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Thread: deplaned

  1. #106
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Meanwhile, United's CEO is still collecting megabucks every payday. HE or SHE OUGHT TO SACKED! I've haven't flown United in years, when I have a choice. They were impressive in my regard on a recent (unusual) flight, but that is all washed away by the stupidity displayed in the OP.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: deplaned

    I'll add that if the guy who was dragged out really is a Physician, I wouldn't want to be one of his patients.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Why?
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  4. #109
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    So you don't think he should have left when the airline asked him to leave?

    Once he refused the police officer, it was no longer about the seat. He the broke the law. Civilized people obey the law. Or do we have a different opinion about civilized there, too?

    Kevin
    Many people will think that the issue might have been one of civil trespass, but since the safety of the aircraft was not at issue they will be surprised to learn that police involvement took place. Did the passenger really commit a crime?

    BBC version here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39563570
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  5. #110
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve McMahon View Post
    Or
    C: Offer enough money to make it worth someone's while to wait a day. I bet you would have gotten takers at $1500.00 each.
    D: Not exercise option C, get smeared on social media (justifiably), and probably cost a zillion times more in lost business and poor(er?) employee moral.

    I understand the system, but I also understand the value of customer service. This didn't have to happen. Just because it was legal to forcibly remove the passenger does not make it the right thing to do on more than one level.
    Or E:
    Dont be so frikken tight, and book your crewmembers onto one of the competions flights.
    Your customers arrive at their destination in the seats they paid for, your crew arrive wherever it is that they need to be, and sooner or later the shoe will be on the other foot with your competition. Everybody wins. It isnt rocket science


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  6. #111
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    Default Re: deplaned

    In the UK, a soon as obstruction occurs, independent of any surrounding issues of right or wrong, often during a micro 'police induced conflict' some of our police officers have reached for the Taser and electrocuted people. He could have had an even worse day here in Blighty.

  7. #112
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    In the UK, a soon as obstruction occurs, independent of any surrounding issues of right or wrong, often during a micro 'police induced conflict' some of our police officers have reached for the Taser and electrocuted people. He could have had an even worse day here in Blighty.
    Are you defending United on this issue? Since when has refusal to volunteer been classified as obstruction. Imagine how you would feel if you went into a store and purchased an item, then as you were leaving, the store keeper stopped you and said "look, I need that item back, it was the last one in stock and I need it for a more important customer". Then when you refuse to hand it back he calls the police, and you are dragged out of the shop, leaving the item behind. I reckon if you got tasered in that situation, and it was all over social media, then there would be at least one seriously canned police officer.
    Last edited by isla; 04-11-2017 at 08:22 AM.
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  8. #113
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Many people will think that the issue might have been one of civil trespass, but since the safety of the aircraft was not at issue they will be surprised to learn that police involvement took place. Did the passenger really commit a crime?

    BBC version here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39563570
    some people cannot give-up the idea of 'people control'
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  9. #114
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    Default Re: deplaned

    According to NPR, the 'doctor' in question was of Asian ethnicity, and this incident has severely damaged United's reputation in the burgeoning China market. This Mr. Munoz (I think that's his name) can blow this off all he wants, but they have to be in major damage control mode, and I would be surprised if he doesn't get sacked. That's what happens when you are a CEO and the worth of your company nosedives. Who today is going to book with United if they have another option?

    And of course, the same exact thing could happen with any other domestic carrier today. Just about ALL flights are overbooked. I haven't been on a plane that wasn't completely full in years.

    Several years ago I was standing in the Belfast airport reading this large poster with the detailed EU passengers bill of rights posted on it. It was unbelievably generous to the airline customers, and full of the common sense things you'd want if you were paying for a service as a customer. Sadly, things here are tilted completely towards the carriers. Basically, you pay, and then you hope.

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  10. #115
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    Default Re: deplaned

    A small demonstration of several things:
    1. What you have the legal right to do and what you ought to do are not the same thing.
    2. Everybody now has an instant easy-to-use movie camera, and a short film can be seen by a good fraction of the people on the planet within hours, if not minutes.
    3. Behave like a total *sshole toward your customers and they'll go away. As Bamanick says, who'll fly United today if they can avoid it?
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  11. #116
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Has anyone tracked United's worth lately? What's happening near real time to the company? Will there be another song written about United? I know there's a lot of political cartoons already.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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  12. #117
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Many people will think that the issue might have been one of civil trespass, but since the safety of the aircraft was not at issue they will be surprised to learn that police involvement took place. Did the passenger really commit a crime?

    BBC version here:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-39563570
    I believe that is correct under 14 C.F.R. 121. Failure to comply with the instructions of the flight crew is a crime. When asked to leave the plane by the flight crew, failure to follow that instruction was a crime.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  13. #118
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    Default Re: deplaned

    I don't see any excuse, at all, for United or for the cops who dragged them off. UAL stock is down 2.4% this morning. With a $21B market cap, you just blew $500M dollars of shareholder value. Sure, it might be an overreaction by the market, but it might be an accurate reflection of the lost revenue from people not choosing United in the future.
    Its simple, you need someone off a flight due to overbooking, there should be a standard procedure, and it should never involve force or calling security. You up the amount being offered until someone accepts, in parallel, you look for alternative flights for your crew who need on board. I don't care if it costs 10K/passenger, it is pocket change compared to the risk in this day and age of a video going viral.

  14. #119
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    I believe that is correct under 14 C.F.R. 121. Failure to comply with the instructions of the flight crew is a crime. When asked to leave the plane by the flight crew, failure to follow that instruction was a crime.
    Thanks.

    I see that UA'S share price actually rose on the news - logically because investors thought they were buying on the dip caused by the news.

    Their timing was wrong - the stock has been falling today..
    Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 04-11-2017 at 08:55 AM.
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  15. #120
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    Default Re: deplaned

    do you remember the 60's?

    failure to kowtow to authority was a crime then too
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

  16. #121
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    do you remember the 60's?

    failure to kowtow to authority was a crime then too
    Failure to comply with aircrew instructions could result in safety issue that endanger any and all on the plane. Also, you have to realize that anytime you purchase an airline ticket, it does not guarantee you the right to fly. There is tons of fine print in any ticket's contract of carriage which gives the carrier huge leeway in what they do and don't do within the confines of the law.

    That said, as I mentioned earlier, the use of force was, IMO, excessive by the security/police and it has resulted in a suspension of the individual involved. From a PR standpoint, it was also a nightmare. In the long term, it may have been cheaper to continue to offer higher compensation or to have put the flight crew on another aircraft.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  17. #122
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    Has anyone tracked United's worth lately? What's happening near real time to the company? Will there be another song written about United? I know there's a lot of political cartoons already.

    An old one from 2011, but a leopard doesn't change it's spots . . .

    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  18. #123
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    Default Re: deplaned

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/11/united-airlines-boss-oliver-munoz-says-passenger-belligerent
    United Airlines CEO calls dragged passenger 'disruptive and belligerent'



    http://money.cnn.com/2017/04/11/news...r-pr-disaster/

    United Airlines shows how to make a PR crisis a total disaster


    Last month, United Airlines CEO Oscar Munoz was named U.S. Communicator of the Year by the magazine PRWeek.

    Now he's being raked over the coals for his response to a violent passenger incident on a United Airlines flight.

    Public relations experts say the CEO should have quickly offered an unreserved apology after a customer was filmed on Sunday being forcibly removed from his seat and dragged down an overbooked aircraft's aisle.
    Instead, Munoz apologized only for "having to re-accommodate ... customers."
    Many customers found the response to be overly callous -- and said so on social media, where video of the incident had gone viral.
    But Munoz doubled down in a letter sent to United employees on Monday afternoon, describing the passenger as "disruptive and belligerent." He also said that "employees followed established procedures for dealing with situations like this."
    Rupert Younger, a PR expert and director of the Oxford University Centre for Corporate Reputation, said that Munoz's response was a major disappointment, and that United should have moved much more quickly to limit damage from the video.
    "The apology by the CEO was, at best, lukewarm or, at worst, trying to dismiss the incident," said Younger. "The CEO should make a better, more heartfelt, more meaningful and more personal apology."
    Younger said that United should also address public concerns over industry policies related to bumping passengers from their flights.
    The United response "looks uncaring and it looks like it's effectively trying to apologize for the incident without really addressing the core issue of how they deal with customers," said Younger, co-founder of the PR firm Finsbury.
    Related: The often-overlooked reason United can kick you off your flight
    United is now struggling to contain fallout from the incident. On Tuesday, the top trending topic on Twitter in the U.S. was #NewUnitedAirlinesMottos, with users suggesting slogans such as "not enough seating, prepare for a beating."
    Company shares, which weathered the storm on Monday, were sharply lower in premarket trading.
    Meanwhile, video of the incident was attracting huge attention in China, which is a key growth market for United.
    United was the top trending topic Tuesday on Weibo, China's answer to Twitter, attracting more than 100 million views.
    Related: Outrage in China over United viral video
    James Fallows, a journalist who has written a book about China's aviation industry, called out United for failing to respond while the incident dominated social media discussions in such a key market.
    "[United is] suffering *profound* damage in most important international market right now, and no sign of response," he said in a post on Twitter.
    Ed Zitron, a PR expert and the author of "This Is How You Pitch," said that United may not be offering a full apology because of fears over a potential lawsuit.
    But that's not an effective strategy, he said.
    "Had United shown compassion and intent to make things right, they could have come out of this at the very least looking like an airline that cares," Zitron said. "Instead they've just made it even worse."
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  19. #124
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    . In the long term, it may have been cheaper to continue to offer higher compensation or to have put the flight crew on another aircraft.
    That is quite an understatement I think.
    Stay calm, be brave....wait for the signs. Possibly precariously prevaricating.
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  20. #125
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Stay calm, be brave....wait for the signs. Possibly precariously prevaricating.
    .

  21. #126
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    This story has rattled round the globe, not just on social media.

    United should expect a very significant drop in their passenger numbers and in their share price.
    NPR reports that the video has gone viral in China (130 million views and climbing at 20 million/hour) because of the man's ethnicity.
    http://www.npr.org/2017/04/11/523382...viral-in-china

    Good luck with your Chinese expansion plans United.

    Also heard elsewhere that the cops have been suspended pending investigation.
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  22. #127
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Remember when Audi was selling those cars in the US that kept being crashed because the brake and gas pedal were very close to one another? Was it the Audi 9000? Remember the 60 Minutes story about the man who crushed his small daughter between the car and the garage wall while driving said Audi? Remember the CEO of Audi in North America telling 60 Minutes that there was nothing wrong with the cars, that this was an operator error situation? If you do remember any of that you also remember Audi completely disappearing from the US market for several years after that. The cold, callous way in which the Audi exec answered the questions put to him still stick in my mind.

    While all of that was going on I was assigned one of those cars while on a business trip to Germany (they had a different name for it over there). It really was a fantastic car, and I would have loved to have owned one instead of whatever clunker I had at home at the time. But that doesn't matter, that it was a very nice car. What mattered was that CEO's face on the television screen when he was being tasked with the fatalities involved with people who were driving his cars. I would imagine that United is having some sort of emergency meeting of the board today, and that some changes will be made.

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  23. #128
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Seen on Facebook :

    UNITED AIRLINES TRAINING VIDEO


    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  24. #129
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    Default Re: deplaned

    I wonder how many advertising dollars this negated?

    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  25. #130
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Might I express my appreciation to Mr Munoz.

    I work in an industry where senior managers are proverbially bad at dealing with the public (cf "The front fell off").

    Mr Munoz has just managed to make every man jack of them look like Richard Branson. Munoz looks more like Gerald Ratner:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner

    The really interesting question - which I am sure some journalists are already on to - will the difference between his "compensation" when he is forced out, for being an insensitive jerk,and the compensation paid to the unfortunate doctor.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  26. #131
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    I wonder how many advertising dollars this negated?


    All of them
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  27. #132
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    Default Re: deplaned

    I gather that there is some question as to whether United violated the terms of carriage by removing the passenger. Once the passenger is allowed on the aircraft, the passenger has been "boarded". As the terms of carriage seem to talk about denial of boarding for overbooking, but not removal, does this argument hold any water? The reasons for removal don't seem to be among the terms of carriage under Rule 21.
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  28. #133
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Might I express my appreciation to Mr Munoz.

    I work in an industry where senior managers are proverbially bad at dealing with the public (cf "The front fell off").

    Mr Munoz has just managed to make every man jack of them look like Richard Branson. Munoz looks more like Gerald Ratner:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ratner

    The really interesting question - which I am sure some journalists are already on to - will the difference between his "compensation" when he is forced out, for being an insensitive jerk,and the compensation paid to the unfortunate doctor.
    Here is a (precedent) hint.

    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  29. #134
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    Default Re: deplaned

    When we went to China in 2012 it was United or walk. It was the first time in over 65 years of flying I have heard a cabin attendants yelling at passengers, including me, because I was having trouble getting my seat back up. "It worked alright last time."

    If I were younger I would walk next time.

  30. #135
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve McMahon View Post
    That is quite an understatement I think.
    I used to fly to Anchorage every month for 2 weeks for years. I would purposely, book a day early at Alaska airlines at the most crowded times and graciously collect my bump fees.

  31. #136
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Failure to comply with aircrew instructions could result in safety issue that endanger any and all on the plane. Also, you have to realize that anytime you purchase an airline ticket, it does not guarantee you the right to fly. There is tons of fine print in any ticket's contract of carriage which gives the carrier huge leeway in what they do and don't do within the confines of the law.

    That said, as I mentioned earlier, the use of force was, IMO, excessive by the security/police and it has resulted in a suspension of the individual involved. From a PR standpoint, it was also a nightmare. In the long term, it may have been cheaper to continue to offer higher compensation or to have put the flight crew on another aircraft.
    so, you're saying this was a safety issue?
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

  32. #137
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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    so, you're saying this was a safety issue?
    No. I did not.

    However Federal law gives aircrew great latitude for dealing with customers for that reason.

    In this situation, after making some offers of compensation to passengers to leave the plane, nobody did. Passengers were then selected to de-plane based on whatever metric that United uses. The aircrew gave the passenger an instruction that was part of their duties. The passenger failed to follow those instructions and was therefore interfering with the aircrew. At that point, it would appear that the passenger violated the law. Security was then called to remove the passenger.

    Was it handled well? No. Do folks have some responsibility for what happened and how it happened? Yes - and it would appear that the responsibility and blame lies among all parties - the airline, the passenger, and the security personnel.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  33. #138
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    Default Re: deplaned

    you did not? then it's a what-if argument?
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: deplaned

    If it had been a train, they could have just coupled another car to it...

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    Default Re: deplaned

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    you did not? then it's a what-if argument?
    No - it isn't a what-if argument, employees who are flight personnel have a great deal of latitude in dealing with passengers. They have the last word.

    Why do they have the last word? Because the government and their employers have determined that it is necessary. Why is this necessary? Primarily for reasons of safety - that is the basis of why they have such broad powers. Was that the reason for the exercise of their powers here? No.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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