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Thread: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

  1. #71
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    A friend helped me see the sail yesterday. There is a twist in the mast sleeve that doesn't look nice.
    Just lashed the a bamboo boom to the masts and tried holding the mast up and the boom down.



    Maybe I'll try a smaller and shorter sail another time but this will have to do for the first test.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    It looks like the port side got a different vertical tension than the starboard side at the luff attachment. I dunno if you taped, sewed or both, but it might not be too hard to redo if you otherwise like how the sail tests out. You can detach, then first tack at the half, quarter, and eighth points for instance... to contain the errors into smaller areas

    I used to sew tents, and an issue is similarly to not allow different tensions on the 2 layers to creep the alignment on a long seam. Ripstop nylon went pretty easy at full throttle, but more stretchy material was a constant fuss to prevent skew of the layers.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    It looks like the port side got a different vertical tension than the starboard side at the luff attachment. I dunno if you taped, sewed or both, but it might not be too hard to redo if you otherwise like how the sail tests out. You can detach, then first tack at the half, quarter, and eighth points for instance... to contain the errors into smaller areas

    I used to sew tents, and an issue is similarly to not allow different tensions on the 2 layers to creep the alignment on a long seam. Ripstop nylon went pretty easy at full throttle, but more stretchy material was a constant fuss to prevent skew of the layers.
    Creeping is exactly what happened here.
    I glued the sleeve to portside with UHU Stick and then we sewed the whole thing together first (2 layers and more on the track), finished sewing together the whole thing with only a line to help.
    I should have glued the sleeve on starboard on a flat surface before sewing to get a nice, flat pocket.
    Also didn't see it shut on top...
    I will open the seam again and try to glue it before sewing....also adding a cap (now I just have put on velcro with tape on both sides of the sleeve and close it with one velcro ribbon.)
    The sleeve is also too wide at the top... doesn't look nice.
    I'll upload a pic of that mess in a second...

    The broadseaming is only done with tape. We tried different needles but the double-sided tape is too sticks to see through. I guess taping will be enough.. can't get it off anyways without tearing up the Tyvec. That's why I don't want to tape the sleeve... can't be taken apart again.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy



    It might work for that little sailing I am doing but I guess I can do better (on the next sail).
    Fortunately Tyvek is really cheap.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    A traditional way of tackling this in sewing is to make alignment marks in chalk which later washes off. Your material may need crayon perhaps in an off-white color. With the sleeve open and flat with inside facing up, you could make lines perpendicular to the edge extending to the target spot where the sleeve edge is supposed to attach.

    I guess the loose edge needs to be bunched up a bit if you made the luff convex. If you were to sew the 2 layers without glue or tape, you could take advantage of the natural tendency of a sewing machine to induce creep. The bottom layer is bunched by the traction-motion device and the top layer is stretched by resistance of the press-down device. Unfortunately I think this requires the loose edge to be the lower (bunching) layer, which is hard for visibility.

    Another odd observation... you might want to carry along a picture of how your hull parts fit into your vehicle. Someone else may have to do it if you were injured or whatever and do it wrong with damage. Or what I did yesterday, which was got so physically and mentally exhausted on a overpowering wind day (predicted weak) that I couldn't remember or figure the intricate steps to pack an unforgiving cluster of oversize parts.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I guess I can just tape it with normal Tesa before sewing. Needles do easily sew through Tesa. That's how I did my Pram's sail. You always have the Tesla on the sail then though.

    I don't need that. My sailing grounds are "Alte Donau".
    If anything like that happens I just call some friends, family or stash the boat at any of the boat renters/yacht clubs/rowing clubs there.
    I am about the only one wearing a pfd here (apart from the children at the sailing school and my children which always wear one.)
    I plan on sailing in the Danube some day...then I'll need some flotation retrofit.

    The sail again...somehow I was certain that 60sqf would be 5,8mē... it's more like 5,574mē.
    Or maybe it was just that I thought I would need a bigger sail so here I am with 5,9mē + the sleeve.
    My boom sits rather deep now and is 250cm long.
    I guess it would have been easier to go with the original drawing and just use the given mast position...
    Now I did a (temporary) variable maststep and need some solution to mount the temporary mastpartner to the gunwales.
    Something that can easily be opened without tools.
    The ratchet strap works fine to secure the mast with the mastpartner.
    I have glued in a 12mm MDO board to mount everything on and can take out the maststep contraption anytime to replace it with one or more fixed positions. Just want to keep my options open at that point in case I do another sail.

    The parts are coming together slowly. I just coated my foils with epoxy, there will be a line through the holes just like on the GIS.
    Just need to sand them with 800grid one time and maybe coat them a second time...or rather don't and just go sailing.
    I might need to redo the ruder mount someday with bigger hinges or just some eye screws. Hope it doesn't break at the first sail.

    Just need to finish the boom now and hopefully get on the water on Saturday when the weather allows...got really cold this week.



  7. #77
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I redid that mastpartner. Doesn't look nice but it works. I can place and rake the mast now in every position.

    The foils are wet sanded. Just need to add the cord on the top and bungee to the daggerboard case and rudder, finish the boom and redo the mastsleeve.

    Unfortunately my wife is working the weekend so maybe Monday afternoon or Tuesday morning...




  8. #78
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Did the shockcords today, the daggerboard and rudder are now finished.
    Had the mast and sail in today and found that I need one more piece of wood for bracing. This will be bolted through with two more joining bolts. The forward frame was just too weak and the parts moved a bit because these frames are smaller than the other two. That's fixed now.
    One last thing to do is finding a quick way to clamp the most to the mastpartner. The ratchet belt isn't going to work for changing the position quickly.
    Still some work to do on the rigging.


    Just some weeks left for sailing here so I am looking for a new building challenge already. My idea is to do the same boat again with different materials.
    On the drawing you see the stern part with one bracing added.
    I plan on doing the lower hull panels from plywood (maybe 9mm phenol coated.) and bonding it with CNC cut plywood stringers.
    The upper part should be canvas. I actually plan to go all around with the canvas, the plywood floor is needed to sit on and to guarantee a continuous bottom curve. Otherwise the canvas would have an edge across at the beam.
    -I want to reduce the beam by 10cm, only by changing the upper two panels.
    -find out if I can lower the sheerline
    -The connecting frames should be precut and the seals in a recessed cove so that they are never exposed when handling the parts.
    -find a better solution for the maststep/partner.
    -do some more sails.
    (-build my own CNC so that I don't need to go to "Happylab" for everything)

    One of the objectives is to try to get it done without glassing anything.
    Such a boat kit could fit in a very small package.

    Don't know if I will really try this winter but just thinking about it is fun.




  9. #79
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Planning and dreaming is half the fun.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by johngsandusky View Post
    Planning and dreaming is half the fun.
    It is.


    Now I need one last critical piece. Some kind of clamp that Kan also tilt to allow for rake. I want to clamp to the two plywood beams from above and below with something that can be opened and closed quickly.
    Any ideas?


  11. #81
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I have used two adjustable mast thwarts:
    1. Aluminum pipe with a sleeve for mast partners. Lashed in place with tie down straps. Adjustable, but not quickly, nor underway.
    2. Two pieces of wood, for and aft sandwiching the seat/thwart, a hole through for partners. Held in place by jorgensen clamps. More adjustable, but not like a Star mast.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I guess I am thinking too complicated.
    Came up with a swivel design (2 actually) but I guess I won't rake forward and a maximum of 10-12° aft. A curved, mast facing plate will do when I stick Neopren to it. Or a hinge on top.
    The mast isn't hollow anyways, filled it with wood to step it and to get more strength (it got a sticker on it saying "boom above that line...so I figured I need to strengthen it if my boom goes below and I don't want the mastpartner to snap it.).


  13. #83
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Done.
    I might add two HDPE (or wood) part that's snug against the mast and curved against my clamps. That would follow the rake perfectly.

    Just trying the WB picture upload feature now. The pictures are smaller though, so that they compress better.
    IMG_20170911_132527.jpg
    IMG_20170911_132541.jpg

    [edit] the compression is awfull...I might stay with imagebam.com
    Resizing before uploading might work too...but that doesn't work that great on phones.
    Last edited by heavyweather; 09-11-2017 at 07:18 AM.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    mast01.jpg

    That should distribute the clamping load pretty good.
    The image shows -12°/0°/12° rake...probably don't need that much rake ever (would I ever need forward rake?).
    How much rake does usually make sense?

  15. #85
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Another solution just came to my mind...not that nice but would help.
    If I round the edges of my clamping plates and cut a slit where the lever is, I could slide the upper plate forward or aft and could always have all 4 contact the mast...
    I guess I will go with the first idea.. I am a little afraid of snapping the mast when I present a solid edge to it...even a padded edge. The long sleeve would feather out on the upper part.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    On some racing boats, where the mast goes through at deck level, there are "T" shaped shims, that you can put in front or behind the mast to mve the rake.

    This is the way Optimists move their mast step (about $40 US and not very effective).

    https://www.google.com/search?q=opti...BFI4c6SlrEx0M:

  17. #87
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I have seen the shims, someone on FB showed me.
    I only know these maststeps from my Optimist sailing days and then only one out of 10 had such fancy hardware.
    Still like the clear finished all wooden boats.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyweather View Post
    (would I ever need forward rake?).
    It can serve as a temporary brute force way to reduce excess weather helm, if you are already in the forwardmost step. Now it looks like 80% of your boom is behind the daggerboard. Not sure how your sail scales to that, but it could promote wx helm. I guess you already calculated CE vs CLR tho. Your latest pictures are beautifully sharp.
    Last edited by rudderless; 09-11-2017 at 02:18 PM.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I guess the sharpness is only there when viewed on the forum. My other pictures are all just scaled down and a click will direct you to the original.

    My boom is ~40cm too long still you can see that in the picture with the sail above.
    The sail ends approximately at the transom. 240cm foot.

  20. #90
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Finally in the water.
    It was a beautiful day...until 14h.
    That's exactly when the sun went away, I put the boat in the trunk and it started raining.
    It stopped raining for some time when I started to carry the boat to the water. You can always take two parts (what I did when I took the boat back to the car) but I just made 6 trips to get it down to the water. 15min later I assembled the boat which took 8min without rushing anything. Used quite some Cable ties on the rig.
    Sailed around a little, the wind was bad, no direction and I was the only one on the water. The other one just went in when it started to rain lightly.
    The boat is almost watertight. Some drops came from one screw hole and some from the cockpit seam. Really only drops.
    I will change the sealing design non the less.
    The sail needs battens or I might cut some of the leech away....or just do a second, smaller sail.

    Then the rudder broke.



    Didn't think it would last long but I also got no oars so I just sailed back to shore and called it a day.
    There are also more ways to put the boat in the car.
    The two big parts nest very good actually...the 3rd does also pretty good. The stern has all the Mast hardware installed so it doesn't fit that well...but it's small.


    Now I am going to install one thing like this wooden blocks connection. Maybe with the wedge inside the boat so that the transom is flat.
    http://www.simplicityboats.com/pintgudgalt.html

    The downhaul needs some work.
    Last edited by heavyweather; 09-13-2017 at 05:48 PM.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Wow, that's so exciting! Worth it to get in some cold sails to set your direction over the winter. Don't let yourself become rudderless. I really envy your faster setup and takedown time. Reverso has just released kind of a weird video that at least shows how they load their 4 parts in the vehicle.

    In contrast, my day in the inflatable world was the usual... perfect wind goes bad by the time my long setup is done. In this case some metal parts had fused together proving not to be stainless. And one chamber leaked air... it looks like stabbed by a screwdriver. Increasing sketchy vagrants using park facilities may have included one establishing his territory when my eyes were averted. I don't think I offended, like complaining about their illegal pack of loose killer dogs.

    P.S. I noticed sometimes the PT 11 videos show a sole rider sitting unusually forward (center actually). I think normal sailboats favor rear seating due to their wide stern, but the nested ones have a tapered stern without the usual rear buoyancy.
    Last edited by rudderless; 09-14-2017 at 12:49 AM.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Congrats on the launch.
    Looking forward to hear how she performs once all the niggles and fine-tuning are sorted out.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I call that a good day, congratulations.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Will that sail block your vision on a busy summer day? Maybe consider the kind with an elevated clew and sprit boom with all kinds of advantages like no boom vang needed for shaping: http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/04/...prit/index.cfm . The boom can be curved. The sail can be made from a used jib from ebay or a sew-it-yourself kit including dacron like http://www.sailrite.com/Bolger-Carto...n-Mainsail-Kit

  25. #95
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Thank you John.

    rudderless
    I was considering a leg o mutton sail but I just couldn't get around that sail laying on the boom.
    But I might try a leg o mutton with the spare windsurf boom that came with my 20€ mast if I can get that mast to rotate.
    I might just buy a 5mē windsurf sail, they seem to work really well on PDRs.

  26. #96
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    My new rudder.
    Just one, longer hinge on a board that bolts on to the transome with 2 bolts. Could make a triangle and a second hinge probably.


  27. #97
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyweather View Post
    I was considering a leg o mutton sail but I just couldn't get around that sail laying on the boom.
    But I might try a leg o mutton with the spare windsurf boom that came with my 20€ mast if I can get that mast to rotate.
    I might just buy a 5mē windsurf sail, they seem to work really well on PDRs.
    You needn't respond to this now since you have higher priorities. But just to suggest for future directions. The sprit boom can be curved to not leave an imprint on the sail. Below is picture of the Shell Boats "Swifty" which has curved sprit boom and, like the rest of their designs, needs no battens and the mast doesn't have to rotate with the boom.

    I was just using my little boat that has a windsurf sail, and the sail seems too stiff and overbattened to catch light air which needs a fuller sail belly... optimized just for high wind. The window is too high to see thru and the stiff sail foot scrapes my head and blocks my view. I am unmotivated to deal with it in the near future (anyone want to buy it? ).

    Last edited by rudderless; 09-15-2017 at 07:20 PM.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I'll add that the sprit boom on my melonseed and canoe don't seem to inhibit sailing. But I built a curved one for my first dory. I just weighted the two staves between sawhorses while the glue dried. To keep it upright I ran the snotter around the boom.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    The boat just won me the grand price in the "Instructables Outdoor Challenge 2017".
    An Oru Beach LT folding plastic "kayak" ironically.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    That's wonderful - sail on, design on, and paddle on!

    Meanwhile I am pursuing the "easy" option of the gleaming Reverso. They have jacked up the price, and can only ship it halfway to me where I have to make transfer arrangements. My car has a lip on the hatch and turns out a couple inches too small to hold it. That beloved classic turns out to have a near zero trade-in value for an ugly, expensive, but roomy replacement. An online enquiry enabled an unwelcome car salesman to pound my phone around the clock as an unidentified caller. I might give up and stick with bendy deflatables. At least I don't suffer from glue fumes!
    Last edited by rudderless; 10-12-2017 at 08:43 PM.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Wow.
    I'd love to try the Reverso.
    They got nominated for boat of the year somewhere recently.

    I am still thinking about my new joining plates. They should be predone and easy to manufacture... without a CNC or much routing even if possible.
    I have thought of a step. That could be done by precutting the step on the stock with the table saw. Then a closed cell foam would go into the corners after sealing the wood with epoxy or paint.
    Then just glue some blocks, or an aluminium flatbar, on the inside of the hull where the shorter part is so that the parts fit together.
    Two matching aluminium profiles would be another idea. I just want the foam to go somewhere a little more protected than on the Reverso.

    The goal for my new hull is still under 6h (joining frames could be predone though) and around 100€.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I don't know if you posted the weight of your boat, but if it is less than Reverso's ample 163 pounds, that would be a plus. Now they try to include a beach dolly and misc doo-dads for another 20% of the price. It seems hard to justify a dolly, unless you have to park far from the launch and don't want to make the 5 or so long walks with each heavy piece and rigging (and maybe expose unaccompanied parts to theft). Or you have a too rough shoreline to assemble on and have to back off a bit.

    There is also the scenario of dolly launching at a concrete boatramp where you can't tie it up with assembly time or risk the scratches. But usually these ramps are not sailaway situations and you need to paddle this way and that to get out. I don't know if you went with oarlocks, but I thought of an alternative to having long oars kicking around catching lines. Not only a telescopic paddle but an SUP one could be used if your rudder keeps you straight. You could put a lot of arm power with big SUP blades, and either keep the tiller against your body or use a rope tiller dampener.

  33. #103
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Haven't weighted it but I guess it's ~40kg. Will do tomorrow.
    For transport I will have wheels on a board that can be screwed to the transome instead of the ruder. I can launch on grass.

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