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Thread: America's cup / Louis Vuitton

  1. #36
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    The last leg is always a bore but it's for the onshore, paying spectators. If that 'catch-up' by Oracle of the ETNZ boat in yesterday's race had been just at the finish it would have been wild.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  2. #37
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Sorry, that's not historically correct. The AC has almost never been about cutting edge design, and most people knew it until they started to believe press releases. The AC has almost always been decades behind the leading edge.

    Look at the first British challengers - they were basically cruiser/racers. Galatea was a live-aboard home for the owners- check out the pics of the saloon. The next major phase came with the L X SA rating boats - but they were year behind smaller boats in design evolution. Compare say Valkyrie II with a contemporary small boat built to the same rule like Maharanee. The AC boat is about four generations behind in hull shape, in Rater terms. Look at this One Rater from the same year as Valkyrie - there is no doubt that the AC boat is years behind in development, and the commentators of earlier eras recognised that fact. Fin keels with separate rudders were in offshore racers in the 1940s (Van de Stadt's Zeevalk) and finally made it into the AC in 1968 or whenever Intrepid was launched. By that time the leading edge in big boat design was either something like Windward Passage or the wing-masted tri Pen Duick, which both made Intrepid look what it was - a refined example of a very constrained design.

    Take a look at the rigs - bermudan rigs were first used in international small-yacht racing in 1895. It took until 1930 for the bermudan rig to make it to the AC! Carbon fibre spars were used in an offshore maxi in 1978. They didn't get into the AC until about 1991. Stars, Renjollen and other classes had bendy rigs from about 1930 - AC boats got them abut 1967. Single headsails were used in small yachts from the 1850s, but didn't make it to the AC boats until about 1935. Wing masts were used in offshore boats from about 1968; they made it to the AC in 1989, I think. Plastic sails were used in experiments in about 1952, made it into the AC about 1968. Assymetric spinnakers of the modern type were invented in 1985-ish, made it into the AC about 2000 or later if I recall correctly. Wingsails were used in Int Canoes about 1955, made it into the AC about 1990.

    Foam sandwich was used in dinghies from the 1950s - it didn't get into the AC until 1987. Carbon was used in a Parker Contender hull in about 1972, was common in offshore boats by the late '80s, made it into the AC a few years later.

    Catamarans made it into racing in the 1860s/1870s, and didn't get into the AC until the '80s. Tris were being raced by about 1947-1952 or so (if I recall Tchetchet's entry into BIRW) and made it into the AC about 2012. Foils came into modern sailing with transatlantic shorthanded boats in 1978, into inshore racing with Moths about 2003, and into the AC in about 2014.

    The list of developments in which the AC has lagged behind small boats and offshore racers by decades goes on and on and on. It used to be a great place to refine big-boat equipment that was used by many other sailors - now it's developed itself into a tiny corner.
    .

    Vigilant had to beat Colonia, Pilgrim, and Jubilee to defend in 1893.

    Jubilee:



    Pilgrim:



    Mind you, the first really effective fin keel was on Dilemma, in 1891.


  3. #38
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Yes, the less successful US boats were pretty radical, but doesn't that illustration show that the AC boats followed the lead set by the smaller Dilemma? In terms of keel aspect ratio and the number of headsails, the One and Half Raters (and were the 21 footers the rough US equivalent?) were still well ahead of the AC boats. Of course by 1895, we had boats like the completely unballasted centreboard One Raters or Unorna, which had a keel more like an IACC boat. It's interesting, though, to ponder whether 1893 was perhaps the closest that the AC ever got to being really leading edge for a century or so.

    By the way, it all gets down to definitions but Payne's late 1880s designs like Lady Nan and Humming Bird were very successful fin keelers.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Lady Nan is sort of pushing the definition, but it sort of qualifies.

    The switch to the Universal Rule and later the International Rule was intended to develop a healthier type. The fragile boats of 1901 inspired unfavorable comparisons to the fishing schooners, and led to the Lipton Cup races Bluenose dominated. In most of the 20th century, America's Cup boat rules were intended to reign in innovation.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    You can watch it on here. Just wait for the feed to come up. Don't click on anything.
    http://live.robinwidget.org/streamvi...m-1845140.html
    Last edited by Hwyl; 05-29-2017 at 02:45 PM.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Boy that NZ SWE race was a doozy.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    Boy that NZ SWE race was a doozy.
    Yes. Oops beginning and fouled finish... Fantastic! sailboat race in between!! Good stuff!

  8. #43
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    The last leg is always a bore but it's for the onshore, paying spectators. If that 'catch-up' by Oracle of the ETNZ boat in yesterday's race had been just at the finish it would have been wild.
    Well, possibly not "always" (NZL/SWE).

  9. #44
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    So let me ask a question: are these boats going too fast for conventional sailing rules to apply? What Barker did to Ainslie is something I have done or had done to me many hundreds of times, but to come screaming up behind someone at thirty knots and then drop to five all at once severely limits what the weather boat can do and could very well have gotten someone killed. Killed. Same thing goes for when they are 'hunting' at crossings or at roundings.

    In the middle race today New Zealand claimed Sweden made them alter course when all saw that Sweden gave plenty of ground for them to round inside of them. But in traditional match racing who is to say New Zealand doesn't force Outteridge away from the mark, drive him all the way to the boundary and tack inside of him to the finish line? Well, Sweden didn't think they'd do that but New Zealand could have t-boned Artemis mid ships and could you imagine the carnage? Especially for the Swedes after already losing Bart.

    I would just hate for someone to get really, really hurt doing this. It is just racing sailboats, for goodness' sakes.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  10. #45
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by bamamick View Post
    So let me ask a question: are these boats going too fast for conventional sailing rules to apply? What Barker did to Ainslie is something I have done or had done to me many hundreds of times, but to come screaming up behind someone at thirty knots and then drop to five all at once severely limits what the weather boat can do and could very well have gotten someone killed. Killed. Same thing goes for when they are 'hunting' at crossings or at roundings.

    In the middle race today New Zealand claimed Sweden made them alter course when all saw that Sweden gave plenty of ground for them to round inside of them. But in traditional match racing who is to say New Zealand doesn't force Outteridge away from the mark, drive him all the way to the boundary and tack inside of him to the finish line? Well, Sweden didn't think they'd do that but New Zealand could have t-boned Artemis mid ships and could you imagine the carnage? Especially for the Swedes after already losing Bart.

    I would just hate for someone to get really, really hurt doing this. It is just racing sailboats, for goodness' sakes.

    Mickey Lake
    Ainslie said his boat slipped sideways just before the collision, which it would have done because of rising up on its foils and having less lateral resistance. That's another factor to consider. These boats just don't act like the old ones. Also, there's been one death in training already, Andrew Simpson. Maybe the rules need some revision.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by bamamick View Post
    So let me ask a question: are these boats going too fast for conventional sailing rules to apply? What Barker did to Ainslie is something I have done or had done to me many hundreds of times, but to come screaming up behind someone at thirty knots and then drop to five all at once severely limits what the weather boat can do and could very well have gotten someone killed. Killed. Same thing goes for when they are 'hunting' at crossings or at roundings.

    In the middle race today New Zealand claimed Sweden made them alter course when all saw that Sweden gave plenty of ground for them to round inside of them. But in traditional match racing who is to say New Zealand doesn't force Outteridge away from the mark, drive him all the way to the boundary and tack inside of him to the finish line? Well, Sweden didn't think they'd do that but New Zealand could have t-boned Artemis mid ships and could you imagine the carnage? Especially for the Swedes after already losing Bart.

    I would just hate for someone to get really, really hurt doing this. It is just racing sailboats, for goodness' sakes.

    Mickey Lake
    Mick,

    I totally agree that the old rules simply don't serve these boats well. Its clear the the judges have adapted some of our normal rules to their liking in an attempt to fit the super speedy boats.

    On the other hand, I think the last mark with Sweden and NZ was judged wrongly. The devil is in the details and I doubt that any reasonable conclusion can be reached from a discussion on the internet. The problem I have is that, some new rulings must be made to make sense of what happened. I doubt we have access to the interpretation of "rules" that were used to judge the Swedes at fault. I also doubt that the Kiwis really expected to win their protest and were surprised by the decision that gave them the win.
    Tom L

  12. #47
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    The umpire says it was judged wrongly too. They're not going to change it though.

    https://www.americascup.com/en/news/...-decision.html

  13. #48
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Hwyl View Post
    The umpire says it was judged wrongly too. They're not going to change it though.

    https://www.americascup.com/en/news/...-decision.html
    What this says to me is that it is not possible to make realistic and fair judge decisions from a nearby boat on the water. Works fine for boats going less than 8 or 9 knots but is just not workable at 35 knots and closing speeds of over 60 knots. Looking at the other (video) evidence in real time would have produced a more fair and just decision. Somehow, this will need to be fixed in the future with so much at stake.
    Tom L

  14. #49
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    On the other hand, it's a fact of the game that you can't expect the umpires or protest committees to get every decision right, therefore you always have the option of not pushing the rules and judge's decisions so hard. There are just as many close judgement calls in conventional protest situations in slow boats too, and it's the sailors' choice as to whether they take those risks.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Outteridge should have had the option of finishing ahead and then going to a committee, or being able to ask for redress right now. The system they have now is seriously flawed in this way.

    Hard to believe the old fashioned way is better than what they have available to these guys.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  16. #51
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by bamamick View Post
    Outteridge should have had the option of finishing ahead and then going to a committee, or being able to ask for redress right now. The system they have now is seriously flawed in this way.

    Hard to believe the old fashioned way is better than what they have available to these guys.

    Mickey Lake
    Absolutely,

    With a simple TVR and a remote controller anyone was able to look at the event in fast and slow motion and arrive at the proper decision quicker and more accurately from far better viewpoints than the judges had. Everything is in place except the decision to do it in real time as soon as they want to do it. Locally, we have been using cell phone GPS to track boats on the race course. While its not so far permitted in the rule book, there is a ton of clear evidence that is available to a protest committee without relying on unreliable evidence from the parties to the protest. .
    Tom L

  17. #52
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Sweden (AKA Oracle B) go against NZ again today. I'll be glued to the screen.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    If that ETNZ/ARTEMIS race had finished at the last gate it would have been just as exciting as the confusion of including the last leg. I believe Artemis would have won by crossing the gate/finish line first.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11865877


    Last edited by rbgarr; 05-30-2017 at 10:50 AM.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  19. #54
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Some interesting analysis here regarding software simulations and grinding developments: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news...ectid=11866121
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  20. #55
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    Great article, Dave, thanks.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Looking at the course of TNZ approaching the gate, it looks like NZ intended to round the starboard gate which appears to be the fastest way round for them. Instead, they bore off on Artemis for some reason. We can only guess at the reason they tried to round inside Artemis but the result was not good. I really dislike the "hunting " tactic which was illegal under old rules but now seems to be acceptable and has been used many times when port and starboard meet in the AC. Rounding teh starboard gate would not only have been faster for TNZ but would have gained them a split. Not a proud day for NZ IMO.
    Last edited by Tom Lathrop; 05-30-2017 at 01:24 PM.
    Tom L

  22. #57
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Looking at the course of TNZ approaching the gate, it looks like NZ intended to round the starboard gate which appears to be the fastest way round for them. Instead, they bore off on Artemis for some reason. We can only guess at the reason they tried to round inside Artemis but the result was not good. I really dislike the "hunting " tactic which was illegal under old rules but now seems to be acceptable and has been used many times when port and starboard meet in the AC. Rounding teh starboard gate would not only have been faster for TNZ but would have gained them a split. Not a proud day for NZ IMO.
    It was always hard to tell if someone was hunting, but it seems with the new technology that should be less of a problem than in the past. It really shouldn't be allowed.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    The Brits seem to have finally found their form. They sailed an almost perfect race. I loved that start.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    I missed today's races by being in meetings all day. Great to see Sir Ben have a good day after the disaster of the last two. Funny thing about the Swedish boat. As they said yesterday these guys either win or finish last with nothing in-between. Miserable day for the Swedes.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  25. #60
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Find it interesting but not surprising that there is only one national team in the event. Go Frank.
    Ben Fuller
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  26. #61
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    On the British sailing team, out of a bench of 15, there's one Spaniard and two Kiwis. I'm not sure the foreigners have sailed yet. So a predominately British team.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Looking at the course of TNZ approaching the gate, it looks like NZ intended to round the starboard gate.... Rounding teh starboard gate would not only have been faster for TNZ but would have gained them a split. Not a proud day for NZ IMO.
    The gate was the last on the course before the finish (off to port of the gate). Rounding the port buoy at the gate was the quickest route to the finish.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  28. #63
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by bamamick View Post
    I missed today's races by being in meetings all day. Great to see Sir Ben have a good day after the disaster of the last two. Funny thing about the Swedish boat. As they said yesterday these guys either win or finish last with nothing in-between. Miserable day for the Swedes.

    Mickey Lake
    In this race, the Swedes have only their decision making to blame. Well, they could have sailed a bit faster. Their penalty was well earned.
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  29. #64
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Been digging around and can't find an answer. The "grinders" seem to never stop? Are they trimming or performing some other function.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  30. #65
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    The gate was the last on the course before the finish (off to port of the gate). Rounding the port buoy at the gate was the quickest route to the finish.
    Speed kills distance every time in these boats. Difficult to tell which gate would be faster.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    Been digging around and can't find an answer. The "grinders" seem to never stop? Are they trimming or performing some other function.
    The sail and foil controls are hydraulic, with reserve tanks. The grinders spin endlessly to keep pressure up in the tanks.

    Yet another way to make the AC less accessible and relevant to the sailing that 99.999999% of people do. It was never thus.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    The sail and foil controls are hydraulic, with reserve tanks. The grinders spin endlessly to keep pressure up in the tanks.

    Yet another way to make the AC less accessible and relevant to the sailing that 99.999999% of people do. It was never thus.
    Seems to me that the grinders and cyclors have nothing to do with sailing the boat, anyone with muscles could be an AC sailor. They're effectively a two man boat. I find that disappointing

  33. #68
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    The sail and foil controls are hydraulic, with reserve tanks. The grinders spin endlessly to keep pressure up in the tanks.

    Yet another way to make the AC less accessible and relevant to the sailing that 99.999999% of people do. It was never thus.
    I finally figured that out myself. They're not grinding winches, they're pumping tanks up full of pressure. I think the tactitcian is the guy controlling all the foils.
    It's funny to watch the kiwi boat guys peddling like mad. I expect to see a little propeller spinning at the end of the foils! Right now it looks like it'll be the kiwis against the U.S. again. If the kiwis win, you'll see everyone peddling the next time around.
    I've been taping the races so I can blow past all the nonsense and commercials.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    The commentators today said they thought Oracle would fit pedals before the actual AC, but the New Zealanders have been working on their leg muscles.
    Last edited by Hwyl; 05-30-2017 at 08:26 PM.

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    Default Re: America's cup / Loluis Vuitton

    Chris 249 - yes, I take your point it may not have much direct relevance to "average" sailing - and personally I'd be terrified to attempt even crossing the trampoline during a tack on one of these beasts - but I still love watching it! They are trting to appeal to an audience that is wider than the usual, rather small audience for yacht racing, and I think succeeding much better than I expected.

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