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Thread: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    My choice for a good selection and reasonable price for the east coast: https://hamiltonmarine.com

    Since nedL suggests Goulet Specialties in CT I would check them out too.
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post

    BTW, square drive is what I'm after. No way I'm driving 100 slotted screws into a deck. I guess I'd consider a Phillips (or Frearson?) as a last resort.

    PS - RIP Alex F / Pitsiligo.
    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    Tacoma Screw for fasteners. Phillips are for deck hardware. Use square drive...lacking that...Reed and Prince.
    Same, same.

    I think Goulet Specialities has the old Reed And Prince machines.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Only a hundred? Between my foredeck and cockpit sole alone I had more than 1300,… slotted. They’re not so bad.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Standard Fastener in New Bedford, MA
    https://standardfastenings.com/

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Duckworks is showing Frearson #8 x 1.5 at $0.48 each: https://duckworks.com/flathead-silic...e-wood-screws/

    Not sure what a good price is for those.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Having put in more than 2000 slot head screws in a single day with a pump screwdriver,I don't see a problem with only 100 or so,but it isn't my project.Silicon bronze has never been cheap or easy to find.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    I love the phrase "but it isn't my project." I think that all the time, too, when I wander this forum.

    The more I think about it I have a feeling that I'll need a few hundred more for the deck. It's only a 19 footer, but we'll see.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    $10/25 NOS square drive silicon bronze #8 x 1 1/2”. Marine Supply and Hardware in Anacortes, isn’t that up by you? Save on the shipping. Says they’ve got a room full of different sizes.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/20403807051...AAAOSwfoxi0XX1
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 08-02-2022 at 06:28 PM.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Your original bump mentioned Fairwind Fasteners -- I've ordered a few times from them (they are more-or-less local), and I have no real way of comparing, but what they've sent seems good.
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Funny you’d mention them - they had what I wanted in stock and I placed an order. Pricing seemed competitive. It was mostly a question of what was in/out of stock. Also, their Shopify site was simple, modern, and clear and that goes a long ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    One should always ask if the screws are lathe cut or extruded (stamped).
    And try to discover if the fasteners are from a trustworthy sources. I have had some bronze screws that simply twist off...bad alloy.

  12. #47

    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    By "stamped" do you mean roll formed? I know that rolled threads are popular in the machine trades (or at least) cheap, they also lack the stress risers that can occur at the root of the thread if cut. I would think turned would yield a better gripping wood screw though.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikefrommontana View Post
    By "stamped" do you mean roll formed? I know that rolled threads are popular in the machine trades (or at least) cheap, they also lack the stress risers that can occur at the root of the thread if cut. I would think turned would yield a better gripping wood screw though.
    Yes. Harder to drive, in my opinion. One must be careful when buying screws...

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Pilot hole, countersink and depth stop's are easy to find, but I'm only aware that these Stanley Screwmate's (and Millers Falls did some) that can also cut the wider bit for the bronze screw shank clearance. Save's picking up a second hand drill for that every time. They made an 8 x 1.5" Tim. They turn up NOS sometimes or in multipacks of the common used size/ lenghts.




    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325010994...AAAOSw7l9h7IuG

    Stanley Screw-sink was the Stanley version that had adjustable depth stop for buried/ plugged fixings.

    I'm not aware of anything made since that's the same, does anyone know of one wit dat shank clearance part?
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 08-03-2022 at 04:25 AM.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Still the best option for countersunk screws. EBAY is your friend here. Buy a bunch whenever they pop up.

  16. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcford View Post
    One should always ask if the screws are lathe cut or extruded (stamped).
    And try to discover if the fasteners are from a trustworthy sources. I have had some bronze screws that simply twist off...bad alloy.

    Per their site, fairwind gives the alloy (651), and says the threads are cut.

    And seem ready for the controversy on this thread: at least in most sizes, they have slotted, square, and frearson
    Daniel

    Building a Campion Apple 16.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Ha, there’s no controversy on this thread. Good info, generally. I think people just want to be helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    $10/25 NOS square drive silicon bronze #8 x 1 1/2”. Marine Supply and Hardware in Anacortes, isn’t that up by you? Save on the shipping. Says they’ve got a room full of different sizes.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/20403807051...AAAOSwfoxi0XX1
    Great hardware store. It’s about 80 miles north.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    I've been cleaning various Stoneway Hardware bins out of their dwindling bronze screws lately, usually settling for fewer than I need. Also, I used to avoid slotted heads but have found that if I don't drive them all the way home with a power driver, I can then go back with a brace and bit to set them. But you knew that.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Pilot hole, countersink and depth stop's are easy to find, but I'm only aware that these Stanley Screwmate's (and Millers Falls did some) that can also cut the wider bit for the bronze screw shank clearance. Save's picking up a second hand drill for that every time. They made an 8 x 1.5" Tim. They turn up NOS sometimes or in multipacks of the common used size/ lenghts.




    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325010994...AAAOSw7l9h7IuG

    Stanley Screw-sink was the Stanley version that had adjustable depth stop for buried/ plugged fixings.

    I'm not aware of anything made since that's the same, does anyone know of one wit dat shank clearance part?
    Those look handy. I have a countersink and plug cutter set. Only time I’ve redrilled a countersink for the wider shank was when I was working with really dense hardwoods like purple heart, iron bark, paduak, jatoba. Otherwise our local Port Orford, Doug fir, or AYC doesn’t really complain that much when you drive in bronze fasteners.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Pilot hole, countersink and depth stop's are easy to find, but I'm only aware that these Stanley Screwmate's (and Millers Falls did some) that can also cut the wider bit for the bronze screw shank clearance. Save's picking up a second hand drill for that every time. They made an 8 x 1.5" Tim. They turn up NOS sometimes or in multipacks of the common used size/ lenghts.




    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325010994...AAAOSw7l9h7IuG

    Stanley Screw-sink was the Stanley version that had adjustable depth stop for buried/ plugged fixings.

    I'm not aware of anything made since that's the same, does anyone know of one wit dat shank clearance part?
    The best by far are the taper bits and counterbores made by the W.I. Fuller Company, along with their plug cutters. Expensive but well made and long lasting. They have been the standard in all the shops I have worked in and ran since 1972. The family rebuilt the business after a disastrous fire a few years ago.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Fullers dont cut the wider shank diameter. They’re only for full thread screws. And i don’t understand why they are so tapered when bronze screws are not tapered, only at the very end tip, otherwise they’re straight and parrallel.

    The expansion an inch from the end of 7mm quarter sawn AYC floorboards was enough to split them when i did a test after drilling with a Fuller copy, so i drilled the shank part seperately after the pilot and have unsplit floorboards. I’d imagine the same would happen attaching thin hood ends to a stem, but defer to Tim because his pod is still holding up.

    The pilot for a No 10 is 2-3mm depending on the wood while the shank is 4.76 mm diameter. Pushing the wood apart close to an end on the piece being attached is going to make a split more likely then or in the future. I’m slow, but strive to do things perfectly. Mine get Lanocoted. Just saying shank diameter needs at least consideration when inserting these fixings as almost all countersink drill bits don’t accomodate that and are for full thread screws.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 08-03-2022 at 05:01 PM.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Fairwind Fasteners

    Bolt Depot

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Fairwind Fasteners

    Bolt Depot

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Fullers dont cut the wider shank diameter. They’re only for full thread screws. And i don’t understand why they are so tapered when bronze screws are not tapered, only at the very end tip, otherwise they’re straight and parrallel.

    The expansion an inch from the end of 7mm quarter sawn AYC floorboards was enough to split them when i did a test after drilling with a Fuller copy, so i drilled the shank part seperately after the pilot and have unsplit floorboards. I’d imagine the same would happen attaching thin hood ends to a stem, but defer to Tim because his pod is still holding up.

    The pilot for a No 10 is 2-3mm depending on the wood while the shank is 4.76 mm diameter. Pushing the wood apart close to an end on the piece being attached is going to make a split more likely then or in the future. I’m slow, but strive to do things perfectly. Mine get Lanocoted. Just saying shank diameter needs at least consideration when inserting these fixings as almost all countersink drill bits don’t accomodate that and are for full thread screws.
    All I know is that the Fuller bits have been the standard in the PNW far, far longer than when I was an apprentice in 1972, and have been part of building thousands of wooden craft here. I was taught to slightly adjust the amount of exposed taper bit relative to screw length for different species of wood. For example, drilling into iron bark we set the length a little longer to help prevent breaking a screw. Fastening Red Cedar into Alaska Cedar was set a bit shorter, and so on. We were all issued a set of Fuller bits from the Yard Foreman from #6 to #14 and had to account for them when employment ended.

    Regarding your split AYC floorboards, did the Fuller bit split the board while drilling, or when driving the fastener? I have had small craft hood ends under a lot of twist split while drilling, maybe from a dull bit. But I would wager just adjusting the length of exposed taper bit would have solved the issue.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Fullers dont cut the wider shank diameter. They’re only for full thread screws. And i don’t understand why they are so tapered when bronze screws are not tapered, only at the very end tip, otherwise they’re straight and parrallel.

    The expansion an inch from the end of 7mm quarter sawn AYC floorboards was enough to split them when i did a test after drilling with a Fuller copy, so i drilled the shank part seperately after the pilot and have unsplit floorboards. I’d imagine the same would happen attaching thin hood ends to a stem, but defer to Tim because his pod is still holding up.

    The pilot for a No 10 is 2-3mm depending on the wood while the shank is 4.76 mm diameter. Pushing the wood apart close to an end on the piece being attached is going to make a split more likely then or in the future. I’m slow, but strive to do things perfectly. Mine get Lanocoted. Just saying shank diameter needs at least consideration when inserting these fixings as almost all countersink drill bits don’t accomodate that and are for full thread screws.
    So, a while ago I was out in the shop installing some AYC cleats for a deck carlin. I countersunk a pair of pilot holes for a #8 screw, then absent-mindedly popped the block off, flipped it over, and wiggled the taper bit (a Fuller) back through from the other direction to open up the pilot hole to the proper size. I didn't even realize that I've been doing that for years. And apparently that's how I make the bronze screws fit.

    For the peapod, I installed those WRC hood ends hot, right out of the steam box - but I used bronze ring nails to set that hood into the rabbet. (Maybe 10 or 11 gauge?) I didn't use screws. I pulled the plank from the box, set it in place, drilled in a hurry, drove the nails and then clamped the plank into place. I think I used screws for the glued lap Hvalsoe 18, but honestly sitting here right now I don't really remember. Probably #8 x 1.25 silicon bronze screws if I had to guess. Or maybe 8x1s? There, I was setting the hood ends cold and had plenty of time to pilot, flip, redrill, install, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    I’ve heard Fuller will customize their bits to exactly fit your screws if you just send them one. Thicker shank included.

    It’s been a while since I’ve seen Goulet Specialities at the boat show but their screw machines are mesmerizing to watch in person. This one is from the old Reed And Prince factory in Worcester and is running at a greatly reduced speed.




    https://youtu.be/Vi0Tjih-dGo

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    I have always used Fullers, but they are a compromise. Everybody is right. Edward is correct about Fuller's imperfect profile and the danger of splitting. Paul is right about adjusting the length to suit the material. Tim is doubly right about - running back through the part the other direction with the fuller bit, when possible. That goes a long ways towards eliminating splitting and ease driving. AND use a damn nail in the hood ends of a light cedar plank rather than a screw. FYI, Fuller tapered bits are, or used to be, sized for hardwood and softwood as well as screw gauge.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    The best way I've worked out is to take the tapered bit out of the Fuller countersink and replace it with the proper clearance bit. For a #10 screw that would be 13/64 and for a #8, it's 11/64. Set the length of the bit just deep enough for the clearance hole. Drill that. Now use the tapered bit (I have it set up in a separate drill driver) to drill the hole for the threads. I mark the length with some masking tape. Drill that. Now drive the screw. When I do this I'm using three battery powered drilling or driving devices. A pain in the neck for sure but not as bad as the old days before batteries. Then it was a continual tangle of cords going to the three drills.

    Jeff

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    I like to use two battery drills, one with the pilot bit and one with a Fuller counterbore on a regular straight bit. The counterbore and bit are set up to bore just through the first piece. The pilot bit will have a masking tape flag as a depth indicator. It's simple and it works.

    Jim

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
    The best way I've worked out is to take the tapered bit out of the Fuller countersink and replace it with the proper clearance bit. For a #10 screw that would be 13/64 and for a #8, it's 11/64. Set the length of the bit just deep enough for the clearance hole. Drill that. Now use the tapered bit (I have it set up in a separate drill driver) to drill the hole for the threads. I mark the length with some masking tape. Drill that. Now drive the screw. When I do this I'm using three battery powered drilling or driving devices. A pain in the neck for sure but not as bad as the old days before batteries. Then it was a continual tangle of cords going to the three drills.

    Jeff
    Excellent advice on the process and the correct size clearance holes.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    I've been using Fuller bits for over 40 years. I built and repaired many boats without stripping or braking screws and didn't realize the tapered bits were no good. Then I started reading too much and now do what Jim Ledger does.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by holzbt View Post
    I've been using Fuller bits for over 40 years. I built and repaired many boats without stripping or braking screws and didn't realize the tapered bits were no good. Then I started reading too much and now do what Jim Ledger does.
    Who hasn’t learned a lot from Jim’s epic thread(s)? I know I have.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    I’ve heard Fuller will customize their bits to exactly fit your screws if you just send them one. Thicker shank included.

    It’s been a while since I’ve seen Goulet Specialities at the boat show but their screw machines are mesmerizing to watch in person. This one is from the old Reed And Prince factory in Worcester and is running at a greatly reduced speed.




    https://youtu.be/Vi0Tjih-dGo
    Is Goulet still in business? I've had their page bookmarked for ages, but now none of the links seem to work.
    Heute ist so ein schöne Tag...

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Silicon bronze screws - sources?

    Two thing and neither answers the original post:

    1. If you are doing an old boat restoration then you need to used slotted heads on all visible locations. When fully tightened the slot needs to be perfectly vertical or horizontal depending on the location.

    2. Where it is made is as important. No Chinese fabricated screws. Or screws cut cut in the US from Chinese bronze. They are complete junk.
    Last edited by Boatbum; 08-05-2022 at 09:32 AM.

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