Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Portsmouth, NH. USA
    Posts
    27

    Default Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    Considering edge gluing 3/4" northern white cedar that is carvel planked on a 20 foot knockabout. Plan is to glue plank at rabbit, frames, transom and floors.

    My cedar is fully dried so the planks won't crack before she's launched. My concern is what will happen once I pull her out. Could the planks have swelled up while in to the point where it begins to buckle at the seams. If that happened, the only viable fix would be to fair up the hull where seasonal launch/haul cycles would eventually lead to a wooden boat ready for its own demise.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    1,468

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    If you edge glue it's no longer carvel planked and becomes mono. The expansion/contraction will rip it from it's timbers (ribs) or worse. There is a reason the old ways work on planks.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...58#post3996158

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Portsmouth, NH. USA
    Posts
    27

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    If you edge glue it's no longer carvel planked and becomes mono. The expansion/contraction will rip it from it's timbers (ribs) or worse. There is a reason the old ways work on planks.
    Maybe you should read this

    http://www.artisanboatworks.com/wp-c...king_FINAL.pdf

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Portsmouth, NH. USA
    Posts
    27

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    se pa (Bristol PA)
    Posts
    1,468

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    No thanks.. if it scares rather then inspires I stay away and go with known and well established methods.

    quote;
    "My concern is what will happen once I pull her out. Could the planks have swelled up while in to the point where it begins to buckle at the seams. If that happened, the only viable fix would be to fair up the hull where seasonal launch/haul cycles would eventually lead to a wooden boat ready for its own demise."

    My opinion hasn't changed. You must have doubts if you are posting about the wisdom in such builds. If I were to build again it would be traditional or encapsulated strip.

    Build it! wish you well!
    Last edited by DeniseO30; 05-14-2017 at 06:50 PM.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...58#post3996158

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    12,563

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    The planks may buckle, the frames may break, the planks may split, the glue seams may open. Or they may not.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    huntington, VT
    Posts
    92

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    His boats are beautiful, and reportedly the workmanship excellent.
    Still 9 years is a relatively short test of the technique. But it's encouraging that no marked failures as of yet.
    white cedar is remarkable stuff and certainly less prone to compression set than many species
    If I were to try it, I would want to stack the deck as much as possible....quartersawn planks, at least below waterline. Awfully hard to get in white cedar but not impossible.
    My instinct is the technique would be safer and more useful with a trailered boat that never gets to fully swell/ moisture cycle

    I wouldn't worry about sanding off a bit of swelling at seams....it will only happen once or twice. That's not going to be what causes "early demise"

    Having spent much of my career repairing old wooden boats, This idea of not needing large repairs in future is hard to buy...
    A dry bilge helps tremendously, but sooner or later matainance slips or boats get neglected for a spell. Cutting out and replacing a plank wouldn't be too bad, but frame replacement is going to be tough without trashing the planks....

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    PNW, an island west of Seattle
    Posts
    1,098

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    What happens to the glued seam boat that is allowed to stay in the water throughout the year... and year after year? The planks will absorb a lot of water and expand. The stress will very likely cause the hull to blow outward.

    Jeff

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    12,563

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    Will the boat need heavier framing? Cedar can compress like a sponge.
    Maybe just strip plank her properly.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Marietta, GA
    Posts
    7,722

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    What size planks? Artisan is pretty specific that their method only works with thin planking, up to 5/8" or so.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Wellington, NZ
    Posts
    419

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    The article had some pretty specific rules that they were adhering to, and it did appear to make sense.
    They even addressed that their customers were driven by the desire for dry bilges.
    As the writer of the article details, the proof is in the finished articles gleaming in the shed.

    I have a hatch cover I made that shows how badly edge gluing 1/2" timber can go.
    I encapsulated it to try to rescue the situation, but it is now a leaner table attached to the door of my boatshed.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    41,164

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    The artisan method is really just a version of strip planking with wider and thicker planks. When you get to seriously thicker hull scantlings, like the great Argentine built yawl Cimmeron (40' yawl built at least fifty years ago) or the King's Cruiser (enlarged Folkboat) you can do tightseam, which is usually riveted to closely set light frames with plank edges touching, no caulking or glue.

    A variation on tightseam is to distress the plank edges to give some lightly crushed wood to swell.

    For completeness, I'll mention seam spline, where a soft wood spline is put in the seam instead of caulking. Usually done as a repair to aging carvel, the seams are routered to an even parallel sided width and a softwood spline is hammered in. Sometimes epoxied on one side, or both, or not.

    Really light strip planking with glue can become a monocoque structure and will need no frames, but the boats discussed here are not monocoque. The skin works, like carvel, as a compression structure and not as a monocoque unit.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Cundys Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    736

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    Very interesting topic. The Artisan boats are indeed beautiful and seem to last for a long time. I agree with Ian, it's strip planking with wider planks. Epoxy glued strip boats do not require especially heavy framing and I've never seen one in which planking broke away from the frames. Apparently the expansion force due to swelling is less than the crush strength of the wood/epoxy planking. Its 3/4 (not 5/8) inch that Artisan states as a planking thickness limit.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    connecticut
    Posts
    4

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    Trekka was carvel planked Western Red Cedar with edge glued seams. She was sailed to New Zealand before her hull was sheathed in fiberglass.

    Dave B.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    919

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    Weren't Concordia hawks planned on this manner. Right planking and no claulking?
    Cheers James

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Emerald Coast, FL
    Posts
    291

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    Perhaps contact the Nat or Ross or Brad at Gannon and Benjamin and pose your question. You are up in their neck of the woods and they will have ideas to share. Please report back their suggestion(s).

    Cheers
    Kent

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Bainbridge Island WA
    Posts
    1,922

    Default Re: Edge glued plank swelling to buckle up at joint

    Quote Originally Posted by dboboc View Post
    Trekka was carvel planked Western Red Cedar with edge glued seams. She was sailed to New Zealand before her hull was sheathed in fiberglass.

    Dave B.
    I looked up a few construction pictures of Trekka in the book by Mr. Guzzwell. 9/16" planking is mentioned, he doesn't comment on the width of the planks but none of them look to me to be much over 3 or 4" wide at the most. There are also "bent oak frames" on what appear to be 6-8" centers and the whole thing was riveted together with "...over three thousand fastenings.". He also said he regretted not 'glassing the hull to make it water tight from the start.

    I'm currently sailing a glued-lap plywood boat so it's not like I don't trust modern adhesives but I've seen enough glue joints in dimensional timber fail to leave this particular experiment to others.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •