Page 3 of 13 FirstFirst ... 234 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 105 of 439

Thread: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Somewhere in South Central PA
    Posts
    3,367

    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Seems to me that the grinders and cyclors have nothing to do with sailing the boat, anyone with muscles could be an AC sailor. They're effectively a two man boat. I find that disappointing
    Actually there are three. The helm, wing trimmer and tactician; the latter is also a grinder/cyclor. One guy is still labeled the bowman, but I can't tell if he actually does anything with the jib at all (I assume it is co-controlled with the wing).

  2. #72
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    22,928

    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Speed kills distance every time in these boats. Difficult to tell which gate would be faster.
    Normally, yes, but if you watch the video of the penalty situation you'll see that rounding the starboard mark in the gate would have made no sense, since the finish line was perpendicular to the gate, to the left.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news...ectid=11865877
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Southern Maine
    Posts
    19,714

    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Waiting for the wind. It looks likely to be a cancellation. They need a steady 6, weather.bm, who I know to be great meteorologists are giving a steady 5.

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Oriental, NC USA
    Posts
    4,084

    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    Normally, yes, but if you watch the video of the penalty situation you'll see that rounding the starboard mark in the gate would have made no sense, since the finish line was perpendicular to the gate, to the left.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news...ectid=11865877
    Guess I don't see how choice of gate mark affects distance to finish as they both have to round the single last mark before the reach to the finish.
    Tom L

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Southern Maine
    Posts
    19,714

    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    So they cancelled today.

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    81,613

    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    The sail and foil controls are hydraulic, with reserve tanks. The grinders spin endlessly to keep pressure up in the tanks.

    Its a damn sight better than the fooking two stroke engine Alighi 5 carried to power her wenches.
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 05-31-2017 at 05:28 PM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  7. #77
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    22,928

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Tom,

    Can you explain your comments in your posts #56 and #74? They seem inconsistent .
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Whangarei, New Zealand
    Posts
    974

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Talking about leg mussels ETNZ have 2-3 Olympic gold medal winning cyclists on their team.
    Zane

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    magnolia springs, alabama u.s.a.
    Posts
    12,690

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Yep, I understood a couple of the guys were not sailors. Are they now?

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Livin' in Oz
    Posts
    53,013

    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Its a damn sight better than the fooking two stroke engine Alighi 5 carried to power her wenches.
    I've run up against a powerful wench or two in my time
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

    I'd rather look back at my life and say "I can't believe I did that" instead of being there saying "I wish I'd done that"

  11. #81
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Cummington
    Posts
    5,281

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    They probably had mussels for dinner.

  12. #82
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Oriental, NC USA
    Posts
    4,084

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    Tom,

    Can you explain your comments in your posts #56 and #74? They seem inconsistent .
    I don't see these comments as inconsistent but it is not a clearly obvious case. My opinion is based on the perceived speed and course of the two boats BEFORE any course changes are made for mark rounding. I think TNZ originally intends to maintain top speed and round the starboard mark rather than lay off and jibe to round the port mark. IMO, the first course looks like the fastest way round for them and leaves them at high speed for the next leg. The course TNZ actually took required them to lay off, jibe and round much more sharply than the other and is therefore, probably slower.

    This cannot be seen if you only look at the boats during the mark rounding. You need to look at the courses and speeds before they get so near the marks. It appears to me that TNZ decided at the last moment to attack Artemis by heading into them (hunting). The subsequent actions by TNZ appears to be a confusion as they then jibed, lost port starboard rights while gaining/maintaining inside boat rights where they had plenty of room to maneuver around the mark.

    Frankly, its a mess but these boats move so fast that normal decision making time is just not available and you have to go on instinct. That also happens many times in much slower boats in mark roundings as well and high speed only amplifies the problems. Probably not time enough to get other crew members in sync.

    Anyway, that is the way I saw it after reviewing many times at high and slow speeds. The hard part is trying to determine (guess at) the intent of the tactician. Its a guess on my part the the judges eventually saw the same thing I did. Or, maybe not. These high powered protests never ever reach a clear decision that satisfies everyone. The Aussies are still mad about the Gretel luff from decades ago.
    Last edited by Tom Lathrop; 06-01-2017 at 09:13 AM.
    Tom L

  13. #83
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    81,613

    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Why do the boats still carry jibs?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  14. #84
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    22,928

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Okay Tom, I see what you're thinking, but I can't agree that TNZ ever intended to round the starboard mark. That's what confused me about your post #56. I think the difference in the way you see it is that you think that there was an additional windward/leeward leg to complete before the finish. In that case heading for the starboard mark might have been a sensible option.

    There would be no logical reason for any boat approaching the LAST gate on the current AC course to independently choose to round the starboard mark. The finish is closer to the port mark. Once boats round the port mark it's a straight port tack reach to the finish, at least as far as the normal wind direction has been. Rounding the starboard mark after passing through the gate (passing first BETWEEN the buoys at the gate is a rule) would require a tack all the way around the starboard mark before heading to the finish.
    Last edited by rbgarr; 06-01-2017 at 11:25 AM.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  15. #85
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Southern Maine
    Posts
    19,714

    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Why do the boats still carry jibs?

    They have tested without jibs and found the jibs make the boat go faster. So they have jibs for much the same reason any boats have jibs, though I doubt they will ever get "in irons".

    There are three sizes to choose from, depending o the wind strength.

  16. #86
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Oriental, NC USA
    Posts
    4,084

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    Okay Tom, I see what you're thinking, but I can't agree that TNZ ever intended to round the starboard mark. That's what confused me about your post #56. I think the difference in the way you see it is that you think that there was an additional windward/leeward leg to complete before the finish. In that case heading for the starboard mark might have been a sensible option.

    There would be no logical reason for any boat approaching the LAST gate on the current AC course to independently choose to round the starboard mark. The finish is closer to the port mark. Once boats round the port mark it's a straight port tack reach to the finish, at least as far as the normal wind direction has been. Rounding the starboard mark after passing through the gate (passing first BETWEEN the buoys at the gate is a rule) would require a tack all the way around the starboard mark before heading to the finish.
    Yes, after seeing the true course layout for the first time, it apparent that you are completely correct. That still leaves the actions of TMZ as a puzzle for me though.
    Tom L

  17. #87
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    magnolia springs, alabama u.s.a.
    Posts
    12,690

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    I will say it againagainagain.....I am very confused by the judges decision to say that they had made a mistake. If you stick to your guns and say it was a port/starboard situation then you are exactly correct, because at the least EnZed says they made us alter course, and the video evidence makes it looks as if New Zealand could have t-boned Sweden, at least to me, and certainly in real time it looked like that. If the debate was whether or not Sweden gave room to a port tack Burling then of course they did and that's not even debatable. The only was Sweden fouled anyone was if you only looked at the port/starboard situation.

    These boys are going to have to get used to this kind of thing, because the boats are only going to get faster and not slower.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  18. #88
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,204

    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Why do the boats still carry jibs?
    I believe it's because it helps them tack. Maneuverability tends to be an issue with cats, although the hulls of these boats spend so little time in the water, they may find they can do away with the jibs someday.

  19. #89
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Oriental, NC USA
    Posts
    4,084

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by bamamick View Post
    I will say it againagainagain.....I am very confused by the judges decision to say that they had made a mistake. If you stick to your guns and say it was a port/starboard situation then you are exactly correct, because at the least EnZed says they made us alter course, and the video evidence makes it looks as if New Zealand could have t-boned Sweden, at least to me, and certainly in real time it looked like that. If the debate was whether or not Sweden gave room to a port tack Burling then of course they did and that's not even debatable. The only was Sweden fouled anyone was if you only looked at the port/starboard situation.

    Well Mick, here are the rules this year: https://www.americascup.com/en/news/...RULES-101.html

    Compared to the rules we have sailed under for a long time, these are so simplified that they really don't cover

    These boys are going to have to get used to this kind of thing, because the boats are only going to get faster and not slower.

    Mickey Lake
    These rules are extremely simplified from the ones we have sailed with for many years.

    https://www.americascup.com/en/news/...RULES-101.html

    Lots of limitations on right of way have been eliminated.
    Tom L

  20. #90
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Southern Maine
    Posts
    19,714

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    I wonder if Dean Barker threw that race, he is being funded by Ellison, he had plenty of room to cover Spithill.

    Camas had less room, but I would still have covered Ainslie. They are both really good sailors though, so what do I know?

  21. #91
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    magnolia springs, alabama u.s.a.
    Posts
    12,690

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    It is already being talked about how Japan is involved almost completely at the behest of Ellison, so who knows what is going on there?

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  22. #92
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    12,036

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Funny I've seen nothing at all on this race in the Australian media. Used to be big news, but now it's invisible.

  23. #93
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1,451

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Oh come on Phil, that can't be true - having an AC on foiling cats will get enormous publicity and be a huge boost for the sport, leading to every harbour in every land being full of kids screeching along at 30 knots under sail. The PR hacks and those who hoped to make money from the new style of AC promised us it would be so, and the sailing journalists lapped it up - surely they cannot all be wrong.

    Oh whoops, it looks like those who hyped it up were completely wrong. Yet again. It's gone very quiet here, despite Aussies skippering 3 of the 6 boats and being equal first.

    When will the sailing world learn to stop being so gullible about those who promise us that high-tech boats will be good for sailing and its profile? The weird thing is that the obsession with promoting the hyper-performance boats has been swallowed even by the specialist sailing media. The ORC worlds, for the standard sort of Beneteau/X Yacht/Farr 40/TP52 boat, have had to turn away entries for about the fourth year in a row, because they can't fit more than 55 boats on the startline for each class. It looks like a major success story for our sport, and yet it's being almost ignored. When the events that people actually do are ignored in favour of ones with dwindling fleets and no widespread support, it's no wonder the sport is shrinking. Gaaaah!

  24. #94
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,118

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    But the there is the UFO project, a amall foiler that can be sailed off a beach designed to hit the Laser price point. Foiling for the rest of us.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  25. #95
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    22,204

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    But the there is the UFO project, a amall foiler that can be sailed off a beach designed to hit the Laser price point. Foiling for the rest of us.
    I do a lot of my sailing on Lake Union, which has a 7 knot speed limit. A foiling moth has already been ticketed (he was in the ship canal doing about 20 knots.)

  26. #96
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Madison Wisconsin
    Posts
    8,539

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Personally, I find the boats and their performance to be amazing, but the racing to be deathly boring. I still have VHS tapes of almost all the televised LV and cup races going all the way back to Freemantle. I miss the tactical decisions, the sail handling, tacking duels and other stuff that could once make a two hour long race exciting from start to finish. Not that they all were, but there were plenty of them that were drastically more interesting to watch than what I'm seeing these days. YMMV

  27. #97
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1,451

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    But the there is the UFO project, a amall foiler that can be sailed off a beach designed to hit the Laser price point. Foiling for the rest of us.
    Oh yeah, and lots of people will love it, which would be great. But it still seems that the angle that high-performance craft are the future is just as wrong today as it always has been. It seems that they will always just be a niche interest and should be treated as such, rather than being seen as the centre of promotion and the apex of the sport.

    It's not that the UFO is not a great craft; more that it IMNSHO it will sit in a niche like Formula Windsurfers, fast cats or perhaps singlehanded skiffs. The foiling promotion does remind me of the claims in the '90s that everyone was going to get into skiffs, and apart from the 29er being fairly strong, it hasn't happened. You know how many times people have run down the high-performance rabbit hole since the canoe got into it in the 1880s, and arguably the last couple of decades, with frenzied promotion of skiffs, water ballasted boats, canters, multis, foilers etc has been the worst time of all for over-hyping of developments.

    Will we see fleets of UFOs around? I have no idea, but we do know that just about every other time people have run around saying "this new type of superfast sailing is the future of the sport" they have been proven wrong. People keep on saying that kids want to sail foilers, but even in Sydney, the world stronghold of foiling, after over a decade of foiling there were just 37 boats at the state titles of the two foiling classes - about as many as there were before foils. Nationally the oldest foiling class has little growth, with just 2 active boats in our second-biggest state. So even if the Wazp and UFO are 10 times as popular as each of those classes, which would be great, they are going to be just a couple of mid-range classes rather than "the future of the sport".

    With the sport in trouble in some areas it could be great if just for once, modern sailing started to promote the types that actually WORK, in terms of getting boats and bums on the water. Hyping the next big thing will probably fail just as it did with canters, assymetric cats, skiffs, etc.
    Last edited by Chris249; 06-02-2017 at 05:46 AM.

  28. #98
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    12,036

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    I'm not sure that having more people sailing is a good thing.

  29. #99
    Join Date
    Jan 2000
    Location
    Cushing, Maine
    Posts
    3,118

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Understand Chris's position. Two stories: back in '49 a couple of canoe and iceboat sailors named Al and Cort stuck a canoe rig on a paddle board and came up with the Sailfish, a new first, a capsize and sail away sailboat. Then at the America's teacup regatta in 1970 a funny boat from the west coast showed up called the windsurfer, a guy named Hobie brought along his new centerboard/ daggerboard less catamaran, and Bruce Kirby had Hans Fogh sailing the TGIF. Those craft actually did put more butts in boats. The boards show the real problem ( and the once simple Opti) show what happens if one pays attention only to racing or the high performance end. Meanwhile Sunfish sales plug along with chief competition being older Sunfish. They don't get used up.The UFO is in that tradition, not promoting fancy materials or rigs, not trying to break speed records, but working against the trend to make high tech unobtainable.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  30. #100
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    magnolia springs, alabama u.s.a.
    Posts
    12,690

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Hold a minute, fellas. The drawback of the America's Cup has ALWAYS been boring races. The boat that won the start won 99% of those races, which is certainly not the case now. Sure, if you enjoy watching people tack then it was great fun, but breaking through was almost impossible. There are many more opportunities for sailing through your opponent in this racing.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  31. #101
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    81,613

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    The idea that the publicity that the Americas Cup is getting is somehow bad for sailing (for whatever reason) is ridiculous. Note: I'm not saying its good for sailing either. Sailing is and has been a niche sport for some time and other than those who have access to public waterfront and dedicated youth sailing programs in boats provided through nominal membership fees, it always has been and always will be an expensive sport to play in, no matter the level of participation.

    Its also a sport, as far as racing goes, that unless one gets into it as a young person, its unlikely they will become participants in sail boat racing when they become older. Compare this to golf, amateur and club motorsports, running, cycling, shooting sports, etc. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  32. #102
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    magnolia springs, alabama u.s.a.
    Posts
    12,690

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    I gave my kid in Boston a membership in the community sailing center for her birthday. That works. The one in Milwaukee works. The one in St. Pete works. Lots of people would love to go sailing if only they knew how to get started. That's the hard part, that and trying to let folks know that you do not have to be rich to be a sailor. The guy who wins the Finn gold medal is one of the most honored athletes in our sport, yet the best Finn in the world costs a fraction what most of the guys I work with spend on bass boats.

    As a matter of fact, sailing is one of the most democratic sports in the world. Do you play golf? Would you like to play in the Masters? How 'bout tennis? Want to participate in Wimbledon? Try doing that one time. On the other hand, I have sailed against the best Star sailors in the world many times, and am only limited by my ability to pay my way into the game.

    But is it a good sport for television? I think that this America's Cup is or could be, but it has to be pretty much what they are doing now and not what I will be doing this weekend. It has to be fast with an element of danger because that's what the people like these days. Gadgets and sporty suits and technical discussion that's impressive because laymen won't understand it. That's all appealing to people, apparently. Fremantle '87 was the apex of sailboat match racing to me and will never be topped, but as far as making this stuff accessible and interesting for the general public I think they are on the right track.

    I have been driving racing sailboats almost my whole life. I have sailed against the best in North America in Finns and Stars and sailed lots of other boats in different races, and I KNOW I couldn't drive one of these boats from here to the corner store and more than I could drive an F1 car up there, but I can relate, and apparently being able to relate is all I need to be very interested in this racing.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  33. #103
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    81,613

    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    What are the community and youth sailing programs like in Nashville, Cincinnatti, Denver, Lincoln?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  34. #104
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Southern Maine
    Posts
    19,714

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton


  35. #105
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    magnolia springs, alabama u.s.a.
    Posts
    12,690

    Default Re: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

    Yeah, when I was visiting my daughter in Denver their community sailing center had flyers and brochures up all over the downtown area. I think they are really making an effort.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •