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Thread: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

  1. #246
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Me too, I would rather watch this than some twelves plodding around. Having superior boatspeed is always a winning tactic.

  2. #247
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Speaking for myself, I'm still thoroughly enjoying it. The Kiwis are one mistake from losing. They must have had great faith in their boatspeed not to tight cover.
    I think the thing with these boats is that the difference in speed between foiling and not is so huge, that if you are close covering and get it wrong, you've lost. Better to pull out the biggest distance margin you can, and hope that if you bury a hull, its enough to get back on the foils before the other guy rolls you. Unless of course conditions are such that neither team has a boat speed advantage.
    Now we have to wait a whole week for the next nail biting intstallment of The really nice guys from Down Under vs Crooked Larry

    Pete
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  3. #248
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    Me too, I would rather watch this than some twelves plodding around. Having superior boatspeed is always a winning tactic.
    These races are somewhat boring also. A horizon job at 5 knots or 35 knots is still boring to watch.
    There was a documentary on NBC about Ted Turner's 1977 Cup victory aboard Courageous. The boats seemed so, so simple as compared to these wacky contraptions that are raced nowadays. It was a pleasure watching a full team work together to win a race instead of just basically two guys controlling everything as is today. I could identify with monohull racing. What's going on today is just incomprehensible to me.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  4. #249
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    I think the thing with these boats is that the difference in speed between foiling and not is so huge, that if you are close covering and get it wrong, you've lost. Better to pull out the biggest distance margin you can, and hope that if you bury a hull, its enough to get back on the foils before the other guy rolls you. Unless of course conditions are such that neither team has a boat speed advantage.
    Now we have to wait a whole week for the next nail biting intstallment of The really nice guys from Down Under vs Crooked Larry

    Pete
    Well, if the other guy's boat is faster, boat handling is better and they can dictate your tactics, you are probably going to lose.
    Tom L

  5. #250
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    Me too, I would rather watch this than some twelves plodding around. Having superior boatspeed is always a winning tactic.

    My thoughts also.Anything dragging round several tons of ballast is fairly boring to watch.

  6. #251
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    I am hoping someone does a dvd of the J class event so we can see them racing.

    Great day for New Zealand as two Kiwis were part of the team that won LeMans.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  7. #252
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by jackster View Post
    I think you may miss the point here, at least mine.
    This is about being a fan. It's about giving the other a good-natured "ribbing".
    Being literal is not all that important, you understand?
    Maybe not.
    Sorry, I should have picked that up. In my defence, a lot of people on the internet do go over the top with patriotism.

  8. #253
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Sorry, I should have picked that up. In my defence, a lot of people on the internet do go over the top with patriotism.
    As "They" say,No worries, mate. (More good-natured ribbin...er kidding)

  9. #254
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    I think the thing with these boats is that the difference in speed between foiling and not is so huge, that if you are close covering and get it wrong, you've lost. Better to pull out the biggest distance margin you can, and hope that if you bury a hull, its enough to get back on the foils before the other guy rolls you. Unless of course conditions are such that neither team has a boat speed advantage.
    Now we have to wait a whole week for the next nail biting intstallment of The really nice guys from Down Under vs Crooked Larry

    Pete
    Hey, just because that Burling fella doesn't say much doesn't mean he doesn't beat his dog and kick his wife, ya know. ( Or is that the other way 'round?)
    And pit-bulls are just miss-understood!
    I still say...got 'em just where we want 'em!

    OH! Happy Fathers day all you dads. Spent today with my daughter.
    Last edited by jackster; 06-18-2017 at 05:38 PM.

  10. #255
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by jackster View Post
    Hey, just because that Burling fella doesn't say much doesn't mean he doesn't beat his dog and kick his wife, ya know. ( Or is that the other way 'round?)
    And pit-bulls are just miss-understood!
    I still say...got 'em just where we want 'em!

    OH! Happy Fathers day all you dads. Spent today with my daughter.
    That 'Burling fella' has always come across as decent, whereas that Spitball fella on Oracle has been pretty odious -- there is a youtube video showing him and his crew sailing the 72 ft Oracle I think, where they are being challenged by kid on a kite board. The kid was ripping along out in the ocean and there is Spitball suggesting they will just sail over him and "squash him like a bug"

  11. #256
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Interesting point made in the commentary today -- Artemis gave the Kiwis a much harder time, and would probably have easily beaten Oracle if they had been out there today. Will Ellison build a giant wind machine to guarantee 20 knots for the rest of the series? High wind seems to be his best hope.
    -Dave

  12. #257
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    My thoughts also.Anything dragging round several tons of ballast is fairly boring to watch.
    It's always very subjective, though. I watch ballasted mono racing very happily; I love things like the aesthetics of the wake, the heel, and the sailhandling crew work as well as the fact that I can relate what they are doing to the sailing that I do. I'm watching the AC50s a bit but I don't really find them very exciting - they go fast but flat, there's no close-quarters circling and that sort of stuff, the crew work is very hard to discern and unrelated to what I do, and the technology is too far distant from anything that I will own.
    Last edited by Chris249; 06-19-2017 at 03:30 AM.

  13. #258
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Lugalong View Post
    That 'Burling fella' has always come across as decent, whereas that Spitball fella on Oracle has been pretty odious -- there is a youtube video showing him and his crew sailing the 72 ft Oracle I think, where they are being challenged by kid on a kite board. The kid was ripping along out in the ocean and there is Spitball suggesting they will just sail over him and "squash him like a bug"
    Now I know why all the Kiwi comedians migrate to here.

    Rick

  14. #259
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Darn, I was watching the LV series recap at night with the NBS Sports app, but now the AC series is blocked. Is there another way to catch the recaps? I'm not that interested to sit in front of the tube in the middle of day to watch it in real time.
    Steve B
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Same here.
    Go back and watch that little thing they did on Ted Turner and Courageous. It satisfied my sailing-TV itch for the night.
    A boatless inlander, searching for the meaning of life-aground.

  16. #261
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    Same here.
    Go back and watch that little thing they did on Ted Turner and Courageous. It satisfied my sailing-TV itch for the night.
    The report they did on Ted Turner was very interesting and the best thing on sailing and the AC lately. We lived in Atlanta when much of this was going on but the media did not do nearly as well in covering it as this program did. Teddy Ballgame was a iconoclast to stodgy baseball and carried this over to the stodgy New York Yacht Club which tried their best to hold him down. I remember asking them for permission to just look at the AC trophy in NYC once and the reply went like this. "What, you, a mere grungy sailor from who knows where, want to gaze your grubby eyeballs on our trophy? On your way ruffian? Yeah, Ted was a thorn in the side of many people but I pulled hard for him against the NYYC and in the AC.
    Tom L

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    And like it or not, Ellison is carrying this same torch today.
    -Dave

  18. #263
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Calling the NYYC "Stodgy" is a vast understatement. My great-grandfather was a member & I'd been told there was a half hull of his boat on display in a room full of half hulls. Trying to get in to see it took over an hour (Are you a member? Why do you want to see it?, I'll have to check, etc. etc.).

    Stuck up might be a better description than stodgy.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  19. #264
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Speaking for myself, I'm still thoroughly enjoying it. The Kiwis are one mistake from losing. They must have had great faith in their boatspeed not to tight cover.
    Sometimes they cover, other times they depend on their own ability to read shifts and the fact that at this stage they are clearly much faster. Under the rules orchestrated by Ellison/Coutts (I mean every defender has done this, but I don't think there is much disagreement that Oracle has really attempted to stack the game in its favour - complete with the one win advantage going into the challenge final!), they may have tripped themselves up. These boats are essentially one designs with a pretty restricted ability to make major changes in the next five days - though no doubt they will be working 24 hours a day to come up with something! You can guarantee ETNZ will also be tweaking away for further speed gains.

    It is very possible that the NZ team is younger and hungrier, and that Burling is - Spithill's match racing expertise notwithstanding - a better sailor. NZ appears to have a much better allocation of crew duties allowing Burling to focus on steering and general tactical awareness. In my view the cyclors are a stroke of genius. One, the entire boat is significantly more streamlined giving them a major windage advantage - you only have to compare the grinders bobbing up and down and the Oracle afterguard having to virtually stand up to see over them - the flattest person on their boat is usually Slingsby when he has to go forward and prostrate himself on the foredeck praying for a windshift And the Kiwi cyclors are obviously much less stressed physically than the grinders. That difference will really begin to tell as the teams get into successive days of racing again.

    Despite the history of Oracle's previous comeback, and Jimmy's attempts to play mind games, the NZ team learnt from the experience, and Burling and the others are clearly completely unphased by trash talk.

    Not counting any chickens here, but this Kiwi is reasonably confident this time round.

    David

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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    I saw the 'US skipper' interviewed…………Australian. I understand the NZ boat has Aussie crew aa well.

    the only national connection being money does not make it an event where the 'winning' country can take any kudos.
    It's just very expensive entertainment for TV consumption using an experimental class as far as I can see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    And like it or not, Ellison is carrying this same torch today.
    Is he? From where I sit, he's extremely elitist. He's probably thrown more money at the Cup than anyone else, and he took it away from the most popular form of racing sailboat (ballasted monos) to big multis, which are just about the least popular form of racing sailboat. He also took it into foilers (extraordinarily unpopular among racing sailors, despite the hype) and wing masts (even less popular).

    The AC has traditionally been about big mainstream boats. The last three have been about something completely different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Calling the NYYC "Stodgy" is a vast understatement. My great-grandfather was a member & I'd been told there was a half hull of his boat on display in a room full of half hulls. Trying to get in to see it took over an hour (Are you a member? Why do you want to see it?, I'll have to check, etc. etc.).

    Stuck up might be a better description than stodgy.
    On the other hand, it's not a club I like, but when I was doing a regatta there everyone (and I'm not talking Wall Street or NYYC types) readily admitted that when it comes to regattas they are renowned for letting the crews party on, and I understand that is widely known. The only other time I went there was midweek, to sail with a member, and they were fine - very friendly in fact. Maybe it's something to do with the NY clubhouse alone?

  23. #268
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I saw the 'US skipper' interviewed…………Australian. I understand the NZ boat has Aussie crew aa well.

    the only national connection being money does not make it an event where the 'winning' country can take any kudos.
    It's just very expensive entertainment for TV consumption using an experimental class as far as I can see.
    I would agree there is not much "national" about these boats. Much more like Formula 1 car racing really. Softbank Japan had a Japanese sponsor, kiwi skipper, the US Oracle boat design, and an almost all foreign crew with a couple of Japanese switched in and out of grinding positions; Artemis had an Aussie skipper, mixed crew; the French and the Brits did have national skippers but mixed crew; Oracle has an Aussie skipper and tactitian, several Aussie crew members and a billionaire American sponsor.

    Aside from Aussie Glenn Ashby, who is the only holdover from the NZ team in the previous cup and is there to take some of the tactical and management load off so Burling can focus on steering the boat, Emirates Team NZ has an all kiwi crew. Plus a middle eastern airline as sponsor (which has been very loyal to the NZ effort) and virtually no NZ government backing.

    The more pertinent question might be why NZ and Aussie sailors are so very dominant at the very top levels of the sport, and why Oracle would be incapable of fielding an all American crew

    But I find the racing engrossing. Cant wait for next week's racing to start.
    David

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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    It's a pleasure to watch ETNZ manage the course and maneuvers. They are running like a g*dda*n machine, not unlike the way Oracle did in the San Francisco series at the end.
    "When I was a boy with never a crack in my heart."

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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    On the other hand, it's not a club I like, but when I was doing a regatta there everyone (and I'm not talking Wall Street or NYYC types) readily admitted that when it comes to regattas they are renowned for letting the crews party on, and I understand that is widely known. The only other time I went there was midweek, to sail with a member, and they were fine - very friendly in fact. Maybe it's something to do with the NY clubhouse alone?
    Could be - as that's where I interacted with them. One piece I left out is that I have the same name (first & last - but he had a middle name & I don't) as my great-grandfather & I showed them ID so they could look it up. More stuck up than the NY Social Register - and that takes some doing.
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I saw the 'US skipper' interviewed…………Australian. I understand the NZ boat has Aussie crew aa well.

    the only national connection being money does not make it an event where the 'winning' country can take any kudos.
    It's just very expensive entertainment for TV consumption using an experimental class as far as I can see.
    Well, given that America is a ‘country of immigrants’ as we are supposed to believe, then Coots and Spitball are just two more ‘immigrants’ behind the effort to win and keep the cup, although Coots still probably has his NZ citizenship while Spitball might still keep his Aussie papers.
    Their efforts as so called ‘American nationals’ could in any case be disputed on the grounds that they might rather be considered as illegals (if they don't actually have American citizenship) and the Americas cup is actually the cup won by the yacht America rather than by the country.
    More’s the pity that it is not still an event where boats are sailed to the competition venue and come away with the cup.
    As warped as it now is, where the craft are hardly seagoing boats and there is no definite home of either the craft or the pilots, the only thing that has not changed is that what counts most is the amount of money spent…… unless the young Kiwis win it this time around, and it will have come down to skill and effort on the water, since this is essentially a one design class.
    Mention of the notion that both contender and challenger were built in Auckland is a bit far fetched, because it is moreso that a bit of America was built in NZ to get this version of the competition rolling.
    Away from Auckland is a waterside village tht was used by Ellison to set up manufacturing facilities, and this sure did not help the place retain it’s charm and character as an NZ town. It did however bring in some of the stuck-up attitude that was apparently prevalent at the NYYC in the bad old days.
    Last edited by Lugalong; 06-19-2017 at 06:41 PM.

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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    I have sailed international classes all of my sailing life, so my viewpoint is perhaps less narrow than some, but I don't think you can have it both ways. You can't keep saying this is the USA vs. New Zealand when there isn't anyone from the USA on the boat. You can put up a big flag on the sail and keep pumping up the fans all you want, but for me personally it is just another boat race with pro crews. Of course there is nothing wrong with that, it is just that the patriotism thing doesn't make any sense.

    Now, if I were an ETNZ fan I think I would be immensely proud of what they have done since you have to think that it is Kiwis driving the program from top to bottom. But Oracle is not an American team any more than Artemis is a Swedish one or SoftBank Japanese.

    Mickey Lake
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Hantu Laut View Post
    The more pertinent question might be why NZ and Aussie sailors are so very dominant at the very top levels of the sport, and why Oracle would be incapable of fielding an all American crew
    Many of the people over on Sailing Anarchy would put it down to the fact that the Aussies sail faster boats as kids...... like Sabots, Lasers, 420s and Etchells. Whoops - that's the same sort of classes that American kids sail. Can't be that, then.

    Australian Olympians get some government funding (although it's not really a living wage, and the costs of competing on the other side of the world are high) but Ashby only got into the Olympic funding stream when he was already an adult and a champion, and Spithill never really got into it. So it can't be that, either.

    We don't work the sort of hours you do in the USA, and that must help. Then again, the USA has a vastly greater population.

    Personally I put it partly down to a less elitist sailing culture - one that is very club-based. The Laser clubs, for instance, have lots of cooperative training. No coach, no formality - just people meeting each other on the afternoons and training together, sometimes with volunteer coaching. Clubs are normally very much amateur affairs run on volunteer labour, which keeps costs down and makes sailing accessible. Outteridge's mother is a teaching assistant, I think, and he comes from a little suburb that is traditionally a miner and power station worker area. Ashby is a "good ole country boy" from a club that has probably about 15-20 boats on a good day, from 25' trailable boats down to things like Sabots. Tom comes from a middle-class area in a working-class district. Spithill comes from a very affluent club and area but I think he may often have sailed other people's boats early on and I'm not sure of his background.

    There's some great coaching at higher levels but it still gets down to people scraping a living and spending day after day bouncing around in little boats. It may be significant that we can't get anyone of Olympic standard in windsurfing these days - most of the support is there but the club level is too weak. That may indicate that much of the strength lies at the level of local clubs.

    One major thing is that in Australia, NZ and England, dinghy sailing is seen as an end in itself. Many of us regard yachts as akin to retirement homes in some ways. In the USA dinghies seem to be seen as kids boats that you are meant to grow out of.
    Last edited by Chris249; 06-20-2017 at 05:44 AM.

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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Oracle can not field an all-American crew because we are not developing young guys in the numbers we need to so that we can compete in this kind of boat. America has changed in the last couple of generations. We have gone from a place where if something broke down you figured out how to fix it, to a place where we just pick up the phone or buy a new one. I think that the sheer distance of Australia and New Zealand to the rest of the world has given them at least a generation of 'can-doers' that we no longer have.

    The US is hobby crazy, with people rushing out the door on Friday afternoons straight into the woods, the water, etc., but at least on Mobile Bay we are averaging about 1/3 the boats for regattas we did when I was a younger man. People just don't want to put the work involved into sailboat racing. Heck, when our Star fleet was active I would sail 50-60 races per year. Now I sail about 10. I don't think that's unusual in the US.

    Mickey Lake
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Right, Mickey. It also seems that being a professional sailor (as all AC sailors are now, for the most part) is a more viable and acceptable lifetime career path for non-US citizens. Just a feeling I have. No real data.
    "When I was a boy with never a crack in my heart."

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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by bamamick View Post
    ... America has changed in the last couple of generations. We have gone from a place where if something broke down you figured out how to fix it, to a place where we just pick up the phone or buy a new one. I think that the sheer distance of Australia and New Zealand to the rest of the world has given them at least a generation of 'can-doers' that we no longer have.
    ...
    Not to get political here, but IMO, this is a problem for all of the US - both personal & corporate. The "can due" attitude that really put the US on the map in the mid 20th century has been replaced exactly as you say.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post

    One major thing is that in Australia, NZ and England, dinghy sailing is seen as an end in itself. Many of us regard yachts as akin to retirement homes in some ways. In the USA dinghies seem to be seen as kids boats that you are meant to grow out of.
    Absolutely.
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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Unless you have sailed a dinghy you really don't understand sailing. I sailed Stars, J/24's, Dragons and other keel boat classes for a long, long time before I ever set foot in a Finn. After sailing the Finn in a few regattas I realized that I had done it all wrong and should have started with a Laser, then moved to a Finn before going into other sailing. In a dinghy you learn really, really fast what affect the sails and the helm and body weight have on your boat and your ability to sail fast. Nathan Outerridge and Burling and those guys instinctively know to do things in these very high performance hulls that a lot of good sailors never know.

    Heck, Bora Gulari may be the most accomplished American dinghy sailor today, and where is he in all this?

    The US Olympic sailing system is obviously not working, and until it is fixed and there is a pipeline of great young talent coming through classes that can at least relate to multihulls foiling around a course (like the 49er) I don't see things changing.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Personally I put it partly down to a less elitist sailing culture - one that is very club-based. The Laser clubs, for instance, have lots of cooperative training. No coach, no formality - just people meeting each other on the afternoons and training together, sometimes with volunteer coaching. Clubs are normally very much amateur affairs run on volunteer labour, which keeps costs down and makes sailing accessible. ...One major thing is that in Australia, NZ and England, dinghy sailing is seen as an end in itself. Many of us regard yachts as akin to retirement homes in some ways. In the USA dinghies seem to be seen as kids boats that you are meant to grow out of.
    I think you nailed it Chris. And as Banamick observes - and in my own observation after returning to NZ after 20-plus years abroad - my fellow Kiwis do seem to be very much still driven by the can-do spirit which is, to some extent, a consequence of geographic isolation and a very small population. A case in point, the Virtual Eye graphics that have made the racing so easy to follow, is a division of and was developed by Animation Research, a company still based in NZ's South Island.

    David

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    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    There was a time when Aussies and Kiwis achieved a lot more and bragged about it a lot less. I see this reversing in both countries.

    Rick

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