The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

[skaraborgcraft]

I may try my hand at practicing the discipline required to build a boat to a set build schedule.

That will usually end with more stress and less quality work than can be achieved in a no rush "amatuer" mode. Even big builds in commercial yards with many workers often go way over expected delivery dates.

There is a lot of human variables to come to any definate conclusion. Having restored and fitted out bigger boats that i was usually living and cruising on, time to completion was not a massive factor if you was already living on the boat, followed by a 12-24 month cruise. Now living ashore and having workshop space, i have enjoyed building a small boat every winter/spring for the last 4 years for use on an inland lake. With prior offshore cruising in a basic boat, i would most certainly build to go that way again, 26ft, inboard diesel, simple rig, shallow draught, trailable but offshore capable for summer use in the North Atlantic. A permenent live aboard boat is another level of home comforts way and above what is needed to just get somewhere and spend a few months afloat.....at least from my perspective, and a completely different budget.
I have also watched too many people spend years and years, to get there boat "perfect" for their journey, and then other "life-stuff" gets in the way, and they never go. From that standpoint, im all in favour of go with what you can afford to suit your needs, but just go. Those that want to spend 20 years building a masterpiece of exotic joinery while dreaming of cruising, thats ok too.

[heimlaga]

Now that would be a design and build worth watching ! Do you have a design in mind yet ?

No. I am too busy struggling to get out of poverty to have time and money on hand for a boat. Growing trees and galvanized nails are cheap but building a good boat takes time and fr many years ahead all my work capacity will go into filling more urgent needs.

This type of boats were always built by eye without any kind of drawings. There are no drawings to be found anywhere and I am unable to read a boat drawing. I would just look for an old rotten fishing boat with a good hull shape and use my tractor to hauli it home and keep it besides to new build so I can check the shape of every plank.

[webishop14]

That will usually end with more stress and less quality work than can be achieved in a no rush "amatuer" mode. Even big builds in commercial yards with many workers often go way over expected delivery dates.

Your point is well taken. What I omitted was that I have on hand a web posting of how to build the design I have in mind in one week. I'm thinking of setting a 4 week delivery date, with a task time-line. I do agree with you: I have been, and will likely always be, of a mind to do a task properly, regardless of the schedule set. "If you don't have time to do the job right the first time, when will you have time to to set it right?" My point will be to apply myself to a set work schedule. Not permitting myself to lie in bed until 9:00 am as if I were retired and had nothing to do.

[amish rob]

I double compromised. Well, for little sailing cruisers.

I was going to build a "simple" boat to sail around and beach cruise on while I built a more complex one to cruise a bit more extensively.

Then, I decided to build a MORE simple beachcruiser, and a more complicated follow up. The beachcruiser is near done, and the more complex boat changed. It's going to be even more complex, now, but a better boat for an old guy to putter around on. I mean, one day I hope to be a real old man, with an entirely grey beard. Then I'll just go putter on my yawl, and leave the world alone.

I have never owned a boat I didn't build, so I don't know which I like more. I like bofe em.

Peace,
Robert

[jpatrick]

The mantra that John began this discussion with is: "go small, go simple, go now." I believe this statement presupposes the ideal outcome is to "go" in the sense of going voyaging, as did the Pardeys. I also think that this is not the overriding goal for most of the people who want to build a boat. Their goals are not so life altering and defining. Most, probably, just want to enjoy some time building something useful, and then having a good time on the water. Some, like myself, want to do this process again and again. The going means going out to the shop, putting in some time building, then going sailing/rowing/boating. It really matters not a whit if the boat is large or small. It is the process, the act of living a boating life that is meaningful. I believe that once one comes to grips with this idea, one will realize that there really is no tradeoff. It's all good.

Jeff

[Lugalong]

For some here, the question on whether to go smaller, more simple and sooner, assumes there is a choice in the building space to build bigger.
But when available building space dictates dimensions, the answer is simple, especially when materials technology determines the process.
If dry wood and glue are considered (like plywood and epoxy), then a sheltered building environment obviously imposes more restrictions than sawn and fastened natural wood.
Even building edge nailed strips glued with PU, might allow working out in the open, to avoid boat size limits.
On this line of thought; I had a plan at one stage, to build an edge nailed strip wood hull out in the open, where wetted strip edges are not a bad thing for PU glue (wetting the wood when applying the glue is normal procedure).
Once the hull is built, plywood decks are possibly laid when weather windows allow, and likewise with glass sheathing. But the waiting time for wood to dry out between tasks, makes any build inside a shop, much more appealing and helps toward answering the ‘go now’ part of the plan.
So, going small for reason of having efficient build conditions is a no brainer.
Along with going small, is the possible reduction of weight and bulk, as a result of lamination, compared to scantlings associated with plank on frame construction.

[Phil Y]

So really there is no conundrum. If you are happy to cruise in a scamp, or to ride a bicycle around Europe, then you'd be crazy to set out to build an 80 foot expedition yacht, or to buy a motor home. And vice versa. A simple case of horses for courses. Of course there are many stories of people who have bought big boats and found them too big, too expensive etc. just as there are those who have built or bought small boats and found them too small, too wet, too physical and uncomfortable. In that sense there is always the conundrum of working out what suits us, and what is the best compromise. My point though, to paraphrase Peter above, is that it's not just about whether to go big and go sailing later, or go small and go sailing now. The big/small choice also neccesarily involves a choice about very different types of sailing and living.

[Phil Y]

Re reading Johns OP, there is of course the other question he raised, are you building for the sake of building, or building to go sailing? We frequently see that question here. And often the answer is that if you want to get out sailing quickly and/or cheaply, go buy a used boat. If you are building for the joy of building, go ahead and build. And work out whether a quick build or a complex and probably traditional build is the experience you want. I am fascinated by the difference between two particular contributors to this thread. Peter has a recent diagnosis of brain cancer, and is setting out on a substantial build, an affirmation of life. Frank has a recent terminal diagnosis, so he plans on a quick build, no half built projects to be left in the shed when he goes. I can only wish both the very best.

[PeterSibley]

Thanks Phil.

[JimConlin]

If you want to go sailing, buy an existing boat. There are good boats cheap.
If you want to build something exquisite, know it'll take a long time.
Best to buy a useful boat first.

I regret selling Magic before starting Damfino.

[stromborg]

I've been thinking a bit about where I fit in along the line from small to big and maybe I'm just an outlier.

15 or so years ago I went looking for a small house on a bit of land so I could build a shop to make stuff. Not just boats, though they were on the list of neat things I thought I could do in a nice shop. Fast forward a few years and the shop was done so I restored an old car and built a little boat to see what it was like with the idea that maybe I'd one day build myself a bigger one with enough creature comforts to stay out for extended periods of time. That first boat was good so I built another slightly larger boat to learn a few more things that helped build the next (bigger again) and current boat that I plan on sailing for a number of years while I build another house and then get going on what I view as my thesis project, a traditional carvel planked cruiser in the 24-26 foot range. (Peter and I have been looking at the same class of boats for a few years now). For me it is as much about the journey from lumber yard to hull, from bronze ingot to custom hardware and sheets of sail cloth to sail as it is about that magic moment when it all comes together as this thing I've built catches the breeze, heels over and runs out of the harbor with a bone in her teeth.

"Hello, my name is Steve and I'm a serial builder."

[john welsford]

Some of the discussion here raises another point, "if you were to choose the "go small, go simple, go now" option, what would be your minimums for accommodation".
I'll start a new thread for that one.

John Welsford

[PeterSibley]

That would be a good thread too John.

[tink]

More and small, I work to mantra the fastest way up wind is on the back of a car, or motor home. There are so many great small boats to build that you could own multiple small boats, built one get out there, be building a second one at the same time. Develop and improve the first as you sail it. Learn from the building and using of the first - it is just a cycle.

With the changeable British weather it is good to look at the forecast and say - today is a sailing day so that is what I will do or I not going out there and have a few hours in the boat shed.

My boats are always quick builds with a working finish that way they get used, abused and modified without any worries.
If I wanted a bigger boat I would buy something first just to figure out what I actually want. To spend years and $$$ building a boat with know EXACTLY what you want seams like a fools errand to me. If it was big it would be simple.

I also prefer my own designs, that way you can be dreaming and scheming about boats at times when you can't build or sail.

[OldDominionWB]

Beauty is a huge consideration for me. If the boat is for myself, I have a hard time building to a design that I don't find beautiful. Even if the boat is for somebody else, I still have a hard time building a design that I don't find really pretty.

"Beauty" should not be confused with "complicated." I've seen a lot of beautiful flatiron skiffs and other really simple boats. Likewise, I've seen plenty of big complicated builds that were butt ugly. Big, little, simple, complex, it's all satisfying if I feel like the boat I've built is really pretty.

Perhaps the ultimate is a beautiful boat that is simple to build and does what it's meant to do really well. Maybe that's why I love deadrise's so much.

[john welsford]

I've been thinking a bit about where I fit in along the line from small to big and maybe I'm just an outlier.

15 or so years ago I went looking for a small house on a bit of land so I could build a shop to make stuff. Not just boats, though they were on the list of neat things I thought I could do in a nice shop. Fast forward a few years and the shop was done so I restored an old car and built a little boat to see what it was like with the idea that maybe I'd one day build myself a bigger one with enough creature comforts to stay out for extended periods of time. That first boat was good so I built another slightly larger boat to learn a few more things that helped build the next (bigger again) and current boat that I plan on sailing for a number of years while I build another house and then get going on what I view as my thesis project, a traditional carvel planked cruiser in the 24-26 foot range. (Peter and I have been looking at the same class of boats for a few years now). For me it is as much about the journey from lumber yard to hull, from bronze ingot to custom hardware and sheets of sail cloth to sail as it is about that magic moment when it all comes together as this thing I've built catches the breeze, heels over and runs out of the harbor with a bone in her teeth.

"Hello, my name is Steve and I'm a serial builder."

My dream is "Long driveway, small house, big shed". I'd add to that, "near the water".

John Welsford

[tink]

My dream is "Long driveway, small house, big shed". I'd add to that, "near the water".

John Welsford

like, I often think that too much of our houses are given over to life's peripheries, personally I would turn most our house into a workshop and design studio. Dry, stable, warm environment for boat building nice.

[Andrew2]

like, I often think that too much of our houses are given over to life's peripheries, personally I would turn most our house into a workshop and design studio. Dry, stable, warm environment for boat building nice.

Ah; I did try that idea. A sort of big area for projects, with the living bit on two levels at one end. Bustards of planning refused it. Not because of the idea, but because they considered it agricultural land. So I built a wooden house which did not need approval. A few years later, they bought it off me to build a football stadium. So much for the agricultural bit.

Cors, did I get paid? NO. They swopped another bit of land with planning approval. Then switched that for something else.
A lesson on dealing with corrupt administrations. One of the reasons I no longer live there.
A2

[tink]

Not a good story A2

[PeterSibley]

My dream is "Long driveway, small house, big shed". I'd add to that, "near the water".

John Welsford

I have that apart from the near water part..... unless you count a farm dam.

[stromborg]

I can see a bit of Rich Passage from my house. When they originally built this house it had a commanding view but since then the actual waterfront property owners have let the trees grow up and reduced my view to a peek-a-boo one that is better in winter than summer.

[john welsford]

like, I often think that too much of our houses are given over to life's peripheries, personally I would turn most our house into a workshop and design studio. Dry, stable, warm environment for boat building nice.

I live most of the time in a 40 ft x 12 ft motor cruiser. She has pressure hot and cold water, could be off grid with her big battery bank and solar panels supplementing the engine generators. I have refrigeration, comfortable accommodation, space for my drawing board and the ability to take my home anywhere on the water that takes my fancy.
But what makes it so good is that I have, as part of the deal for the private dock that I lease, a quite good sized workshop just a few steps away from the dock.
Between the two I have all that I need.
My wife is about to retire from her job as a forensic psyche nurse and start a private practice as a councillor for weight loss and accident rehab people, she's looking at having a mobile tiny house built so she can travel around her beat, is very comfortable living in a small space, her current home is 12 ft x 36 ft and she's looking forward to getting down to 8 ft x 18.
We tend to be over "housed", houses are, unless rented out like mine is, money sinks that dont earn anything, and are usually way bigger than we need, especially once the task of raising and housing the offspring is done.
Back to the op, we tend to do that with boats, get bigger and bigger as time goes on, and end up with a money sink that burns up time as well as funds. So, its been interesting and fun reading the input above, anyone else have thoughts on that?

John Welsford

[tink]

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Lugalong]

My dream is "Long driveway, small house, big shed". I'd add to that, "near the water".

John Welsford

That’s what I have spent a good bit of my life working for and now have it, but the story doesn’t end there.
I spoke with you a short while ago about plans for a boat small enough to build in a garage, and if I manage to hang on to some wood and tools, will be happy to make a new start.
Just need to find someone who want’s and can afford this small home with a fair size shed and private ramp down to the tidal creek leading out into the Pacific Ocean.

Just as well though, that I have this idea of a way to stretch the hull length when building in a garage, and then be able to cycle tow the craft to a public or boat club launch ramp into this same Whangarei harbour.

Extra hull length sure is worth having, if it does not come at the expense of much weight, even if at slightly more time in the building. But length that is still limited by garage imposed restrictions.
Saying this now that I realize how much better life could have been, had I previously known how to make more of building space restrictions and managed to achieve minima on boardl accommodation as well.

Before setting out on my quest to have a place to live and have ample workshop space, a sleeping bag and a room big enough to build a surfboard was not too bad a deal.
So, a basic home as base, and the ability to get out on the water for stretches of overnighting sounds like something to look forward to.

I know that not much more than 6ft of length is needed for sleeping, and this is way too short for boatspeed under human power even. Three times this length is definitely better, and so it then comes down to beam dimensions in determining how much boat is needed. Stability comes with more beam, and so does the weight…….unless we look at multihulls. This is where there is generally a parting of ways between sail and oar craft of mono or multi configuration. Specifically, multi’s don’t row’…… unless we introduce some lateral design thinking, and this is what is keeping me going. I haven’t been thinking of rowing, especially while living up this harbor channel, so, my plans of relocating have helped in expanding concepts of propulsion.

[Edward Pearson]

You can buy these canopies quite cheaply which are specifically designed to span between two shipping containers for agricultural sector to keep tractors etc. For boatbuilders...good ventilation. Powertools and materials in lockable spaces. Temporary shouldn't need as much planning.

[PeterSibley]

You'd want to tie that down very strongly Ed, that top section would provide a LOT of lift in a high wind ! I know, I lost a 50m x 8m greenhouse to a squall, it just pulled up and blew away. Other than that, a very useful space !

[Lugalong]

You'd want to tie that down very strongly Ed, that top section would provide a LOT of lift in a high wind ! I know, I lost a 50m x 8m greenhouse to a squall, it just pulled up and blew away. Other than that, a very useful space !

Yes, having tried one of those i suggest the containers be filled with enough rocks or something heavy to keep them down

[john welsford]

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I've got a kayak, use it sometimes but prefer a nice rowing boat, fixed seat, about 15 ft or so long.

John Welsford

[john welsford]

That’s what I have spent a good bit of my life working for and now have it, but the story doesn’t end there.
I spoke with you a short while ago about plans for a boat small enough to build in a garage, and if I manage to hang on to some wood and tools, will be happy to make a new start.
Just need to find someone who want’s and can afford this small home with a fair size shed and private ramp down to the tidal creek leading out into the Pacific Ocean.

Just as well though, that I have this idea of a way to stretch the hull length when building in a garage, and then be able to cycle tow the craft to a public or boat club launch ramp into this same Whangarei harbour.

Extra hull length sure is worth having, if it does not come at the expense of much weight, even if at slightly more time in the building. But length that is still limited by garage imposed restrictions.
Saying this now that I realize how much better life could have been, had I previously known how to make more of building space restrictions and managed to achieve minima on boardl accommodation as well.

Before setting out on my quest to have a place to live and have ample workshop space, a sleeping bag and a room big enough to build a surfboard was not too bad a deal.
So, a basic home as base, and the ability to get out on the water for stretches of overnighting sounds like something to look forward to.

I know that not much more than 6ft of length is needed for sleeping, and this is way too short for boatspeed under human power even. Three times this length is definitely better, and so it then comes down to beam dimensions in determining how much boat is needed. Stability comes with more beam, and so does the weight…….unless we look at multihulls. This is where there is generally a parting of ways between sail and oar craft of mono or multi configuration. Specifically, multi’s don’t row’…… unless we introduce some lateral design thinking, and this is what is keeping me going. I haven’t been thinking of rowing, especially while living up this harbor channel, so, my plans of relocating have helped in expanding concepts of propulsion.

Designing a nice cruiser that can be built within the confines of a single car garage is a challenge. If the customer can make some compromises, for example from gold plated taps in a dedicated multi head shower cubicle to a hand pump garden sprayer filled with warm water, the bather sitting on an upturned bucket in the cockpit, that sort of philosophy makes it possible to get all of the required functions within the space available.
That depends upon the people, I've had a woman come to visit who, after her first visit to my quite roomy ship, insisted on her husband bringing me to their hotel rather than coming aboard again. Another guest saw the little single bunk forward, climbed in and found the space so appealing that I thought that we'd have to pry her out with a crowbar.
So adequate comfort is a matter of perception as much as anything. For me, I'm ok with tenting on an open boat but must say that having sailed SCAMPs with that little raised cuddy at the forward end of the cockpit, I'm impressed with how it changes the feel of the boat. My current build, which is progressing painfully slowly at the moment, has a very similar layout.
Today I was in a "Marmot" shop looking at a wildly overpriced "bivysack" type sleeping bag/shelter that would work well in the self draining cockpit, the cuddy being large enough for me to have my head and shoulders under cover an arrangement like that would work in mild conditions.
With that shelter giving wind free space for a cooker, the tented cockpit being long and wide enough to lie down within, with four different seating positions when at the helm plus enough stability to sail while standing, I can see myself cruising for a month.
But beyond that I'd like a cabin a bit bigger than that on my 18 footer which has only just sitting headroom, only just a bunk space and not quite enough leg room. Having a cabin makes her cockpit a bit small, so for a really workable conventional layout cabin and cockpit boat I think 19 to 20 ft is around the changeover point where a cabin boat becomes more attractive than an open boat for extended time on board.
I must admit that my long Steps is close to 20 ft but lot of that is taken up by an extended after deck, she's a fine ended boat due to the need to keep her slippery for rowing, but that still leaves 11 ft for cockpit.
A few years back I had a letter, snail mail no less, and I enjoy those, from a couple in northern New York state. For all their lives together he had dreamed of building himself a boat and going sailing. They'd sailed dinghies at a local club as teens, in fact they'd me there, but jobs, kids, mortgage and all that stuff had interfered. But with the offspring sprung out the door, the mortgage paid off and retirement in view just over the temporal horizon they'd decided that he should start.
The building space was to be "his" half of a fairly roomy double garage, with her car outside during the day.
There were lots of other issues to work through, budget, skills and tools, the planned voyage ( ICW, mostly solo with her coming to visit now and again, 12 months from one end to the other then trailer home) .
I got the draft work done and then she took the opportunity of a job teaching English in a far away country so they've gone there. But the concept was such an interesting one that I keep pulling the drawings out and mulling over them.
I should finish them.

John Welsford

[Mark O.]

WOW, lotsa food for thought...

from basic philosophies to simple realities

for some it is a journey for others it is the means to an end

the common element is SATISFACTION

making the best of available resources

making the best of personal skills

learning new skills

keeping one's mind occupied

keeping one's body occupied

providing one's self with a vessel to attack the aquatic world

providing a vessel for others to use to attack the aquatic world

some are sneaking out after the house goes quiet for personal therapy

some have created a place to boldly goto for therapy

some take pleasure as they smell the wood

some take pleasure as they feel the wood

for some it is the art of fitting parts together to make a whole

for others it is the discovery of new materials & processes for the combination/assembly of components to an end

to some it is the work

to some it is the end product and where it will take him/her

WHY DO WE DO IT?

THERE IS NO SIMPLE ANSWER

BUTT, WE DO DO IT

sw

Well said and I totally agree! I would just add to the list... Finding new ways of making dumb faces, and Development of colorful language.

[artif]

Lot of good stuff here.
I will add though
Make sure your significant other is really really in agreement with (and interested in) a bigger boat and not just saying it to keep you happy.
Its difficult enough to do a big boat without the moaning of a another.
Or stay single....much easier (hmmm tempting)

[swoody126]

Well said and I totally agree! I would just add to the list... Finding new ways of making dumb faces, and Development of colorful language.

Mark, i thought my "factory dumb face" would be sufficient & having begun my life of semi-gainful employment(outside family responsibilities) in the construction trades acquainted me w/ a plethora of colourful language ;-)

thanks

sw

[Rigadog]

Lot of good stuff here.
I will add though
Make sure your significant other is really really in agreement with (and interested in) a bigger boat and not just saying it to keep you happy.
Its difficult enough to do a big boat without the moaning of a another.
Or stay single....much easier (hmmm tempting)

I have the opposite issue. I had settled on a smaller build (Reuel Parker's Sea bright 23).


At 23 feet it's not a "live aboard" so the idea is to use it in the Bahamas as a beach cruiser and sleep on it sometimes and set up a beach camp others and then stop at an inn and rent a room from time to time to get cleaned up and refreshed. But my wife much prefers that I build the 33 foot version (I have plans for both) because is is larger, more comfortable/useful and is perceived as safer. I pointed out that I think it will cost 3 times as much to complete and take about 3 times as long. the 23 displaces about 1,600 lbs and the 33 footer about 7,000 lbs. So I am pretty torn. I like both for different reasons.

[Daniel Noyes]

r u taking this boat to Inauga island?

[Rigadog]

Probably leave it on Crooked Island because we have some friends there who are locals.