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Thread: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

  1. #1
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    Default Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    I'm estimating the cost for my first strip-planked sailboat, a 15-footer. While a local mill stocks bead & cove strips in WRC, they are intended for canoes and much thinner than I need so I figure I'll make my own.

    The plans call for 18x18mm Douglas Fir strips with a 2.5mm bead/cove:



    this gives a radius of 17.5mm or 11/16". I don't think bead & cove bits are made this large, so I found a 3/4" 'fluting' bit and 23/32" 'convex edging' bit which I believe will give the specified arc:


    I suppose I'll make a few test pieces and check the fit to start, but I wanted a sort of sanity check from anyone who's routed their own strips before I go and drop $150 on bits. Compared to every strip-planking resource I've found, these coves seem rather shallow and the strips on the thick side, what do y'all think?

    -----------------------------------------------------

    I'm also looking into epoxy selection. I've never used the stuff before so I'm a bit concerned with the variety suitable for strip-planking. The plans (which were written in '94 I think) spec Sicomin SR 500, which apparently doesn't exist.

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    I've only built kayaks with 1/4" thick strips (~6mm).
    But a Mellonseed sailboat I thought about building used 1/4" strips. So these do seem thick for a 15'.
    Normal 1/4 strips have a 1/4" diameter cove and bead.
    Seems to me that the geometry you show will cause a raised lip between strips on the tightest curve (in the bilge?).
    That means there is a dip on the inside of the curve.

    If you are going to glass the outside and inside, that means lots of fairing and filling - but, that thick of a hull probably means you do not need to glass for strength.
    Can you tell us what the total hull construction is and what the boat is? Are you suppose to connect the strips using nails (and glue). This looks like a very heavy hull.

    If there is any way to get a few strips made so you can do a test on a representative curved section?

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Why would a 15' boat need thicker strips than 1/4"?
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Do you really need coved strips? In thin planking' a few swipes of a plane and the fit is perfect. And there is no delicate feather edge to break off.

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    I'm curious about the choice for fir as well--seems like that will make for a pretty heavy hull.

    I planked up a pretty curvy 18' whitehall:



    with 1/2" thick by 1" wide strips, glued and edge nailed. Seems plenty stout, but I wouldn't have wanted to go with 1/4" strips. I went with plain straight strips with a little beveling with a plane near the transom. That worked fine, though I suppose bead and cove might save a little fairing time. Myself, I would do straight strips again and save the time and cost of milling a fancy edge on each strip. I ripped all my strips very quickly with a table saw.

    Good luck with the build.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    Jagular Goes Everywhere: (mis)Adventures in a $300 Sailboat. Book release November 2014.

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Quote Originally Posted by junko-pardner View Post
    I'm estimating the cost for my first strip-planked sailboat, a 15-footer. While a local mill stocks bead & cove strips in WRC, they are intended for canoes and much thinner than I need so I figure I'll make my own.

    The plans call for 18x18mm Douglas Fir strips with a 2.5mm bead/cove:



    this gives a radius of 17.5mm or 11/16". I don't think bead & cove bits are made this large, so I found a 3/4" 'fluting' bit and 23/32" 'convex edging' bit which I believe will give the specified arc:


    I suppose I'll make a few test pieces and check the fit to start, but I wanted a sort of sanity check from anyone who's routed their own strips before I go and drop $150 on bits. Compared to every strip-planking resource I've found, these coves seem rather shallow and the strips on the thick side, what do y'all think?

    -----------------------------------------------------

    I'm also looking into epoxy selection. I've never used the stuff before so I'm a bit concerned with the variety suitable for strip-planking. The plans (which were written in '94 I think) spec Sicomin SR 500, which apparently doesn't exist.
    you are describing "half round" router bits 5/8" or 3/4" no 18 mm that I can find.
    https://www.amazon.com/Magnate-Round-Carbide-Tipped-Router/dp/B0006B0PXU/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1495382592&sr=1-2&keywords=5%2F8%22++half+round+router+bits



    but either of the prior should work. Doug fir will give you lots of splinters no matter how you mill it.. but that's just my opinion. I think 1/2" is the most I would go for in a 15ft boat.


    Welcome aboard! you are doing like many of us.. overthinking because it's your first.. relax.. it's all been done and proven millions of times.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    What design? Does the designer really call for 18mm thick strips? I agree that sounds more like a hard-use utility hull than a sailboat.

    And I also question the necessity for bead & cove. And echo the concern Denise mentions about how cutting them will only accentuate douglas fir's tendency to split & splinter.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    A set of shaper blades in your table saw will do an easier, faster and cleaner job!
    Jay

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    What design?

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Thank you for all the responses! Much to take in.

    The design is the smallest "jonque de plaisance" by Dimitri Le Forestier. Here is a link to the characteristics (along with the promotional brochure, I'm not trying to sell anything). This is my first project and one of my reasons for selecting this design is the inclusion of an amateur construction guide which is pretty detailed in most respects.

    upchurchmr,
    you're right, the strips are edge-glued and nailed, no sheathing. The displacement is 640lb. There are 6 frames for the hull in 30mm thick laminated mahogany.

    WI-tom,
    Nice boat! I didn't know that strip planking could be done with plain strips, I will look into that.


    I don't think DF is a necessity, in fact I can get Western Red Cedar for much cheaper, but I am worried that would change the weight enough to affect the waterline? Is that ever a concern? Hah you're right, I do sound like I'm over thinking it. I have another 2 months before I can begin construction and I have little else to do besides plan ahead.

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Thanks for the additional info. I'm still a bit confused on one point. The literature mentions the 'second and third layers' of planking being mahogany. Elsewhere, it refers to a 'single layer of planking'. Sounds like your understanding is the latter? If so... the question still remains... does it really require 18mm thickness?
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    I understand that refers only to the larger designs. I suppose one advantage of square strips is that you don't have to worry about flat vs vertical grain as you can rotate them. Whether that is justification for the thickness, I really don't know!

    I am curious about the straight-strip method: wouldn't that leave gaps between the strips that need to be filled with epoxy?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Can you tell us what attracted you to this design?
    Many of the features are not typical of well known designs.
    Forward leaning mast, sail controls, junk rig (unlike any I've seen).

    I went to the web site - sorry, it's not ever going to be my cup of tea.

    Using square strips is relatively simple. As you say, the strips will lay next to each other with an angled gap. Wood on one strip (the new one) has to be planed/ filed/ sanded away to make the strips touch across their width along the full length. This sounds difficult, but is learned after you have installed 2 or 3 strips and becomes fairly repetitive normal work.

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    Wood on one strip (the new one) has to be planed/ filed/ sanded away to make the strips touch across their width along the full length.
    Ok, that sounds pretty straightforward. So I would lay the incoming strip on top of the last one to get an idea of how much to plane away? I'm confident in the rest of the construction, the planking is what intimidates me most so I appreciate all advice on the method.

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    Can you tell us what attracted you to this design?
    I had avoided posting the design because I didn't want to stir up a controversy on the merits/demerits of the junk (I've spent hours reading those on this forum and others). I've been advised by my sailing friends that I'd be better off buying a used fiber boat for a fraction of the price, but I'm sticking with this for better or worse. Basically I was drawn to the junk rig by its purported ease of handling, simplicity, and low cost. And there is a personal angle- after I bought the plans my grandmother told me that my late grandfather had intended to fit a boat with a junk rig.

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Do you have any sailing experience​?
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Yes on how to see the amount/ shape to cut.
    One thing to remember is that you can probably start from the gunwale and plank down a ways, but sometime you will have to go around the bilge.
    On kayaks I start from the gunwale and the keel at the same time.
    When you meet at the bow or stern you are going to have to fit the end of each existing plank/ strip to what is already there.
    The ends of the strips will progressively need more cutting/ fitting/ TAPERING. This becomes the biggest part of planking the hull - to me.
    I really wouldn't want to do it in 18mm.

    Here is a picture on a kayak: Perhaps someone will have something more appropriate to the thick strips you are talking about.


    About the epoxy selection, practically anything will work so long as you have a choice of cure time. I use West system, but it is expensive. I also use the pumps offered to get the accurate mix required for epoxy. Never had them fail.
    West offers a classic book on download for epoxy/ wood boat building work, and their web site has lots of good information. This is really the first and best known reference on wood epoxy. You can also buy a copy for $40 - cheap at twice the price. I have the printed first printing, they are in the 5th now.
    http://www.westsystem.com/wp-content...k-061205-1.pdf
    Last edited by upchurchmr; 05-21-2017 at 05:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    I'd repeat the question Denise asked.
    Modern boats are really pretty easy to handle the sails.
    Junks seem to attract novice sailors or those who want to sail alone around the world in their older years. Not much in between.

    You've spent a lot on those plans, wish I could have suggested a Melonseed 16 or numerous other boats that look much easier to build and maintain (and sail - but I've never sailed a Junk).

    When you get going please keep showing us your build pictures. Lots of people will be interested - and may have helpful suggestions.
    Most are less negative than me.

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    I have no familiarity with boats of that type, so i won't comment on the design or on whether its choice is appropriate.

    I very much like the bead&cove idea and have used it in strips ranging from 3/16" to 5/8" thickness.
    There are lots of ways to mill strips. Search a router bit cat alog and get creative. Whatever works is fine.

    In this case, I am greatly concerned about a strip thickness of 18mm. (0.7"). The stated displacement, which i assume includes people and their stuff, is about 640 lbs. That boat has about 100 ft^2 of planking and at .7" thickness of Douglas Fir, the planking alone will weigh about 200 lbs. What might the finished boat weigh when empty? Something doesn't compute.

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    I'd repeat the question Denise asked.
    Modern boats are really pretty easy to handle the sails.
    Junks seem to attract novice sailors or those who want to sail alone around the world in their older years. Not much in between.

    You've spent a lot on those plans, wish I could have suggested a Melonseed 16 or numerous other boats that look much easier to build and maintain (and sail - but I've never sailed a Junk).

    When you get going please keep showing us your build pictures. Lots of people will be interested - and may have helpful suggestions.
    Most are less negative than me.
    I get ignored allot here.. I did welcome him too!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Wow, what an awesome resource/textbook!! I like the handsaw & chisel method of fairing the frames to accept the planking. They mention 1" thick strips, so I guess it's not that strange... probably for a 40' boat though.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Do you have any sailing experience​?
    Not relevant
    But seriously, does 6 hours on a Sunfish count?

    If I do go ahead with it I'll be sure to post some pictures. Thanks everyone for the advice. Jim, good to hear that it's ok to improvise re. bits.
    I think I'll contact the designer and ask about the plank thickness just to hear his opinion.

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Quote Originally Posted by junko-pardner View Post
    Wow, what an awesome resource/textbook!! I like the handsaw & chisel method of fairing the frames to accept the planking. They mention 1" thick strips, so I guess it's not that strange... probably for a 40' boat though.


    Not relevant
    But seriously, does 6 hours on a Sunfish count?

    If I do go ahead with it I'll be sure to post some pictures. Thanks everyone for the advice. Jim, good to hear that it's ok to improvise re. bits.
    I think I'll contact the designer and ask about the plank thickness just to hear his opinion.
    Actually... it is relevant. It helps us know how to phrase and tailor our advice. In fact... there is a truism about questions posed to internet forums like this one. That is: the more related information you can think of to share with the group... the more accurately target our advice will be to your situation.
    David G
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    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Just a warning if you build any small boat for sailing, they go over almost as easy as a sunfish, why? I'll let you research it, good luck,
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Just a warning if you build any small boat for sailing, they go over almost as easy as a sunfish, why? I'll let you research it, good luck,
    Having sailed lots of small boats, I don't agree at all that they "go over" easy. Any small boat can be capsized, but it's hardly a routine occurrence. And if the boat is designed well, it's generally not a big deal to re-right it if the worst does happen.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    Jagular Goes Everywhere: (mis)Adventures in a $300 Sailboat. Book release November 2014.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    wasn't meant for the experienced Tom, Just trying to get the op to do his homework. My H23 wouldn't go over no matter what we did LOL But it had a weighted C/B My O30 would round up. But she was 10K fin keel. Getting wet with small boats is part of the fun!

    Here's the boat he wants to build do I see something akin to a cat boat in there?

    Last edited by DeniseO30; 05-21-2017 at 09:14 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Actually... it is relevant. It helps us know how to phrase and tailor our advice. In fact... there is a truism about questions posed to internet forums like this one. That is: the more related information you can think of to share with the group... the more accurately target our advice will be to your situation.
    I didn't think about it that way, but you're right. I was just leery of veering away from carpentry and into the weeds, but heck it's a discussion anyway. As for capsizing, the floor panels and thwarts are "independent" aka unattached so I guess they'd just float away? Haha.

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Edge glued and nailed is overstuffing for a 15 'er.
    perhaps your design is too old school?

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's


    What I used to sail. Solo most of the time..got tired of people not showing up and not even bringing water to drink lol only 30 ft had dreams of 38-42 ft but got old along the way. My son was 6'2 and walked around in the cabin without bumping his head I love small boats too I just love being on bigger boats more

    Last edited by DeniseO30; 05-21-2017 at 10:06 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    What I used to sail. Solo most of the time..got tired of people not showing up and not even bringing water to drink lol only 30 ft had dreams of 38-42 ft but got old along the way. My son was 6'2 and walked around in the cabin without bumping his head I love small boats too I just love being on bigger boats more
    Is 30' considered small or big? I do dream of owning or living in a boat that size some day but I figure I should start with baby steps and see if I can even handle it

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Edge glued and nailed is overstuffing for a 15 'er.
    perhaps your design is too old school?
    I believe it is 25+ years old so maybe that's it.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    I personally feel it's easier to learn on a larger boat. 30ft is a very moderate size for most. larger then that. the costs get exponentially higher. we built a bunch of strip canoes and then I said no more and went for traditional building.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    http://www.rockler.com/rockler-bead-...anoe-building#

    Recently picked up a bead and cove bit from rocker for 1/2" stock (r=1/4) ,haven't used it yet as plans change all the time .

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Jim,

    The one you showed is 1/2" dia shank, for 1/4" strips.
    Note the 1/8" radius of the cutting surface of the cutter.

    Hope you got what you wanted.

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Yes,got it OK thanks, couldn't post just the one bit ,I scroll down and it's the bottom one ,good if OP can use 1/2" material ...

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    Default Re: Bead & cove router bits / misc strip planking q's

    Lets' talk about the plank thickness. Modern strip planking is done with thinner strips, few or no ribs and depend heavily on fiberglass sheathing inside and out for strength. I believe you're talking about the more traditional method where the strips are thicker and have ribs (but fewer then a carvel-planked hull) and no fiberglass sheathing.
    18mm (or 3/4") planking for your boat is overkill. Decades ago, I built a 20' George Stadel pilot sloop. This was a heavily built fully ballasted keel boat designed for open ocean use. Mr. Stadel was alive back then and I enjoyed talking with him about the building of the boat. When I mentioned that I wanted to go with strip planking, he told me to use 5/8"X1" strips and just install every other rib. The strips were glued and edge nailed to each other. The strips were Phillippine mahogany so might have been stiffer then WRC or doug fir. This was back before the sage advice of the Forum was available or I would have been talked out of the Phillippine mahogany, since it's not really mahogany at all. The strips were also just square edged. Sold many years ago, I wonder if she still sailing.
    Another member of this Forum has a traditionally built strip planked 39' ketch with 1" thickness strips.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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