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Thread: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

  1. #36
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I believe I made a mistake when glueing in the frames.
    Should have complete installed thee screws and silikone seal before. Now I just have spaced them with ~2mm of cardboard.
    I will see when I cut it, install the seal and screw it back together.
    Also indicating the cutting line with little holes or cuts in the panels would have helped I guess. That way I could have just worked from the outside with the Multitool.


  2. #37
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Last edited by heavyweather; 08-06-2017 at 11:18 AM.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyweather View Post
    Wow. Why did I never see that before!
    Appears to be another French export that doesn't believe in the economic theory of "elasticity of demand" - where you finesse price to incentivize profitable demand. Their price here is so round it looks binary - a one followed by countless zeros. Why advertise, when to buy is a privilege... it's a luxury rather than a commodity. Anyway, enough of my jealous speculation, let me comment on interesting design choices for this 4 module sailboat.

    Let's back up to your design brainstorming phase to consider the alternate directions Reverso took. Not really a comparison because I have forgotten some of the choices you made. Reverso nesting is in the obvious stack, except they cleverly point it sideways to allow a lot of boat width to extend lengthwise in cargo compartment. Fine for a SUV, but unforgiving in a smaller hatchback because no taper near lower wheelwells. However I think one could flip the stack upside down for this, probably relocating the bow triangle so you could maintain mirror visibility over the now lowered stack.

    BTW a nesting boat can be clumsy to get in and out of a highrise home. My inflatable sailboats usually wheel in and out of elevator with a foldable handcart, but a rigid stack may take a large 4 wheel cart that can't fold into the car. Also Reverso introduces a foldable trailer for the assembled boat and I wonder why they show it for beach launch instead of assembling at the shoreline and push. Maybe their wide gaps between modules picks up sand - I have a modular Point65 kayak that almost takes a sledge hammer to separate after shorebreak jams sand into the tongues and grooves. Also the 160 lb weight of the Reverso Air may be scratched by pebble beaches, but why not just assemble on pool noodles?

    Note an early prototype appeared to have NO clamps - just pegs and holes at the mating surfaces, and 2 gunnel tension straps and a floor one. Later some gunnel clamps and highly leveraged (3x pulleys?) pair of floor straps. Note the lack of daggerboard trunk in favor of a thick, stern-drainable floor. The inverted bow seems a bit too precious, especially if you hit a big chunk of floating debris and can't ride over it. No oarlocks, and how could you anchor them into glass and foam.

    Finally there is the slick look of style possibly over substance. The inside is like a slippery bathtub waiting to eject you out the semi open stern. Sure the rudder thingie would keep you in although maybe black and blue. I might grab a gunnel clamp and accidentally flip it open - I am not used to only having a hiking footstrap to hang on to. I have seen people fall out due to losing grip on a hiking footstrap. Oh well, add some stick on rubber traction pads, and I could be happy. I have already offered an unlikely trade-in with a dealer since I have no place to build kits. Big savings of setup time over inflatables like the fancy French Tiwal.
    Last edited by rudderless; 08-07-2017 at 03:08 PM.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I was also interested in the Tiwal, but they are all way too expensive for what they are.
    I might take up Inflatable foil windsurfing some day though

    The Reverso is too wide, it would only fit into the Sharan when I take out the seats. Won't bother with that, there's a child seat attached to each of the 3.

    Sand isn't an issue for me. I practically launch off the grass or parking lot.
    My sailing grounds are the "Alte Donau". 5 Minutes drive. A bike trailer would be cool.
    I guess I am happy with the design choices I made so far.
    Will only take the boat into the basement once a year, will live in the garden (under a tarp) in summer.
    When I get bored I'll try another Faltboot sailboat or a SOF part for the Mirage drive. Had some ideas about hybrids today...rigid bottom, SOF upper part.

    Some day I might grow up and rent a place for a boat. Length is restricted to 6m anyways. No multihulls unless they are inflatables, like the Grabner Happy Cat.

    What inflatables are you sailing? Got 2 Gumotex boats (Palava and Baracks) but there is no sailkit offered and frankly canoe sailing just doesn't look right.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Gosh, my Czech Minicat 420 Emotion is nearly the same as that HappyCat, which is to say a high performance monster with a fairly exhausting setup in any hot humidity. It deflates into 6 foot bags which just barely fit diagonally when I fold rear seats down and push passenger seat almost into the windshield. I wish the jib was self tacking and that there was a more secure way to hang on in waves. It's buoyancy bounces over rather than cuts thru waves. At least no fear of submarining. Happycat has sailing tips pdf which largely applies to the Minicat. If I was smaller I would enjoy the simplicity of Minicat 310 better. Oh, the Ukrainian inflatable catamarans probably give the best value for money if you have depth for it's deep daggerboard.

    I get the most fun from my humble Dutch Dinghygo Beach. There is a new model (Nomad?) with important stronger and lighter changes. It had terrible weather helm, but I was told to rig a tiller dampener line and now it behaves great. Oars aren't too effective because my model has too weak seat to use. But now I am going out in greater winds and waves than it is certified for and with my large size on a side it can really hold wind and zoom more than seems possible - almost like a hovercraft when I keep it's corduroyed floor flat.

    I have an Aquaglide Supersport which is like a giant windsurfer with high pressure planing hull (unlike Multisport). You can sit with shrouds or stand without. It works great at a flatwater site but so far I can't beat windward much against aggressive windwaves. Like the Minicat it has shallow draft which is important here.

    I have Hobie 12' inflatable Kayak with mighty pedal drive and sailkit, which lets me maneuver thru harbors or whatever. I can wheel it's suitcase to water without using a car, and carry the case and airpump onboard. The most practical go-anywhere boat, but without a boom it only sails well upwind and is somewhat shapeless on a reach or esp downwind. I suppose a boom-batten could be improvised.

    On order is the tiny Kayacat Max which fits in a backpack that should be acceptable on an urban bus. Oars and sail which can be put up or down while afloat for my 3 nearby low bridges. This is starting to sound extravagant, but I have cut out traveling, entertainment, and other sports.

    To do it over I would keep the last 2 boats which require no car and Dinghygo. The Reverso Air could replace the planing Supersport and fast Mini-catamaran which both can be uncomfortable to sit on and can't really be paddled in a pinch.
    Last edited by rudderless; 08-07-2017 at 10:53 PM.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Are there any suitable sailplans available (free for use) for this kind of boat?
    Would a Windsurf sail work? (Windsurfsail is not my first choice though) Are their free sail design programs that someone with no clue about sails could use?
    I could copy the shape of the original PT-11 sail but I really got no clue about sails and where to put the curves.
    Watched some YouTube videos but I am still very much clueless.
    My Tyvek won't yield the perfect sail anyways but a nice looking sail would still be cool.
    Any help appreciated.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I've downloaded sailcut and I really don't know what to do with it...I guess I am just gonna wing it.

    I will buy a cheap, parted Windsurf Mast and use that one. Modified it a bit and mount some kinda sail.



    Glassed the second cockpit section today, Aluminium tubes in the rails went in yesterday. Guess I am ready to cut the aft part tomorrow.

    I may not need sealing between the forward frames...or just smear some very thin silicone film in one of them.
    Last edited by heavyweather; 08-09-2017 at 10:36 AM.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Now I got a 465cm epoxy mast that came with a Windsurf boom. My boat turned out a little pointier than the original, also got the wales inside instead of the machined plywales of the original.



    If the clamps aren't enough for the aft parts I will add the ratchet solution from the Reverso. All around the cockpit, fastened to both sides of the stern and the ratchet on the inside of the cockpit right in front (aft) of the daggerboard trunk.
    Or just add clamps until it works.

    Did cut the thing partly this evening. Tomorrow I want to install the clamps.
    I am a little concerned about the interface there. I hope I get them flat enough to match nicely. If not I may have cut some additional frames from ply or machine some aluminium plates that match with a bead and cove or something.
    Somehow It should work, right?


    Edit: some context to the first picture. In the wales the aluminium tubes are routed in and hidden under the epoxy. I will have to drill small pinholes that the rod can go in without getting pressed out again.
    The ugly texture on the glass is from plastic film (food wrap). Had to go away for an hour and didn't get all the bubbles. Glassing in a hurry is really bad...almost always what I do (or in the dark).
    I will just sand it down a little and hope for the best.
    Probably just skip the fancy glosscoat.
    Also took away too much of the wales in the bow part (starboard)...never mind, will have forgotten that in 2 years...
    I couldn't do it nice if I had the time...
    Last edited by heavyweather; 08-09-2017 at 07:29 PM.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Good progress, keep at it.

    I also have Sailcut but have never used it. I would be surprised if there are no existing templates or database of designs to start off with.

    The WB Sails website has some nice articles on aerodynamics. Aside from area and planform which you can copy from the PT, you will need to design for camber shape and draft at various heights.
    https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hub/209338/...Shape/Aero.htm

  10. #45
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Regarding the rig, there will be some changes. Gonna go to 6.3m² (Spindrift sail) and the traveller will go in the middle of the boat like in a Byte.
    My mast is only 465cm but I will extend it at the top.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Cut.

    It is working. The index pins need to get shortened. I didn't glue them in and probably won't but they stick out too far, one almost cracked out of the epoxy when I took it appart. Maybe they are just too tight but I am too lazy for turning them off on the lathe.

    Now the faces are not cut that good.
    I might want to cut away a cm and only leave the edge at the clamps, then fill it on one side with epoxy, route a groove in, epoxy it again, tape it and fill it from the other side to get matching faces and the original orientation.
    Then I could run a bead of silikone in the groove or just cover one side with a film and hope it will be sealed.


  12. #47
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyweather View Post
    Regarding the rig, there will be some changes. Gonna go to 6.3m² (Spindrift sail) and the traveller will go in the middle of the boat like in a Byte.
    My mast is only 465cm but I will extend it at the top.
    Might there be some surprises in how tippy the hull is, that could suggest a different mast and sail height? Also surprises in hull Center of Lateral Resistance which may call for a relocated sail Center of Effort? Maybe avoid premature commitment on sail config (like my dad did once to me) until hull floating tests.

    I got a cheap sail rig meant to convert a SUP to sails (pretty royal purple with boom and all... not a windsurf rig). I believe such a thing is sold in Europe too, in case you sometime want to consider a half step from a homemade prototype sail to something short of a fancy commercial one.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    You are right. I am back to planning. Playing around with sailcut.
    Here's my first paper model and some data.

    Maybe someone can chime in and tell what is wrong with my sail.
    I got 15m² of Tyvek to waste. I guess I won't know the difference but I can try.
    If the hull turns out alright... doesn't leak or sink or break...I might get a professional sail made. Any idea what a sail costs here in Europe?

    Something else.
    The cockpit part is pretty flexy now, as suspected, what is the lightest and fastest method to stiffen things up? I also don't want to fill the cockpit too much. Probably diagonal carbon fiber ^^ ?


  14. #49
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Bump. Have you analyzed enough to avoid middle (inadvertent power up) case below:


  15. #50
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I have no idea where the CE in that sail is located. Todd Bradshaw says the windsurf ast is too bendy so I will do a wooden mast instead.

    Would it help to make the Mast moveable and with variable stepping for different angles?

  16. #51
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I might need to move the mast 15-20cm forward.



    I'll just make a moveable maststep/partner.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_helm
    A slight amount of weather helm is thought by some sailors to be a desirable situation, both from the standpoint of the "feel" of the helm, and the tendency of the boat to head slightly to windward in stronger gusts, to some extent self-feathering the sails. Other sailors disagree and prefer a neutral helm. Weather helm also provides a form of dead man's switch—the boat stops safely in irons if the helm is released for a length of time.


    https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruisin...e-is-all-about
    For reasons that aren't fully understood, most boats seem to sail best with a bit of rake. They also look better, to most eyes anyway.

    The majority of modern boats have their mast raked between 0.75 and 1.5 degrees

  18. #53
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I'm impressed with what you are doing. Definitely food for thought.
    Do the four pieces nest all in one stack?
    I almost always agree with Todd Bradshaw, but we use carbon two-piece windsurfing masts in our rigs very successfully.
    Building a stiffer mast from wood would be comparatively very heavy. Our rigs complete with boom, sail, and running rigging weigh just over 10 pounds, which makes the rig very easy to use.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    If this is a faithful reproduction of pt11 configuration, the helm balance should be ok. Based on tiller position in their vids, it looks like a hint of weather helm.

    The one alteration I would consider is raising the boom a few inches for better visability and head clearance (longer mast). Normally a sail that low would have a window on it. If a higher sail makes it too tippy, then saw mast shorter or use a removeable cap atop the mast (pvc pipe with sleeve?).

  20. #55
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Thank you Russell, means a lot to me, especially coming from you.

    It sort of nests, much like the Reverso, but it wouldn't fit in my car in normal orientation and in a bigger car you are fine with 2 parts also.
    Your boat, with the wales in the outside, would probably nest better in 4 parts.
    My design objective was this double clamshell nesting which works like intended. Walesa the outside would add some centimeters and it wouldn't fit behind the seats.
    But I guess it could be done with some Boolean trickery in Rhino...



    Today I sanded the hull and I am probably going to glass it tomorrow.
    Precoating the panel on the inside would have been the smarter move. On their outside I can now do full panels without a seam. Glassing is a nightmare for me. I might retry the whole exercise in SOF some day.

    Another thing I would do differently next time are the connections. Especially the one in the cockpit is difficult and I still don't know if I will get that one even watertight.
    Next time I would preassemble all the joints and indicate the cuts on the outside of the hull. Then route through the hull from the outside. That would also give some groove to hide the end of the glass and embed it in a solid epoxy edge.


    About the mast. I saw that you are using a windsurf industry sourced carbon mast. It fits in your 8' bag so I guess it is about 465cm (16'-20cm for the overlap?).
    Mine is 100% Epoxy, 465cm and 3,1kg.

    I was going to do my sail today when I saw your post. I didn't dare to but since you are here now may I ask what luff curve you would suggest? The PT 11 sail also seems very deep. Maybe it's me but the draft looks over 10%.
    I am also interested in your opinion on the CE.

    I guess it doesn't really matter, I am only using Tyvek for now anyways.

    Here's my sail design. I reduced the luffcurve to 55mm and lenghtend the gaff to 90mm. What do you think?

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...28#post5312628

    Marcus
    Last edited by heavyweather; 08-14-2017 at 06:49 PM.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Hello Marcus,
    I think you have been deep into the nesting boat subject with this project. Lots of compromises eh?
    If you get bogged down, just think about how it would be to design one that lots of people would build and then try to explain how to build it as well.
    I built a 4 part nesting kayak in the late 70's that was back packable. It got an incredible amount of use and adventure, including lots of surfing, some of it on really big waves. I built a much nicer 3 part nesting kayak in the 80's, but they both suffered from compromises. The nicer one was a great boat, but took too long to assemble and disassemble. I still own those two. The one that didn't survive is another story.

    Yes, we use a 460 cm standard diameter carbon mast. The masts we get now are very high grade and light. It sounds like you bought a glass/epoxy mast, which will be roughly the same stiffness, but much heavier. That's fine to start with.
    How about buying a used Laser sail to start with? They make a small rig. Is it called the Radial? The Laser rig is similar in respect to mast bend and associated sail shape issues.
    Don't try too hard to get it right the first time because it will never be right the first time. Prototypes are fun, especially if you aren't trying to write a building manual while building the boat.
    Glassing should be fun and easy too. it sounds like you need some divine intervention there...
    My first nesting dinghy is now just about 40 years old. It's a piece of junk and shows lots of mistakes and structural issues, but it's still going and was well worth the effort.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Quote Originally Posted by heavyweather View Post
    I might need to move the mast 15-20cm forward.



    I'll just make a moveable maststep/partner.
    I'm in the camp that likes the boat to round up (and stop) if I fall overboard.
    I have no expertise in this at all but - it looks to me that unless you are planning on being close hauled all the time, when you let the sail out the CE will move forward of the CLR quickly, and cause some lee helm.
    Some like neutral (if you can get it), some like weather - I don't think anyone likes lee helm.

    It might look quite nice to rake the mast aft a little? If using the windsurfer mast, you could probably form a curve into luff - have the sail curve aft as it rises, that might also compliment nicely.

    This is a cool boat!
    “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge” - Charles Darwin (1809–1882)

    Nutshell Pram Build pictures ; https://photos.app.goo.gl/1GdBcckcgBAWsbVg1

  23. #58
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I think a concern now is too whippy take-apart mast. All mine are aluminum, and since they are stepped into inflated PVC, they mostly use shrouds to stay straight. My Hobie kayak manages this even with a mast sleeve sail - they just permanently sew the shrouds to the mast sleeve. My supersport uses a windsurfer sail which has cutouts in the mast sleeve to attach shrouds. Interestingly, the shrouds come down to an upside down Y branching to spread the load to 2 points (maybe to 2 of your modular sections?). Keep the Y intersection below boom level so as to not restrict boom range.

    Another approach is to put something inside the unstayed mast. A Hobie guy with oversized unstayed sails tried a few stiff fillers and reported great results with something I forget. Oh, I just remembered my Dinghygo has an unstayed mast stuck into plywood which is clamped into inflated PVC - I think it is working fine, but will have to eyeball the mast for bending. That was the boat which included a short extender atop mast to get the boom up and out of the way.
    Last edited by rudderless; 08-15-2017 at 01:34 AM.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Just went ahead, cut and taped the sail today.

    I also glassed the outside hull.
    Really went good today...maybe divine intervention or just the easier parts and the 160g glass instead of that awfull 280g stuff.



    Last edited by heavyweather; 08-18-2017 at 06:01 PM.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    How's it going Marcus? Are you going to keep posting your progress?

  26. #61
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Hi Russell,

    Had an emergency and had to suspend the built for some days..
    Just came home from a holiday in Croatia 30min ago



    Got to get the house in order first...all alone with 3 kids.

    Next is the daggerboard trunk, the foils, some experimenting with Silikone on sanded surfaces, finishing the sail, finishing fiberglass edges, the rubrail,....much work left, school starts on the 30th.

    But then...I can keep that boat in the car for some time so I hope to get a lot of time on the water next month...might have to get a drysuit

  27. #62
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I hope the emergency wasn't a bad one.
    Are you planning to make your gaskets with silicone? We use surgical tubing for gaskets and it's amazing as a gasket material but it has to be glued into a rectangular notch.
    There's another goo that you might want to experiment with. It looks like silicone, but it smells like model airplane glue. It's called GOOP and it comes in a tube and I see it everywhere now. I think it's a relative of Shoe Goo, which has been around for a long time. I think it's a bit less flexible than silicone, but the adhesion is amazing.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    The emergency was a week in Croatia before summer is over

    I know most of the goo for shoes from skateboarding.
    Also read about you using surgical tubing and saw something about routing the slot on your blog.
    Before I try the tubing I want to try to coat one side with some material.
    I also tried a black goo before on fabric for skin on frame. It is still very rubbery after 5 years on a frame.
    I will try to coat one side but without taking of the phenolic coating completely...just rough it up with sandpaper.

    I coated the cockpit seam with epoxy today, trying to get flat, matching surfaces before coating.
    Also coated all the exposed plywood edges.

    Got all 3 children till my wife is back on Sunday...
    That was today's project.


  29. #64
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Here's a good link for anybody looking into Tyvek for sail.
    The best example I could find (at least looking like a decent sail).

    https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/...ppy-with-Tyvek




  30. #65
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I don't know if this can make construction any easier, but I am a proponent of non-removed battens. Mine often can't develop tension either by defect or excessive stiffness, so why go thru this eternal process of threading them in, tensioning, and fishing them out? I find creative ways to S-fold all my sails to accommodate the battens which usually just fits into the sailbag. I might just glue battens or sew informal stiffeners on to the sail, or something. I guess I used to rig an old hang glider that had about 16 uncooperative battens to tension before lessons - phew!

  31. #66
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Today I did the seals.
    Just coated the uncritical seams with silikone. The cockpit seam is done with a cut up silikone tube stapled to one side.
    The pressure on that is pretty good and I made sure that the sides match pretty good (couldn't find my feeler gauge but a Japanese spatula would not fit...0.4mm on the micrometer...tried two pieces of paper... didn't go in...so less than 0.24mm.).
    Tried to glue the Tube on one side with carpet tape but it didn't stick to the silikone so I tried little brass tacks that I use for skin on frame cloth...went through the tube. Staples work.
    If It comes off I try some other gluekit I got around.

    Isn't there any silikone tape that you can just apply? I tried AliExpress and all the usual suspects where you can find such stuff but totally out of luck.


  32. #67
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    The rubrail is on, sanded and routed.
    Bought some funny hardware for my rudder.
    Found a silikone seal that is actually two hoses beside each other...you can cut it in the middle.
    Maybe I'll use that in my next attempt.
    Bought new plywood, did foil templates, mirrored them and printed 1:1.
    Want to do the daggerboard tomorrow so I can fit the trunk. Then the maststep and then cut the rubrail, paint everything with epoxy and do the rudder last....and the sail still needs to get stitched.

    Flo-Mo.. I hope you can join me for some launch in 2, maybe 3 weeks?


  33. #68
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    I shaped both foils today and glued them up.
    Not as much progress as I hoped for. I only got tomorrow left to finish the boat.

    I planned 3-5 weeks to build it but it always gets longer... don't even know why.
    Should probably finish the sail tonight but I am tired.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Ruderless,
    I'll try without battens first. The sail seems huge, but maybe that's just because it's inside.
    Anyways...coated the wales with epoxy, did the daggerboard trunk today, the ruder assembly which is a copy of the goat island skiffs ruder (with some strange hardware, might post a picture later) and I did some work on the sail (the corner batches).

    Work starts again today...
    I still have to finish the foils and do the maststep/partner.


  35. #70
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    Default Re: 11' Four Part Nesting Dinghy

    Here's more than you wanted to know about battens vs nonbattens from pt sail www.porttownsendsails.com/pdf/mainsails.pdf . Starting p. 3 they describe how to concave the roach if you later want a really tight shape w/o battens. Looks like the pt 11 has 2 battens that don't have to be removed - sigh, I had thought I was rebel for doing that.
    Last edited by rudderless; 08-30-2017 at 11:59 PM.

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