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Thread: New York's 'free' college program

  1. #1
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    Default New York's 'free' college program

    So a family making less than $100k/yr can send jr to college on the taxpayer's dime.
    This has to be a libs wet dream. The liberal arts degrees have to explode after this.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    That's just weird.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Figured this would be right up your alley. You could get your history major and live amongst your lib friends.

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Yeah, things have all gone to the dogs since they instituted public education. Why should I pay my hard-earned cash to educate the teeming swarthy illegitimate spawn of the poor? Let 'em go to work in the mills and mines at age eight like in the good old days!



    God forbid that our taxes should pay for anything that doesn't increase cruelty or suffering.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluefin2 View Post
    Figured this would be right up your alley. You could get your history major and live amongst your lib friends.
    No. It's weird that you would complain about it.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Thought that's what liberal arts degrees afforded anyways.

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Thought age 18 was considered an adult. When do 'adults' become responsible for their own things - education being one of them?

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Interesting that anyone thinks that this is a "first". Reagan instituted the first tuition at state colleges in California, which had been "free" for residents since their founding. The City of Kalamazoo, MI offers free college tuition to all residents today. The current heavy debt load incurred by college students for tuition is a relatively recent phenomena, mainly reflecting the reluctance of private industry to pay for their work force, and the reluctance of most of the U.S. to pay for higher education. Might note that Mexico also offers free college tuition.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluefin2 View Post
    Thought age 18 was considered an adult. When do 'adults' become responsible for their own things - education being one of them?
    I guess if you went to work when you were 12, you would have enough set aside for college. Unless you had to pay for rent an food.

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    I firmly believe that education should be free. Right up to a medical degree, PHD, master's programs, the whole shooting match. The problem with education today is that it's too accessible academically and not accessible enough financially. I'm not saying everyone should have a master's or PHD program paid for. A highly educated public is a good thing and it's for the benefit of all for the masses to be well educated and therefore to pay for said education. The problem is the accessibility of it all. Everyone and their dog has a history degree or some other liberal arts degree. How many philosophers does the world need? By opening up the financial restrictions and clamping down good and tight on the academic restrictions (make it harder, much harder) to get in, you'll eliminate the folks taking some useless degree while they "find themselves" and allow access to the poor kid who's actually quite smart, worked hard but would never otherwise be able to get that education. It may be he that cures cancer or figures out Musk's problem of storing tons of power in a small lightweight easily and quickly charged battery at a low cost. It would eliminate all those folks with a BD (Barista degree) and actually improve the validity of the degrees that are granted. There's no need to get a degree if you're going to flip burgers or work construction so why try to feed everyone through a degree program?
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    I firmly believe that education should be free. Right up to a medical degree, PHD, master's programs, the whole shooting match. The problem with education today is that it's too accessible academically and not accessible enough financially. I'm not saying everyone should have a master's or PHD program paid for. A highly educated public is a good thing and it's for the benefit of all for the masses to be well educated and therefore to pay for said education. The problem is the accessibility of it all. Everyone and their dog has a history degree or some other liberal arts degree. How many philosophers does the world need? By opening up the financial restrictions and clamping down good and tight on the academic restrictions (make it harder, much harder) to get in, you'll eliminate the folks taking some useless degree while they "find themselves" and allow access to the poor kid who's actually quite smart, worked hard but would never otherwise be able to get that education. It may be he that cures cancer or figures out Musk's problem of storing tons of power in a small lightweight easily and quickly charged battery at a low cost. It would eliminate all those folks with a BD (Barista degree) and actually improve the validity of the degrees that are granted. There's no need to get a degree if you're going to flip burgers or work construction so why try to feed everyone through a degree program?
    ^ This I agree with.
    Tom

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    World always needs more bartenders and baristas.
    Loved the BD degree reference!

    Agreed. Loosen up the funds and tighten up on the standards. The brightest should succeed irregardless of $$.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluefin2 View Post
    So a family making less than $100k/yr can send jr to college on the taxpayer's dime.
    This has to be a libs wet dream. The liberal arts degrees have to explode after this.
    It is not free college. It only pays for tuition. It does not cover room and board or other expenses. Stuff that the poor cannot afford.

    I would not blame liberals. It is about people who can afford college but want someone else to pay.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    It is not free college. It only pays for tuition. It does not cover room and board or other expenses. Stuff that the poor cannot afford.

    I would not blame liberals. It is about people who can afford college but want someone else to pay.
    For someone that already lives in NYC and wants a college education this could easily make the difference in going or not. I'm sure there are plenty of people in NYC where that would enable it where they otherwise could not. It's a great thing.

    NYC has an aviation high school program. We have hired many of their students as mechanics and they have fabulous work ethic and a good jump on an excellent career. I know many of them personally and without that program they would not be where they are today. It has lifted many of them out of very bad situations.
    Tom

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    It is not free college. It only pays for tuition. It does not cover room and board or other expenses. Stuff that the poor cannot afford.

    I would not blame liberals. It is about people who can afford college but want someone else to pay.
    Aren't you exhausted from jumping to all of those unsubstantiated conclusions?
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Sailor - I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying. But that's not NY's plan. It's a free-for-all on any degree as far as I've seen which is a shame. Note - I could have some fun pulling up some of the degree plans from Lib Arts programs but we all know how ridiculous many are. Free and earned are two different scenarios which you've already stated.

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Every thing that Bluefin has written in this thread is an equally good argument against free public high school, or elementary school, for that matter. And public schools are required to take anyone who lives in the district, regardless of ability!
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Bluefin, you have no idea what you're talking about. First of all the program isn't "free". It is tuition free for those who meet the requirements of the program. Tuition accounts for only a small portion of total costs to a maximum of about $6,500 per year. A student doing a four year degree as an on-campus student then has to come up with another $18,210 per year. Tell me how that is "free".

    Even a student at a 2-year community college as a commuter would still be looking at paying $8,830 per year with a $4,370 tuition waver.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    I firmly believe that education should be free. Right up to a medical degree, PHD, master's programs, the whole shooting match. The problem with education today is that it's too accessible academically and not accessible enough financially. I'm not saying everyone should have a master's or PHD program paid for. A highly educated public is a good thing and it's for the benefit of all for the masses to be well educated and therefore to pay for said education. The problem is the accessibility of it all. Everyone and their dog has a history degree or some other liberal arts degree. How many philosophers does the world need? By opening up the financial restrictions and clamping down good and tight on the academic restrictions (make it harder, much harder) to get in, you'll eliminate the folks taking some useless degree while they "find themselves" and allow access to the poor kid who's actually quite smart, worked hard but would never otherwise be able to get that education. It may be he that cures cancer or figures out Musk's problem of storing tons of power in a small lightweight easily and quickly charged battery at a low cost. It would eliminate all those folks with a BD (Barista degree) and actually improve the validity of the degrees that are granted. There's no need to get a degree if you're going to flip burgers or work construction so why try to feed everyone through a degree program?
    I really don't see how this could ever be possible. There are always going to be costs involved in education. That's why we have taxes to pay for primary and secondary education. I suppose we could try to give them a budget of $0 to make them free, but I suspect teaching quality and the state of facilities would go down pretty quickly.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Always nice to continue important conversations. But to review points already made: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...k+free+college

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Every thing that Bluefin has written in this thread is an equally good argument against free public high school, or elementary school, for that matter. And public schools are required to take anyone who lives in the district, regardless of ability!
    Mixed feelings on this issue, but certainly your statement about all of Bluefin's arguments could be made against tuition-free public and elementary schools is wrong. It seems to me, that one of his arguments is that it will fund a lot of liberal arts degrees, which are not always economically beneficial. That does not seem to apply to high school and elementary school. He has also argued that people over the age of 18 should be treated as adults and pay their own tuition. Again, this does not apply at all to elementary schools, and it barely applies to high schools.

    Argue for the issues brought up farily and honestly Keith, do not throw out pictures like post #4 and comments about the other side like post #17 and expect to convince anyone.

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Ahhh.. "useless" liberal arts degrees. For professions like:

    Teachers
    Social Workers
    Graphic Designers
    Human Resources
    Public Relations
    Psychologists
    Sociologists
    Economists

    Well, we don't need any of those around, now do we...

    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  23. #23
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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    I was baiting Bluefin...and thought better of it.

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Yes I went to a university and yes I did graduate. My mom paid for some and I paid for the rest. Did get a $2500 student loan once and paid it off after I graduated. Then I paid for my step daughter's college as well.
    The whole time I was at college I worked. Only went on one Spring Break during that time and was enrolled year round. I wanted the degree and to get out of there. Since then I've started a business and after 23 yrs sold it and started another business.
    Business degree.
    Note that I did entertain doing 6 yrs in the military as an officer but Carter changed my thinking real quick.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Argue for the issues brought up farily and honestly Keith, do not throw out pictures like post #4 and comments about the other side like post #17 and expect to convince anyone.
    Argue fairly and honestly? Against Bluefin2/Ron? Are you serious? Let's see, what do we have - 'libs' wet dreams', snide remarks about 'liberal arts degrees', silly cracks about history majors (as if studying history were useless), an utterly fatuous point about the legal age of adulthood, as if tax-financed public services should only be available to children . . . I'm sorry peb; I'll argue honestly and fairly to the best of my ability with you or anyone else who makes rational points, but Bluey's posts on this subject so far have consisted of about equal parts snark, redneck anti-intellectualism, and Limboid bullsh!t. There's nothing to argue with fairly and honestly, for there is neither fairness nor honesty. All one can do is point and ridicule.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Who'da thunk that sock puppets have no character or integrity...remarkable.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluefin2 View Post
    Yes I went to a university and yes I did graduate. My mom paid for some and I paid for the rest. Did get a $2500 student loan once and paid it off after I graduated. Then I paid for my step daughter's college as well.
    The whole time I was at college I worked. Only went on one Spring Break during that time and was enrolled year round. I wanted the degree and to get out of there. Since then I've started a business and after 23 yrs sold it and started another business.
    Business degree.
    Note that I did entertain doing 6 yrs in the military as an officer but Carter changed my thinking real quick.
    Honestly, if you were in the same position today, at the same age, do you think that you and your mother could do the same thing to pay for college?

    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    Interesting that anyone thinks that this is a "first". Reagan instituted the first tuition at state colleges in California, which had been "free" for residents since their founding. The City of Kalamazoo, MI offers free college tuition to all residents today. The current heavy debt load incurred by college students for tuition is a relatively recent phenomena, mainly reflecting the reluctance of private industry to pay for their work force, and the reluctance of most of the U.S. to pay for higher education. Might note that Mexico also offers free college tuition.
    Mexico also has Univeral Health Care.

    I really can not imagine why these rabid ratfreakers allow Mexico to outstrip them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bluefin2 View Post
    Yes I went to a university and yes I did graduate. My mom paid for some and I paid for the rest. Did get a $2500 student loan once and paid it off after I graduated. Then I paid for my step daughter's college as well.
    The whole time I was at college I worked. Only went on one Spring Break during that time and was enrolled year round. I wanted the degree and to get out of there. Since then I've started a business and after 23 yrs sold it and started another business.
    Business degree.
    Note that I did entertain doing 6 yrs in the military as an officer but Carter changed my thinking real quick.
    That's just weird.
    Rattling the teacups.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Bluefin, you have no idea what you're talking about. First of all the program isn't "free". It is tuition free for those who meet the requirements of the program. Tuition accounts for only a small portion of total costs to a maximum of about $6,500 per year. A student doing a four year degree as an on-campus student then has to come up with another $18,210 per year. Tell me how that is "free".
    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Aren't you exhausted from jumping to all of those unsubstantiated conclusions?
    Since you provided some numbers, I can easily provide substantiation.

    You provide $18,210/year as expenses not covered by the program. Consider 2 families identical except for the fact that one makes $100K and the other $18,210 less each year. That comment should be sufficient for you to see that the family making $100K/year gets a much better deal from this tuition plan than the poorer family. If my comment was not sufficient, your first comment above is certainly an indication that you believe that those who are more able to afford college are being given assistance that the poor cannot take advantage of.

    The current student financial aid process that determines what a family "can" afford to pay seems to work properly. Those with more resources are expected to pay more. Those will less resources are expected to pay less. Certainly it could be made better, but the "free" tuition is not better. Better would be for those at the bottom to pay less. Then there are the suggestions that the list price of college should be increased by a lot so that the richest people will pay more. With the current financial aid formulas everyone else will pay the same.


    Just for reference: Under the current financial aid formulas my daughter's family with income of $150K/year is expected to contribute $45K/year regardless of where my granddaughter goes to college. Considering that the family has had 18 years to save, it is really not that much to pay.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Canoez, the biggest hurdle for college really isn't tuition it's room and board. I had 3 roommates. If I had to do it again I'd probably suck it up and have 3 roommates again. And yes it can be done. Lots of kids working and making due without gobs of debt. Have to be able to say no to all the credit cards and be able to work and study.
    And your chart on the rising cost of tuition is another thread subject...

    Ozna - go get ya some of that free mexican healthcare hombre. Let us know how it's worked.

  31. #31
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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Ok, the US spends around 3% of its GDP on post-secondary education, that is around $540B dollars. Now, all of that should be free of cost to the student. So we need to raise taxes $1800 for every man, woman, and child in the US. Yea or nea?

  32. #32
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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Canoez, the biggest hurdle for college really isn't tuition it's room and board.
    That may have been true when we went to college. No longer.

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Ok, the US spends around 3% of its GDP on post-secondary education, that is around $540B dollars. Now, all of that should be free of cost to the student. So we need to raise taxes $1800 for every man, woman, and child in the US. Yea or nea?
    Does that $540B include room and board and books, etc.?

    Or is that TUITION ONLY?
    Rattling the teacups.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Mr. Wilson, don't know about MN but I just put my step daughter thru college. I can promise you that it was a lot easier to make out the tuition checks than it was rent monthly.

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    Default Re: New York's 'free' college program

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Does that $540B include room and board and books, etc.?

    Or is that TUITION ONLY?
    That is total amount spend on post-secondary education in the US per this article "https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp".


    Education expenditures are from public revenue sources (governments) and private revenue sources, and include current and capital expenditures. Private sources include payments from households for school-based expenses such as tuition, transportation fees, book rentals, and food services, as well as public funding via subsidies to households, private fees for education services, and other private spending that goes through the educational institution
    Any money that goes through the institution, so I am guessing that on-campus housing is included.

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