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Thread: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

  1. #1
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    Default Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    Hello.

    I need some sand-able thickened epoxy for a overhead and vertical gap filling repair and hoped I could add some micro balloons and colloidal silica to a good brand of epoxy, probably west systems, to get the same gap filling non sag consistency of Six10 epoxy without the high price. But after reading this..

    "Six10 adhesive gets it's gel character from a chemical interaction meaning, it is not simply thickened. This chemical interaction gives Six10 a property known as shear thinning. When a shear load in applied to the material the viscosity lowers and when the shear load is removed it returns to a non-sag gel. the act of dispensing it is the shear load needed".


    Has me second guessing whether I really can create the same non sagging consistency for my self..

    Yes, I have limited experience with epoxy.

    Can anyone suggest a recipe for frosting/peanut butter consistency no sag epoxy? Or is this Six10 in a league on its own?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    I'm not sure what they're talking about in their mumbo-jumbo (which is obviously aimed more to dazzle the reader than to educate him) but I've been working with epoxy resin since 1970 (sculpture major) and with epoxy resins formulated for boatbuilding since they first came on the market (mid 1970s). There are certainly some differences in the various brands and formulas, but I'm not aware of anybody's product that is "in a league of its own". There are some excellent resins available from several sources and they can all be mixed with fillers to make a no-sag product that works just fine.

    Non-sagging is simply a matter of getting enough filler in the mixture - and it usually means a mix with a lot more filler than resin. The best thing to do is to make a few sample batches on scrap material, while keeping track of how much powder you are adding. With WEST, it isn't unusual to start with a single shot out of the pumps and then load in six or seven heaping spoonfuls of filler powder like 407 to get to a thickness that won't sag. A blob of it should hold its shape throughout the hardening process without sagging or pooling. If it does sag, you need more filler. Once you have arrived at a formula that cures without sagging, just match that ratio in future batches.

    Your proposed mix is a bit strange, as you're mixing an easy sanding filler (microballoons) with one that is hard to sand (colloidal silica). If the gap is pretty stable, you could probably ditch the colloidal from the mix and just end up with an easy sanding balloon fill. If the gap is not stable and prone to some sort of movement, either fill would probably eventually crack, and G-Flex epoxy might make a lot more sense.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    I think (and I'm merely guessing here) that once again the marketing guys have run amok. What they most probably mean is that Thixo is not simply thickened resins, rather the addition of the filler makes the mix thixotropic; a point discussed at length in WEST System's book.

    Todd, on the other hand, is not running amok: he is exactly right. The Colloidal is not easy to sand, the microballoons are. I'm not exactly sure of the specifics of your repair. The microballoons will add little strength. Gravity will be working against you, packing tape might help keep it in place until the epoxy cures. All that I can tell you is that yes, you can mix something together that will do the same thing (and may even be better suited to what you're trying to do), but I don't know enough about it to help more.
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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    I've been using Fasco 110. It comes in buckets and is a little thicker than Vaseline.
    I mix my filler into it and then spoon it into a large syringe to make small fillets.
    By masking both sides of the fillet and coming back a few hours later with a small bowl of denatured alcohol, I can dip my gloved fingers into the alcohol and smooth the fillets so that they need virtually no sanding.

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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    Thanks everyone.

    What caught my eye on the six10, was the video that showed a 3/8" bead applied to a wall and not sag, yet come out of a caulk gun easily.

    I have a E350 van from Florida which the roof gutter rusted away over the rear doors.. What I want is a epoxy body filler the consistency of bondo glass which I can apply sand and paint and has a bit of strength. But will stick better, not shrink as much and and last longer than bondo glass.

    I'm having a hard time finding much information about epoxy autobody work is why I'm asking here.. But even though this is a work van.. Iv installed a cummins engine and it will be on the road until the body rots away, then probably receive a new body from a clean donor as long as these engines run.

    I'm envisioning either a piece of metal bent to the correct shape and epoxied on.. Or if the epoxy filler is non sagging, fill the entire area to make it look like the gutter is still there. The gutter failed and rusted away because there are no weep holes so filling the gutter space with epoxy to prevent pooling is fine for me but would require allot of epoxy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salt On The Brain View Post
    I've been using Fasco 110. It comes in buckets and is a little thicker than Vaseline.
    For the amount of epoxy I need, Fasco 110 looks economical. Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    Non-sagging is simply a matter of getting enough filler in the mixture - and it usually means a mix with a lot more filler than resin.
    Agreed.. But the marketing for six10 says it doesn't rely on fillers.. Just shear thinning.. I dont think any other epoxy has this claim.. But Im not sure if Six10 is sandable like bondo glass.

    So maybe the Fasco 110 with micro ballons and milled fiberglass for strength? Thanks again!







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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    Agreed.. But the marketing for six10 says it doesn't rely on fillers.. Just shear thinning.. I dont think any other epoxy has this claim.
    You can certainly formulate epoxy resin to various levels of viscosity, from pretty thin to extra thick. The end result is that extra thick has no advantage over a more typical resin/filler mixture. In fact, it's more likely a disadvantage, since being able to dictate your own filler gives you drastically more ability to tailor the mixture's strength, sandability, moisture resistance, etc. to the task at hand. Don't fall for a bunch of doubletalk hype.

    edit: You should, by the way, be bonding your thickened filler to a fresh layer of unfilled epoxy. It doesn't need to be thick (deep) and it can actually be sanded into the old surface for the best and cleanest bond, but that light layer of neat resin/hardener will often greatly improve the bond strength of what comes next.

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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    You should, by the way, be bonding your thickened filler to a fresh layer of unfilled epoxy. It doesn't need to be thick (deep) and it can actually be sanded into the old surface for the best and cleanest bond, but that light layer of neat resin/hardener will often greatly improve the bond strength of what comes next.
    Thanks for that Todd. I'll brush on unfilled epoxy after the steel is roughed up and cleaned with wax and grease remover before I continue.. And then do a chemical bond within a few hours instead of mechanical. Is blush a concern with raka 350 hardener when doing a chemical bond?

    As far as the advantages and disadvantages.. The advantage of extra thick for me is the ability to defy gravity. If I can get the mixture to stand up straight 1/2", I wont have to fabricate the metal replacement panel. But if that consistency makes the filler brittle or whatever.. That's why I'm asking.

    Multiple thickened layers chemically bonded smoothed and finished off with a flat board covered with poly maybe?

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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    You can still get a chemical bond with most epoxy up to a week after the initial application. However, the whole chemical bond thing (and its importance) has been blown way out of proportion and spread around like an unsubstantiated rumor - mostly by folks who don't know what they're talking about. Don't get too hung up on it. As for the Raka, I haven't used that resin and can't tell you if it blushes or not. Blush is another topic which has been blown way out of proportion. Put your initial, neat coat on and as soon as it is stiff enough that you won't smear it, put on your filler coat. With reasonably rapid recoating, blush won't be a problem. If you do have to wait overnight or a couple days, wipe it down with a scotchbrite and water before adding the fill layers.

    Defying gravity is simply a matter of pre-testing your mix formula until it works and then sticking with those ratios. Half an inch is no big deal, but it is critical to watch your test samples through the entire cure. Sometimes you can mix one that looks good and peaks nicely, yet an hour later it has sagged into a pool because your formula didn't have enough filler.

    Any normal epoxy is going to be fairly brittle in thick applications unless it's packed with some sort of fibers or other stuff to reinforce it (like the rerods in concrete). You may want to sacrifice a bit of the easy sanding and throw in some chopped glassfibers if you need maximum strength (use scissors and a scrap of fiberglass cloth or roving - cut strands 1/8"-1/4" long to mix with your filler powder).

    Another thing that works pretty well is a heavy concentration of graphite powder mixed into the resin. The end result is plastic very close to the stuff they mold "graphite" fishing reel bodies from. They're pretty tough.

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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    We use WEST 6 10 in our kit build classes, its a significant time saver in that there is no mixing, it doesn't sag, makes a really good joint and with the tube and caulking gun application is great for applying long beads when fitting lap joint planks.

    I get that its a chemically produced thixotrope, its non sag is not due to being mixed with a fibre or microballoons so it comes through the nozzle from the tube very easily. I like it a lot.

    John Welsford
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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    The safety data sheet for 610 says it contains >1% powder that is a nuisance dust and not a hazmat. They also describe thixotropy badly. No magic, just lots of Cab-O-Sil.

    The mumbo jumbo adds up to either fumed silica or a clay type material that is used as a thixotrope. Thixotropic means that the stuff is a liquid that acts like a solid until it is pushed hard enough to get it moving, but once it starts moving, it moves fairly easily. A short time after you stop pushing, it thickens up again. In other words, copied from the link, a thixotrope is an additive that is designed to generate a shear thinning rheology with a delayed recovery in viscosity as the shear is relaxed.

    If I had to repair that rain gutter, I would not depend on a powder filled resin. The glass fiber fill that Todd suggested would be strong, but would also be hard to sculpt and sand. I would use fiberglass cloth several layers thick. If you can get at the inside surface and sandblast the rust away leaving the swiss cheese that used to be the roof, it makes a nice support for the fiberglass if it is still the same shape as the roof was before. If the holes are too big, the glass will sag a bit and need more filler. some aluminum window screen can help support the fiber glass if there are big holes. It is best to lay up a largish patch on the inside and fair up the outside with the filler. I've stuffed patches laid up on aluminum foil or plastic sheet into some tight spots. You put the wet sticky mess on a nice flat piece of foil, then stuff it in. You only have to touch the dry back side, so when you take your hand or stick out, the glass doesn't come with it. I might even squirt some of that canned foam insulation in the cavities to hold the glass until it sets.

    If you are trying to sculpt a rain gutter that was a curved metal flange, you need glass cloth or a metal part to bond to the roof. It would be easier to patch the holes first and make a fairly smooth hard surface, then add the gutter. The glass cloth should be several layers thick, totaling 30 to 60 ounces of glass (5- 10 layers of 6oz, or 3-6 layers of 10 oz) It will not hold its shape without a form, so you will have to make a removable support that will hold the glass until the resin sets up. Epoxy will not dissolve styrofoam, so that is a possibility. You can use styrofoam as a support, then cut, scrape or dig out the big chunks, then wash away the rest with some acetone. The glass flange might be easier to make oversized and trimmed to the final size. The only reason that I would really want to use epoxy here would be if I was using a styrofoam form. Polyester will dissolve styrofoam.

    First clean the metal. Remove all paint until you find unrusted metal or it will not stop rusting away. Treat with something like POR 15 zinc phosphate treatment. Prime, then start in on the fillers and glass. It wants to rust and you have to beat it over the head to stop it.

    No please tell us that you will tow a wooden boat behind the van so we will feel better about talking steel bodywork on a wood boat forum.
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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Now please tell us that you will tow a wooden boat behind the van so we will feel better about talking steel bodywork on a wood boat forum.
    LOL thanks Dave and everyone.. Yes I really do need to repair my dads klepper after the cummins van.

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    First clean the metal. Remove all paint until you find unrusted metal or it will not stop rusting away. Treat with something like POR 15 zinc phosphate treatment. Prime, then start in on the fillers and glass. It wants to rust and you have to beat it over the head to stop it.
    Prime the metal? Wouldn't the epoxy adhesion be limited by the adhesion strength of the primer?

    After reading this article called "Epoxy or No Epoxy Under Filler".. I was convinced epoxy applied to the metal would have more adhesion strength than priming first.



    Last edited by rerod; 04-17-2017 at 12:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    Primer? Adhesion and corrosion are two different animals. rust will eat it's way under the epoxy just like those expanding circles of rust on an old car. When I used a rust converter on the sand blasted network of metal that was the floor of my Corvair, I could still see the metal almost unchanged through the polyester and glass for several years until I sold it. When I skipped that step on my Citation, the metal was peeling off until the trans bit the dust.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Primer? Adhesion and corrosion are two different animals. rust will eat it's way under the epoxy just like those expanding circles of rust on an old car. When I used a rust converter on the sand blasted network of metal that was the floor of my Corvair, I could still see the metal almost unchanged through the polyester and glass for several years until I sold it. When I skipped that step on my Citation, the metal was peeling off until the trans bit the dust.
    Yes primer.. You said "Treat with POR-15 Metal Prep and Prime, then start in on the fillers and glass.

    I found another article where Tom Pawlak epoxied his parts on to bare metal.

    Auto body repairs With WEST SYSTEM® Epoxy
    Last edited by rerod; 04-17-2017 at 06:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    I'm not sure what they're talking about in their mumbo-jumbo (which is obviously aimed more to dazzle the reader than to educate him).
    I found an epoxy that while costs triple , sounds amazing. Here are the directions from the can:

    Double, double toil and trouble;

    Fire burn and caldron bubble.

    Fillet of a fenny snake,

    In the caldron boil and bake;

    Eye of newt and toe of frog,

    Wool of bat and tongue of dog,

    Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,

    Lizard's leg and howlet's wing,

    For a charm of powerful trouble,

    Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.



    Double, double toil and trouble;

    Fire burn and caldron bubble.

    Cool it with a baboon's blood,

    Then the charm is firm and good.

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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    No...... actually that one is from a can of CPES.

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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    Haha! Good point! I just received your book and enjoying it very much! Sailing canoe pics to follow soon...

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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark O. View Post
    I found an epoxy that while costs triple , sounds amazing. Here are the directions from the can:

    Double, double toil and trouble;
    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    No...... actually that one is from a can of CPES.


    Quote Originally Posted by rerod View Post
    Yes primer.. You said "Treat with POR-15 Metal Prep and Prime, then start in on the fillers and glass.

    I found another article where Tom Pawlak epoxied his parts on to bare metal.

    Auto body repairs With WEST SYSTEM® Epoxy
    West has a lot of experience coating wood. They are not experts at coating steel. If there is nothing on the metal surface that inhibits corrosion, the rust will work its way under the coating. I have seen plenty of pull off adhesion testing on epoxy metal primers in the 2000 - 3000 psi range.

    Applying an adhesive direct to metal with no corrosion inhibiting primer is an invitation to underfilm corrosion. http://www.materialsperformance.com/...c-delamination

    I clicked on your pictures and looked at the larger image that opened up. From the looks of that gap, any filler you put in there will crack. I think you need to talk to a body shop about a weld repair.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: Recipe for Six10 thickened Thixo epoxy?

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post

    I clicked on your pictures and looked at the larger image that opened up. From the looks of that gap, any filler you put in there will crack. I think you need to talk to a body shop about a weld repair.
    Thanks Dave. But I cant find the CORROSION 2014 paper no. 4271, “Underfilm Corrosion Creep and Cathodic Delamination: Under the Microscope,” by C. Reed.

    I asked for estimates from three different local body shops, but none of them want to touch it. One of them told me to do a body swap.

    The van had body filler already in that area when I bought it which lasted more than 10 years. But I started to see tell tail signs it was rusting underneath.

    I know anything short of welding in new metal will not last but no one makes replacement metal. If I can get another 10 years before it starts to pop again I will be happy.

    West systems suggested I use Gflex epoxy.

    I think we all agree epoxy has to be superior to bondo glass?? link



    My plan is to make a female mold of the gutter and lay it up. Then install it and fill the gutter area with epoxy completely covering that seam.
    Last edited by rerod; 04-20-2017 at 07:35 AM.

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