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Thread: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

  1. #1
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    Default The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Cross post from "Southern Cross" post. This was triggered by a comparison between a boat that forumite Peter Sibley is proposing, thats a full keeled 24 ft gaff yawl, and Souther Cross which is a 12 ft SCAMP with yawl rig and special high latitude features. I'd guess that Southern Cross is about 25% of the build of the larger boat, thats labour time, cost and actual volume.

    "I think that a thread based on the balance between a longer more costly build, the boat having more space on board, and a smaller less costly, quicker build which enables the builder to get out there sailing might be a fun discussion. SCAMP, is a bigger build than most 12 footers, and Southern Cross with her kevlar hull liner and all the special features even more than other SCAMPs but she's still a much quicker build than that lovely little ship of Peters, the question it raises, is, " Are you building a boat for the fun of building a boat, or are you building to go sailing in a boat that you've created>".

    I'll go and start the new thread now."

    So which would you do,? Lin Pardey said, "go small, go simple, go now". I'm inclined to agree.
    Of course its easiest to just go and buy a boat thats ready to go, but thats not what this thread is about.


    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    One of the questions I always ask a client who comes asking about a new boat is: Are you primarily interested in the boatbuilding... or the use of the boat when it's done... or both, in what proportions? Of course a new builder isn't going to know precisely, but this is a good place to start, when combined with other considerations.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    I appreciate the above John but I like building and having nearly finished my Selway Fisher JIM I've commissioned Antonio Dias to complete his Katherine Ann proposal that she might become Kathleen Gee ( that being my late Mother's name).

    There seems little comparison between the two vessels in terms of project size , cost or even ability to carry a sailor across the globe. Scamp is obviously a remarkable small boat design but that isn't the point of this thread.

    I like building so I was looking for a project to enjoy and the size, complexity, cost and length of the project is not a disadvantage, just part of the project.

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I appreciate the above John but I like building and having nearly finished my Selway Fisher JIM I've commissioned Antonio Dias to complete his Katherine Ann proposal that she might become Kathleen Gee ( that being my late Mother's name).

    There seems little comparison between the two vessels in terms of project size , cost or even ability to carry a sailor across the globe. Scamp is obviously a remarkable small boat design but that isn't the point of this thread.

    I like building so I was looking for a project to enjoy and the size, complexity, cost and length of the project is not a disadvantage, just part of the project.

    I thought that would be the case for you, time out there in the workshop building are special days, ones that make your life worthwhile. Boatbuilding and sailing are two very different but connected hobbies, I've one client who's busy building number 7, sails each for a few weeks then hands it on to a new owner. He's one who loves the time in the shop rather than being out on the water.

    So thats a consideration in the choice of what to build, how about others?

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    My build is part of the journey. She's much too big to be even close to go small go simple go now. She's a retirement project as well as a comfortable place to live when I retire and have her complete. She may never be finished in my lifetime but I'm ok with that.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    I thought that would be the case for you, time out there in the workshop building are special days, ones that make your life worthwhile. Boatbuilding and sailing are two very different but connected hobbies, I've one client who's busy building number 7, sails each for a few weeks then hands it on to a new owner. He's one who loves the time in the shop rather than being out on the water.

    So thats a consideration in the choice of what to build, how about others?

    John Welsford
    I'll Weigh in from the other side. I love building, it is satisfying and fun. However I do not have the patience or resources to build anything big. Given the resources I'd still not be able to muster up the patience. Until I started with skin on frame I preferred nail and glue. Stitch and glue is too fussy(spooge, wait, sand, spooge, wait, sand...) and I hate sanding. Sanding is mentally painful to me. Build em quick, use them, change them or build something new. Instead of having a mega project I build a new boat every year or two. I do appreciate the work, personality and skill that goes into the big boats but not my cup of tea.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Having been given an (indefinate but in the foreseeable future ) notice of release from this realm (ok - i will save for another thread maybe) the "go now" part is in focus.
    So, the tempory () ply patch over the rot hole has been painted into permanency and mainte ance issues reduced to "wattle gemmy thru this one"
    I do t want any half-finished glory horrors cluttering my legacy.
    A bog-simple old ply boat has proved ideal to tart up with minimal effort to swan around in - both in the back waters - and at a soon-coming festival, then in 5 or 15 years can be allowed to retire gracelessly into dust whilst its soul soars.........
    Its all proved very liberating.
    Last edited by Frank!; 04-15-2017 at 08:31 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    There's a lot to be said for building big and simple, so that it actually gets finished.

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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    for me personally the beauty of a boat is the craft on the water, in it's element, blasting through the waves, a thing of beauty and joy... so the design, performance, aesthetics, and craftsmanship are all important to me regardless of the type.

    when I am building for myself I have fairly high standards learned working for a couple local boat shops and a limited amount of time and money, so a small, high quality craft is the way to go... that way I get to the good part.

    people say oh why dont you just buy a boat... try "just buying" an Alpha Dory!


  10. #10
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    My general preference is for long boats. Not fancy, not wide, not deep, not heavy, not elaborate, but long.

    I think it's possible to build long but simple, although personally I haven't done it yet.

    Drake moves through the water with simple grace; long and skinny and shallow draft. Sailing her for 17 years has educated me a bit.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    I have plans for several boats but Gartside's Sjogin II and III top the list. I'm opting for SIII as my next build. It is 2' shorter than SII but is almost half the displacement and estimated time to build, so much more doable for me. Maybe its an age thing but I think I enjoy my shop time as much or more as the sailing now, so SIII is a good compromise.
    Steve B
    TraditionalSmallCraft.com
    Rivus 16' Melonseed

    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

  12. #12
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank! View Post
    Having been given an (indefinate but in the foreseeable future ) notice of release from this realm (ok - i will save for another thread maybe) the "go now" part is in focus.
    So, the tempory () ply patch over the rot hole has been painted into permanency and mainte ance issues reduced to "wattle gemmy thru this one"
    I do t want any half-finished glory horrors cluttering my legacy.
    A bog-simple old ply boat has proved ideal to tart up with minimal effort to swan around in - both in the back waters - and at a soon-coming festival, then in 5 or 15 years can be allowed to retire gracelessly into dust whilst its soul soars.........
    Its all proved very liberating.
    Me too. A brain cancer, not that much fun but it does concentrate one's thoughts..
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  13. #13
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    I'm almost tempted to complete my current build then start on a classic carvel built traditionally styled sailing cruiser of about 25 ft and 1 1/2 tons. The sort of work that would use no epoxy, lots of red lead paint and copper fastenings, steam boxes and large heaps of fine shavings. I might never complete it but I sure would enjoy the work.
    My current build is mostly plywood, lots of glue ( not all epoxy) glass cloth and stainless steel screws. As a boat I'm very much looking forward to her launching and the adventures that I imagine I'll have in her, but the building, while enjoyable, is not as relaxing and fulfilling as the first proposal.

    Life gets in the way sometimes, so the quicker build is the choice, for now.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    My build requirements are specific , glued construction so I can sheath with glass cloth and epoxy for worm protection and dry storage. Our worms in subtropical waters are voracious !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Good questions raised in this post and I suspect no right answers but still satisfying to read the varying perspectives. (My congratulations by the way to those of you with courage to face "expiration dates" with a steam on ahead attitude.) I'm relatively young with young children (currently 4 and 2) so my perspective is equal parts journey for them and for me. I enjoy having them take part in building projects and having them enjoy the fruits afterward. To some extent their limited attention spans suggest a faster build, but to some extent I also favor something that they and I can keep using for years to come - i.e., built well, and built large enough to grow into. I have no intention of exposing them to epoxy and while I use plywood plenty for knock-together projects, I much prefer solid wood - so a near-future build will see solid wood only, and very limited glueing (ideally without epoxy).

    I suppose I have patience in abundance, and prefer to hang onto things until the wheels fall off (recently let go of a 17 year old Toyota Camry with well over 325k miles on it) so I doubt I'll build a lot of boats. But once a boat or few are available for regular sailing and/or rowing, I could see myself engaged in a larger, long-term project which would be much more about the satisfaction of being in the shop, noodling the details, building up hand plane shavings, and daydreaming.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Big and simple.
    My Venus, Woodwind.
    When Pardeys said"go simple go now", then took the time to cast individual bronze floors I said to myself"wtf"?!.
    Strings for engine controls,stick stuck in a hose for sink faucet, bucket for poo, gaff rig.This is how simple works for me.
    Folks will spend more time sanding and painting a vessel than building it.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    It's what we do for pleasure, some of us enjoy the process too much !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    WOW, lotsa food for thought...

    from basic philosophies to simple realities

    for some it is a journey for others it is the means to an end

    the common element is SATISFACTION

    making the best of available resources

    making the best of personal skills

    learning new skills

    keeping one's mind occupied

    keeping one's body occupied

    providing one's self with a vessel to attack the aquatic world

    providing a vessel for others to use to attack the aquatic world

    some are sneaking out after the house goes quiet for personal therapy

    some have created a place to boldly goto for therapy

    some take pleasure as they smell the wood

    some take pleasure as they feel the wood

    for some it is the art of fitting parts together to make a whole

    for others it is the discovery of new materials & processes for the combination/assembly of components to an end

    to some it is the work

    to some it is the end product and where it will take him/her

    WHY DO WE DO IT?

    THERE IS NO SIMPLE ANSWER

    BUTT, WE DO DO IT

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  19. #19
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    Default The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    My Welsford Saturday Night Special only took me six months to build and I am just now beginning to explore its potential on the water. I'm also still playing around with rig options for it and tempted to add sails that would make it a yawl. I like to go out in my carport and lean on it and dream of ways of making it better or faster or prettier.

    At the same time I'm planning a character build of a Yangtze Pelican that would take a long forgotten design and bring it to life again in a new and colorful way. This boat although only 17' 5" long will have tremendous volume and will be styled as a Chinese junk. It will showcase two of my birdwing masts in such a way that hopefully will leave a lasting impression with anyone who sees it. Will it be a publicity stunt? Yes, I hope so. Will it be art? I'll give it my best shot. Will it be a blast to sail in the Texas 200? Most definitely!

    So I'll be working two directions at once - keeping my SNS for sailing thrills and spills and building my slow boat to China Yangtze Pelican Ketch for the art, the birdwing publicity, and especially for its bamboo sunshade that will help me survive the harsh conditions of the Texas 200. The Yangtze can also carry a heck of a lot of ice which is always good in South Texas in the middle of June. I guess I'm in it for the art, advertisement, and the adventure!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Last edited by kenjamin; 04-16-2017 at 08:51 AM.

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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    My Welsford Saturday Night Special only took me six months to build and I am just now beginning to explore its potential on the water. I'm also still playing around with rig options for it and tempted to add sails that would make it a yawl. I like to go out in my carport and lean on it and dream of ways of making it better or faster or prettier.

    At the same time I'm planning a character build of a Yangtze Pelican that would take a long forgotten design and bring it to life again in a new and colorful way. This boat although only 17' 5" long will have tremendous volume and will be styled as a Chinese junk. It will showcase two of my birdwing masts in such a way that hopefully will leave a lasting impression with anyone who sees it. Will it be a publicity stunt? Yes, I hope so. Will it be art? I'll give it my best shot. Will it be a blast to sail in the Texas 200? Most definitely!

    So I'll be working two directions at once - keeping my SNS for sailing thrills and spills and building my slow boat to China Yangtze Pelican Ketch for the art, the birdwing publicity, and especially for its bamboo sunshade that will help me survive the harsh conditions of the Texas 200. The Yangtze can also carry a heck of a lot of ice which is always good in South Texas in the middle of June. I guess I'm in it for the art, advertisement, and the adventure!


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

    SO...

    ! THE 200 is back on the front burner ?!?

    waz wondering how long it would take you ;-)

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  21. #21
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    Default

    Yeah, kind of funny how great misery can make for great comradery. But that Texas heat was something else! Like living in the nozzle of a hairdryer set on high! I might need a cool suit for that event. (no kidding!)


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Re:Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    John, is this discussion meant to be between various methods of building: stitch and glue, glued lap, traditional clinker, carvel, strip planked….etc? Or is it between the idea of building a small or simple boat vs. a large or complex boat… both built in the same method? Because it makes a difference and the two questions will lead to completely different answers.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    For me, swoody hit on most the reasons I took on the build that I did.

    In 2009 I decided I wanted to build a boat capable of going just about anywhere I would want to go. Just large enough for 2 people to live on and no bigger. After almost a year of research, on January 1st, 2009 I began construction on the North Sea 29 designed by Mark Smaalders of Orcas Island WA. It is a medium/heavy displacement gaff cutter, strip planked and cold molded.

    Except for a period of about 10 years spent getting my degree and working in corporate America, the rest of my adult life has been spent as the owner/employee of a custom cabinet company in northwest Montana. I had plenty of woodworking knowledge and experience in cabinetry and furniture, but never built a boat. I knew it would be a challenge, but I also knew I had the tenacity to complete it. I was 56 years old, and wanted to have it completed by the time I would begin to retire. I estimated 5-6 years and 5000-6000 hours. The reality is I completed it last year, which was in line with my completion date estimate, but double the hours 9500 +.

    I wish I would have had more time to share the build with my fellow forumites, but with working full time for the first four years, and the build, there simply were not enough hours in the day. I have posted a few pictures over years, and links to the wonderful website that my wife made of the entire build process.

    The boat was launched and outfitted in Port Townsend, Wa, and curently resides in Anacortes Wa. Her name is Beckon, and and we had the honor of being accpted to the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival in 2015 and 2016. Below is a link to the website of the build, part 1 & 2, and a link to the Smaalders Design website.


    http://northseabuilder2.blogspot.com/

    http://northseabuilder.blogspot.com/

  24. #24
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    Re:Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    John, is this discussion meant to be between various methods of building: stitch and glue, glued lap, traditional clinker, carvel, strip planked….etc? Or is it between the idea of building a small or simple boat vs. a large or complex boat… both built in the same method? Because it makes a difference and the two questions will lead to completely different answers.

    Jeff
    More the latter Jeff. Its really a philosophical issue, "go small, go simple, go now" or "build the dreamboat, taking time that could have been used sailing" Different people will have different answers, all valid. Im interested in the reasoning and the priorities that people bring to their discussions.
    In general, for me, I'm designing for people who'll want to build relatively small boats, using methods that are slightly on the quicker and simpler side of the equation and my own builds are usually to try new designs and test new shapes so my builds reflect that. But sometime, I might set up to build a bigger, more traditional boat just because its nice to work that way.
    I would always though have another boat in use and not everyone can do that.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Excellant thread. While looking at a possible 'sell by' date, I am constrained by work to devote the time to finish the elegant bigger project. So opted for something less elegant but simple construction as a practical boat for some local cruising ( I still have the nice IO design, but find it a bit athletic for older bones) I really enjoy the build process, so count me as 50:50.
    A2

  26. #26
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    If I ever find the time to build a boat I will most likely aim for a compromize.
    A rugged and solid and seaworthy traditional workboat though with some modifications to make it useful as pleasure craft. Brightwork and sanding would definitely not be among those modifications nor would fancy materials.
    Most likely that would be a 16-22 fot open clinker built doubleender with a small inboard engine and a mast fior a spritsail main and a jib.

    My ultimate dream boat would be a 26-30 foot doubleender with side decks and an inboard diesel.
    Fitted with a small wheelhouse over the engine in the stern and a small deck in the bow top provide some dry storage and maybe permanent berthes for two. A large open hold in the middle which could be covered with a simple bow tent and used to sleep in when anchored overnight in some sheltered cove. Clinker built from local spruce with galvanized nails. Soaked in boat soup inside and out.
    Probably fitted with the simplest possible rig for auxillary sails.

    A boat seaworthy enough for crossing the Baltic in whatever direction I want and able to carry a ton or two or maybe three yet as simple and cheap to use as ever possible.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

  27. #27
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Quote Originally Posted by heimlaga View Post
    If I ever find the time to build a boat I will most likely aim for a compromize.
    A rugged and solid and seaworthy traditional workboat though with some modifications to make it useful as pleasure craft. Brightwork and sanding would definitely not be among those modifications nor would fancy materials.
    Most likely that would be a 16-22 fot open clinker built doubleender with a small inboard engine and a mast fior a spritsail main and a jib.

    My ultimate dream boat would be a 26-30 foot doubleender with side decks and an inboard diesel.
    Fitted with a small wheelhouse over the engine in the stern and a small deck in the bow top provide some dry storage and maybe permanent berthes for two. A large open hold in the middle which could be covered with a simple bow tent and used to sleep in when anchored overnight in some sheltered cove. Clinker built from local spruce with galvanized nails. Soaked in boat soup inside and out.
    Probably fitted with the simplest possible rig for auxillary sails.

    A boat seaworthy enough for crossing the Baltic in whatever direction I want and able to carry a ton or two or maybe three yet as simple and cheap to use as ever possible.
    Now that would be a design and build worth watching ! Do you have a design in mind yet ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  28. #28
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Quote Originally Posted by heimlaga View Post
    If I ever find the time to build a boat I will most likely aim for a compromize.
    A rugged and solid and seaworthy traditional workboat though with some modifications to make it useful as pleasure craft. Brightwork and sanding would definitely not be among those modifications nor would fancy materials.
    Most likely that would be a 16-22 fot open clinker built doubleender with a small inboard engine and a mast fior a spritsail main and a jib.

    My ultimate dream boat would be a 26-30 foot doubleender with side decks and an inboard diesel.
    Fitted with a small wheelhouse over the engine in the stern and a small deck in the bow top provide some dry storage and maybe permanent berthes for two. A large open hold in the middle which could be covered with a simple bow tent and used to sleep in when anchored overnight in some sheltered cove. Clinker built from local spruce with galvanized nails. Soaked in boat soup inside and out.
    Probably fitted with the simplest possible rig for auxillary sails.

    A boat seaworthy enough for crossing the Baltic in whatever direction I want and able to carry a ton or two or maybe three yet as simple and cheap to use as ever possible.
    awesome!... my current build, minus the engine... a local fishing craft, also throw in a bit of Historical significance in that the original was the first boat to be single handed across the Atlantic ocean!


    you can just make out the center cargo hatch in this faded print from some time about 1900 taken in at the famous fishing port of Gloucester Ma.


  29. #29
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    I began with a dream of building a 24' - 28' off-shore cruiser, something my wife and I could take on longish passages. How complex a build? With no woodworking experience to speak of, I would need to go simple. JW's Sundowner caught my eye. But, at 18', she wouldn't qualify; John does, however, admit to stretching her by 1/8th. At the stretched length, and designed from the outset for an amateur builder, I felt this would satisfy. I've even gone so far as to construct the build table John sketches in his plans. It has served me well, even though I've yet to begin building the big one.

    It occurred to me that I would do well to start small, so I'm building his Tender Behind, his little lug-rigged 2 meter dinghy. I find I'm thoroughly enjoying the building. Admittedly, this build is taking too long: as a novice, I have spent too much time looking at what I've just done, sometimes only to think of ways to fix it. I'm making fewer mistakes these days, and the build is closing in on completion. Even so, I'm starting to think that I still haven't made enough mistakes yet to be qualified to take on the big build: I may try my hand at practicing the discipline required to build a boat to a set build schedule.

    Will I take the dinghy out sailing on our lakes? Damn right. My wife wouldn't let me not take her out sailing. Do I enjoy sailing? Damn right.

    I had a dream of staying employed, working until I was 72. Silly me -- I had to quit sooner because the work was interfering with my boat building. One of the reasons the dinghy build is taking so long is that I had to take 4 months off-line mending a broken leg, experiencing the joy of feeling a stent being placed in a coronary artery, and then having my left shoulder brutalized by a crew of ruffians implanting a pacemaker. Still, I expect to have yet another good 15 years to enjoy sailing and boat building. Please note the sequence. So I'm going to build big, probably starting right after my next birthday (end of August). But I'll be building simple -- John Welsford does design some nicely simple boats to build.

    Why do we do what we do? Because we must. It's just that simple.
    The future is already here. It's just not evenly distributed.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Things certainly come along to trip us up! I'm 67, fit and with decades of woodwork behind me. Everything from houses to jewelry boxes ! Unfortunate .... or fortunately! I'm a year post a craniotomy to remove a brain tumour . The year of radiation treatment and chemotherapy has left me a bit fatigued , something I hope to get over as time passes..... but a big project is a great day by day motivator . I've nearly finished my 18 foot canoe yawl and trailer, while sailing her will be great I've really enjoyed the process, the build . So I'll do it again.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
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    South Australia and Tasmania
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    10,027

    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    I'm going to suggest that the OP is based on something of a false premise, being the implied assumption of functional equivalence between a scamp and Peters proposed 23 foot keel boat. It's a bit like asking whether it's better to buy a used bicycle or a new motor home for your road trip around Europe, and suggesting that either will do the job just as well.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern NSW Australia
    Posts
    59,884

    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    It's a comparison of time use Phil, building for a few years then sailing ....

    or

    Building a much smaller boat for a much shorter time, then sailing.
    Building or sailing, what do we want to do? How do we want to spend our time?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    425

    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I'm going to suggest that the OP is based on something of a false premise, being the implied assumption of functional equivalence between a scamp and Peters proposed 23 foot keel boat. It's a bit like asking whether it's better to buy a used bicycle or a new motor home for your road trip around Europe, and suggesting that either will do the job just as well.
    Assume the goal is to see Europe and you have the money to do it today on a bicycle or you need to work and save to do it via motorhome. Both are solutions. Some people aren't cut out to cruise by bicycle and some don't like motorhomes. And some people don't like working enough to buy a motorhome. There are two basic parts to the original question one is resources the other is personal preference.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,541

    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    Quote Originally Posted by sailnstink View Post
    Assume the goal is to see Europe and you have the money to do it today on a bicycle or you need to work and save to do it via motorhome. Both are solutions. Some people aren't cut out to cruise by bicycle and some don't like motorhomes. And some people don't like working enough to buy a motorhome. There are two basic parts to the original question one is resources the other is personal preference.
    Not at all a false premise. The smaller, cheaper, quicker choice implies some differences in the outcome.
    Its quite possible to do a major cruise in a small boat, but that cruise wont have the same degree of comfort aboard, and may need to be trailered from one harbour or cruising area to another.
    The SCAMP Southern Cross will, all going well, be circumnavigating over the next couple of years, most of the mileage being done inside a container, just being taken out for the interesting parts of the journey.
    I'd be happy touring Europe on a bicycle, but its a very different way of doing it from using a motorhome.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  35. #35

    Default Re: The tradeoff between a small quick build and a bigger longer build

    I like this discussion, and have done both sides of the argument (sort of) and right now I'm falling on the side of small quick build. I owned an Alberg 35 for 15 years and I know it's not wood, but I spent 4 years rebuilding her. Aside from the hull being glass it had a lot of traditional elements and I really enjoyed the rebuild process and learned a lot along the way. Once I got her back in the water, I spent 2 good years sailing and enjoying the boat, but along the way I found that once the rebuild is done, it is replaced with costly and tedious maintenance that needs to be done to keep the boat in good condition. It's not like I didn't know about the required maintenance, I had owned this boat for 7 years prior to the rebuild and dealt with all of that (and never hated it), but after doing a large, complicated projects on the boat, the maintenance part became something I dreaded. I could have paid somebody, but I'm by no means rich and have always prided my self sufficiency. The bigger the boat, the more you are going to pay; your time, your money, or both.

    Anyway, I sold the Alberg last year and I have downsized considerably. I started building a Campion Apple 16 back in February, and while I am spending a considerable amount of time building the boat (and enjoying every minute), it's not nearly the time I spent on the bigger boat and if I'm lucky, I might be able to get it out sailing this year. Once finished, there are 2 things that I know I couldn't do in the bigger boat:
    1. Camp cruise and explore tons of coastal areas that I could never have gotten the Alberg into.
    2. Put a tarp over it on it's trailer when I'm done and forget about it until the next time I sail.

    I think the motorhome/bike analogy works pretty well here. With the motorhome, you are no doubt traveling in style with little worry about the weather, but your paying a lot more for maintenance and not going to be able to drive it through a medieval village in Tuscany. There is a lot you can miss.

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