important factor.The most important factor is the design, i.e. it was designed as a marconi.

    lets face the facts, a gaff will allow you to set more sail area in small doses than any Bermudan rig can hope to do, while the Marconi is fine for round the bouys racing in tidly little cockle shells you will want a real rig for deep water passage making.

    we all know the inspiration for Ingrid were the ground breaking designs of Colin Archer, painstakingly developed, specifically to put to sea in the absolute worst of conditions and claw their way to windward in any sort of weather.
    Now you are definitely trolling.
    Last edited by Paul G.; 05-28-2017 at 08:31 PM.
    whatever rocks your boat

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Absolute rubbish.
    Marconi rigs are not modern advances, they have been around a long time. The fit and finish is up to the builder, they can be constructed from solid or hollow timber, metal or the best material of all carbon. All rigging should be “marine grade” as opposed to “home depot grade” even galvanised wire was traditionally parcelled and served. Modern synthetics have heralded an alternative to wire rigging, deadeyes and other “soft” technology are used in modern boats all the time, no need for everything to be polished stainless but should that be the case it will serve the purpose exceedingly well.
    As for the aesthetics, that is purely up to one’s taste but on a practical level the difference in cost is negligible.
    Complete hogwash.
    Marconi rigs have only been around since 1900+- in any great numbers and only then in the most modern and expensive racing yachts. the popularity of Marconi rigs has only exploded since modern adhesives and especially since Aluminum spars. The gaff and other traditional rigs hung on in pleasure boats untill the racing fads made pleasure sailors feel inferior and old fashion so they updated to follow the trends.

    lets face it the only reason Atkin likely gave Ingrid a marconi was to help it look speedy and modern and appeal to the latest trends in yachting at the time...

    oh never mind, I'm too busy boat building at the moment to bang on here

    just build the macaroni rig... or not.


  35. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    Bainbridge Island WA
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    2,186

    Default Re: Gaff or Bermudan for a Atkin Ingrid

    I just reread Joe Richards' "Princess" this week. In it he rebuilds and sails a classic Friendship Slopp all over the East Coast, eventually rebuilding her with a Marconi rig. He reports there was a pretty significant performance improvement with the new sail. It is one of the few first hand before and after accounts I've read.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

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