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Thread: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I think you miss the point by isolating one character flaw shared by the two men. Ailes is disrespected and Clinton largely respected because of the sum total of their actions.
    Echoing what others have already pointed out -- I think what we see here is a certain mad-hatter lunge at anything faintly resembling a point against the 'other side'. In a desperate attempt to 'score points' they are willing to disregard distinctions, torture logic, and ignore facts.

    To me - every instance and type of sexual impropriety is deplorable. But that's as far as my agreement with the dingbats goes. I can also go on to see distinctions in degree, and in the amount of warranted objection and condemnation in a range of bad behaviors. Which would you least approve of/most censure: An extramarital affair between two adults with extenuating circumstances (oh... say... both have spouses in a coma and not expected to awake); An extramarital affair with no extenuating circumstances; Someone in a position of wealth and power using their position to promote consensual, but imbalanced, sexual relations; Someone picking up a drunk girl, taking her home, and using her compromised state to induce sex; Someone using a 'date rape' drug; Someone busting into a woman's house, beating her nearly unconscious, and raping her? Of course, the law wouldn't treat these all the same. And on a moral level... I wouldn't regard them as the same level of 'deplorable' at all, at all.

    To use such a false equation as the core of your argument is silly, of course. But also deplorable. And... to top it all off... EVEN IF the equivalency was legitimate... the argument would still fail on 'two wrongs make a right' grounds.

    Apologists... ugghhhh! (to quote our friend Skipper) <G>
    David G
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    To me - every instance and type of sexual impropriety is deplorable.
    Of course. That is half of my point.

    To use such a false equation as the core of your argument is silly, of course. But also deplorable. And... to top it all off... EVEN IF the equivalency was legitimate... the argument would still fail on 'two wrongs make a right' grounds.

    Apologists... ugghhhh! (to quote our friend Skipper) <G>
    Not my argument. You seem to be confused. Perhaps you should read again.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I think you miss the point by isolating one character flaw shared by the two men. Ailes is disrespected and Clinton largely respected because of the sum total of their actions.
    Take it further, CW because there is no need to defend Clinton in order to justify speaking the truth about Ailes. Clinton gets no respect for being a turd and a liar. He gets no respect for being sexually involved with his aides, albeit in Lewinsky's case, both parties were consenting, unlike Ailes' behavior. And Clinton gets no love for jumping off an airplane to speak to the AG. As a result, he's lost his mojo in the process. He's irrelevant.

    Ailes has all that baggage of course. The thing is the discussion is about Ailes. And about how Ailes peddled falsehoods and fabrications for his entire career. But as long as there is a Clinton to throw out as a red herring, we have to discuss Ailes if we are to spar with mdh. An effective debating tactic perhaps, but like Clinton himself, entirely irrelevant when we're talking about puffy.

    There are other turds in the punchbowl but pointing to them to defend Ailes is an extremely weak defense. It certainly wouldn't make a bit of difference if any of the many, many accusations leveled at Ailes by his underlings had ever gone to court. The "Clinton did it" defense has yet to be proven effective in an actual trial.
    Last edited by Lew Barrett; 05-19-2017 at 10:36 PM.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    We Live in the World Roger Ailes Broke

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate..._all_dt_tw_top

    Roger Ailes, the former head of the Fox News Channel, passed away on Thursday at the age of 77. The news was announced via a statement from his wife, Elizabeth, who wrote that “his work in entertainment, in politics, and in news affected the lives of many millions.” This is true.

    Isaac Chotiner Isaac Chotiner is a Slate staff writer.

    Ailes leaves behind one of the largest legacies of any media figure of the past century: He made our country nastier, stupider, cruder, and more bigoted. Even as the memory of Ailes the man fades, we will always be able to look back on what he built.

    When Rupert Murdoch hired Ailes to create Fox News as an "alternative" to the mainstream media, Murdoch's intention was clear. He wanted to degrade American society in precisely the way he had degraded British society. And when degradation is your goal, there is no better hire than Roger Ailes. Ailes was a political aide turned television genius who emanated anger; his crucial insight was that there was a great amount of money to be made off the resentments of others. And the more you could stoke those resentments, the more money you would earn. At the same time, you could increase the net amount of resentment, and create a coarser society, all the better for your own pocketbook.

    But Ailes was not some phony elitist playing a con on the rubes. No, he really loved degrading people, and he held the same resentments as the pathetic viewers whose worlds he manipulated. Indeed, one of the special things about Ailes was the depth of his hatred, and the broad-ranging reach of his racism. Some bigots confine their disgust to a single group, or religion; Ailes, however, was never so limited. Who did the man dislike? Muslims? Yep. Black Americans? Check. Jews? Uh-huh. Hispanics? Yes. Fox, under Ailes' leadership, became a leader in spewing all these different forms of bigotry. He was a visionary.


    Ailes also took a special interest in the careers of much of the female talent at Fox News. His leadership style was to sexually harass female employees and ensure a grotesque environment at the network, which nicely mimicked the misogyny Fox watchers could see on their television screens every day. Elizabeth Ailes’ statement recalling the millions of lives her husband affected calls to mind Stalin’s line about one death being a tragedy, and millions of deaths being a mere statistic. Ailes’ family and friends should never forget that their beloved Roger ruined individual lives, too.


    It is sometimes said during a period of mourning that we should focus on the life, rather than the death. Who could disagree in this case? There will be other Roger Ailes: men of low character and morals who don't care about the society they help destroy and the lives they help wreck, who don't give a second thought to the victims of their petty prejudices and vomit-inducing sexual desires. But by ensuring that his id was available on television every night for millions of viewers, Ailes helped elect a president remarkably similar to himself, thus permanently enshrining his legacy. Ailes may be resting in peace; the rest of us live in the decidedly nonpacific world he helped create.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    Take it further, CW because there is no need to defend Clinton in order to justify speaking the truth about Ailes. ...
    I don't disagree with you at all and I don't disagree with David's post #38. I just don't want this false equivalency attributed to me as David seems to want.

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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Roger that. To be clear, my reply wasn't directed at you.
    Your comment was simply a good place for me to jump back in to this "discussion."
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    True. Clinton got a BJ from a stupid little sl*t. . . .
    You may not realize it, but that little piece of misogynistic degradation is completely un-called-for.


    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Not my argument. You seem to be confused. Perhaps you should read again.
    David has fallen into the trap of using 'you' rather than 'one'.

    'You really shouldn't refer to young women as sluts' is far more pointed than 'One really shouldn't refer to young women as sluts.'


    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    The "Clinton did it" defense has yet to be proven effective in an actual trial.
    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slate..._all_dt_tw_top

    Murdoch's intention was clear. He wanted to degrade American society in precisely the way he had degraded British society.
    Murdoch, Ailes, and Putin have the same MO.


    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I don't disagree with you at all and I don't disagree with David's post #38. I just don't want this false equivalency attributed to me as David seems to want.
    David used 'you' rather than the 'one' he needed to use for clarity.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    You may not realize it, but that little piece of misogynistic degradation is completely un-called-for.

    David used 'you' rather than the 'one' he needed to use for clarity.
    If you have a better word for someone who engages in sexual activity with a married man, let me know and I will use it. I criticize him for it. She should not escape criticism, either. I think the word is an accurate description of her behavior. I am sorry you disagree, but then I won't give her a pass just because she is female. His behavior was unethical and immoral. So was hers.

    As for David, it's simple English. If I mean to say "One should not give BJs to married men.", but instead said "You should not give BJs to married men.", would that make my point? If I said "You" in a direct response to your posting, as David did, would you take it as a direct response?

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    If you have a better word for someone who engages in sexual activity with a married man, let me know and I will use it. I criticize him for it. She should not escape criticism, either. I think the word is an accurate description of her behavior. I am sorry you disagree, but then I won't give her a pass just because she is female. His behavior was unethical and immoral. So was hers.

    As for David, it's simple English. If I mean to say "One should not give BJs to married men.", but instead said "You should not give BJs to married men.", would that make my point? If I said "You" in a direct response to your posting, as David did, would you take it as a direct response?
    Just a couple of things.

    1) There is no equivalent word for a male 'slut'. The 'S word' is degrading to female sexuality, and is a powerful tool for keeping women's sexuality under male control. It performs a very similar function to the 'N word'. By relieving one from thinking about the behavior, one is then free to be misogynist or racist.

    If one finds her behavior unethical or immoral one is certainly entitled to express that thought, but the words used are important. They carry freight. One could even say they are 'fraught'.

    2)
    If I mean to say "One should not give BJs to married men.", but instead said "You should not give BJs to married men.", would that make my point?
    The point is that users of English say 'you can't do that' when they actually MEAN 'one can't do that' ALL THE TIME.

    One must be aware of this. It is better to ask that person if they intended a pointed remark, than to go off before one is certain.
    Rattling the teacups.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    No male equivalent to the word "slut"? True. Has always seemed like a striking failure of creativity, for all that.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Just a couple of things.

    1) There is no equivalent word for a male 'slut'. The 'S word' is degrading to female sexuality, and is a powerful tool for keeping women's sexuality under male control. It performs a very similar function to the 'N word'. By relieving one from thinking about the behavior, one is then free to be misogynist or racist.

    If one finds her behavior unethical or immoral one is certainly entitled to express that thought, but the words used are important. They carry freight. One could even say they are 'fraught'.

    2)

    The point is that users of English say 'you can't do that' when they actually MEAN 'one can't do that' ALL THE TIME.

    One must be aware of this. It is better to ask that person if they intended a pointed remark, than to go off before one is certain.
    I'm sorry, but you are just wrong. I respect your opinion, but it isn't right.

    I asked my wife, who is very sensitive to such things, and she said that calling ML a slut is not misogynistic. It is not the equivalent of using anatomical or racial terms. It does not describe a random outcome of birth. It is a description of immoral behavior. We are not talking about female sexuality. We are talking about a lack of morality. I would be more than happy to use it to refer to Clinton as well if it would be accepted as grammatically correct. Give me another word that means the same for men and I will use it for him.

    As for David's misuse of the English language, say what you mean. He has lectured me enough. I expect him to speak with clear intent. He was speaking in direct response to my post and saying "you".

    Now I've had enough of this. mdh, who raised this red herring, has successfully derailed the discussion. I won't contribute further to this misdirection.

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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    Give me another word that means the same for men and I will use it for him.
    Try "cad".
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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    No, Ailes was no saint. But does he, as an R, deserve this spitting hatred for talking to or touching women illicitly; while Clinton, as a D, gets respect and admiration, after sexual and physical assault and rape. Then, braggadocios words in a conversation, unknowingly taped, without one credible account of actual occurrence, are the basis for another dose of seething hatred and disqualification for existence, because he's an R.
    .

    Actually, I don't despise Ailes for being a Republican. I lament what he did to our country, to our political discourse, and to the very notion that there is such a thing as truth.

    I was surprised that Clinton didn't resign when his peccadilloes became public, and I never forgave Ted Kennedy for Blackwater. I also think it was quite appropriate for Ailes to be forced out at Fox. The pity is, he wasn't forced out sooner, for what he did to journalism and for sowing discord and polarization in the country. He never cared whether a story was true, only if it could help the conservative cause. It's a bit odd that those who decried bias in other media embraced the fierce partisanship of Fox, I guess it just shows they didn't want objectivity. They wanted a press that was on their side.

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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I don't disagree with you at all and I don't disagree with David's post #38. I just don't want this false equivalency attributed to me as David seems to want.
    When I quoted you, I did so to build on what you say, not argue with it. So I wasn't addressing you, as the 'apologists' last line hinted. My mistake. Sorry for the confusion.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Try "cad".
    Perhaps. It seems a bit soft to me, but not a bad start.

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    When I quoted you, I did so to build on what you say, not argue with it. So I wasn't addressing you, as the 'apologists' last line hinted. My mistake. Sorry for the confusion.
    Thank you.

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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    .........



    Thank you.
    You're purely welcome.

    Now... as a member of the public... do you feel no remorse for helping to kill Mr. Ailes? <G>
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    You're purely welcome.

    Now... as a member of the public... do you feel no remorse for helping to kill Mr. Ailes? <G>
    Well, people like him embrace their desire for power and money when they fail to get love, or so the amateur psychologist in me believes. If he died because I could not love him adequately, I confess I cannot find much remorse in me. He did a lot of harm and hurt a lot of people. He left a lot of work for the rest of us to fix what he broke.

    So, I guess the answer is no. I am trying to feel sorry for his wife who seems to feel he was a wonderful man.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Bill O'Reilly: public hatred killed R. Ailes

    It's reassuring to hear that the apple didn't fall far from the tree --


    Roger Ailes' Son Says He's 'Coming After' Those Who 'Betrayed' His Late Father

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/roger-ail...162402675.html


    During the Saturday funeral service for Fox News’ founder and former CEO Roger Ailes, his son reportedly made a point to threaten the people who had “betrayed” his father.

    “I want all the people who betrayed my father to know that I’m coming after them, and hell is coming with me,” Zachary Ailes, 17, said during a speech at the service, according to Lifezette.

    Lifezette characterized the comments as relating to the ten women who have publicly accused Ailes of sexual harassment, including former Fox News hosts Gretchen Carlson, Megyn Kelly and Andrea Tantaros.

    Carlson filed a lawsuit in July 2016, detailing years of sexual harassment and discrimination. Since then, nine other women have come forward publicly with similar stories.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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