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Thread: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    Here's a list of the wights of various woods, in case you happen on some better spar making wood.

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wo...sity-d_40.html

    When you are planing the spars, keep in mind that the mast needs to be stiffer than a comparable mast for a rig that attaches the sail to the mast.

  2. #37
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    Smile Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laukejas View Post



    Sail area is 76 square feet, all spars are 118" long (I can re-use my current mast by shortening it), lead is 3%. I can up the sail area and move CE forward a bit if I use a 2-piece sprit pole. Center of mass is very low. Sprit sails are also said to be very weatherly, more so with the jib. The obvious downside is lack of simplicity. Handling two sails in a boat this small singlehanded might be a little over my capability, especially when launching and landing in foul weather.. Also, since the jib is boomless, it might create more weather helm than the mainsail, so maybe my 3% lead isn't enough...
    To move CE forward with max sail area, how about hanging a jib off a bowsprit. It could be self-tacking with a boom-batten.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    A clubbed jib, whether run as a forestaysail with the jib out on a bowsprit or run as a solo jib, is of fantastic advantage for short-handed sailing. Besides the obvious advantage of being self-tacking and given the low stress usually self gybing, it also makes dousing the jib a jiffy snap if you have a downhaul leading back to the port side of the mast. You can get the jib down and secure on either rail or down the center and held there without a lot of intefereance with anchoring, picking up a mooring, or docking under sail all without bothering to furl and put on sail stops.
    Long ago I found a sunken boat like your hull and really liked it. After attaching a conventional sail and mast I found need for less weather helm, so punched a mast hole more forward. Finally I added a carefree self tacking jib with boom-batten, but it had to be so narrow that maybe a bowsprit would have helped fatten the triangle.
    Last edited by rudderless; 03-24-2017 at 08:09 PM.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    Pine is fine, but spruce is better. I recently made two masts from stock that was intended for scaffolding platforms, perhaps something to look into?

    /Mats
    My blog about my time as a boat building student and as a rigger apprentice http://kaptenmohsart.blogspot.se/ in Swedish only, but there are many pictures :-)

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    I can only think of the latest developments on Paper tigers . Flimsy aluminium spars reinforced with flimsy carbon. simple cheap and effective. not traditional rig you are not asking for that. this is A solution, not THE solution. cost is low. simpler still is round section with square section jammed in there. Only other suggestion is sail a 10sq meter canoe for 3 months and you will learn not to capsize fairly quickly.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    To move CE forward with max sail area, how about hanging a jib off a bowsprit. It could be self-tacking with a boom-batten.

    Long ago I found a sunken boat like your hull and really liked it. After attaching a conventional sail and mast I found need for less weather helm, so punched a mast hole more forward. Finally I added a carefree self tacking jib with boom-batten, but it had to be so narrow that maybe a bowsprit would have helped fatten the triangle.
    Yes, bowsprit and jib boom would simplify the sailing... Yet that's 2 additional spars, bringing a total to 5 to rig and un-rig each time. Anyway, they say jib can't work well without backstays, and in this boat, I'm definitely not adding any. So I guess sprit+jib is off the table.

    Neither can I move the mast, sadly. The boat is made very light, with just enough structure to hold the expected loads. If the mast is moved more towards the bow, it will end up in a place where there is absolutely nothing to keep the paper-thin plywood from getting smashed into pieces. The bow would need severe structural rework... Very complicated to make, and it will make boat heavier than it needs to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by mohsart View Post
    Pine is fine, but spruce is better. I recently made two masts from stock that was intended for scaffolding platforms, perhaps something to look into?

    /Mats
    I called several lumberyards, inquiring about spruce, apparently, I'm far in queue, but I should be able to get some spruce planks in about 3 months... Maybe worth the wait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omnius View Post
    I can only think of the latest developments on Paper tigers . Flimsy aluminium spars reinforced with flimsy carbon. simple cheap and effective. not traditional rig you are not asking for that. this is A solution, not THE solution. cost is low. simpler still is round section with square section jammed in there. Only other suggestion is sail a 10sq meter canoe for 3 months and you will learn not to capsize fairly quickly.
    Funny you should mention that. I visited my our local hardware store, the largest hardware store chain in our country. They discontinued round aluminum tubes. Totally. They will not be manufacturing them anymore, nor importing from abroad. There were other firms that sold those tubes, but their source was that same hardware store chain. It's a little beyond belief, but I guess the only way for me to get aluminum now would be to visit old, abandoned construction sites or junkyards.
    So, I probably don't even need to make comment about carbon... Though I liked your idea.

  6. #41

    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    You could make a Cooper's mast which would allow you to make the most of substandard wood. http://www.toledocommunityboathouse....mast/index.htm

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by tdem View Post
    You could make a Cooper's mast which would allow you to make the most of substandard wood. http://www.toledocommunityboathouse....mast/index.htm
    Yes, I have considered that. But I do not have access to a table-saw precise enough for this. My own home-made table saw has an error margin of around 3mm and 4°. Local lumberyards charge astronomical sums for custom cuts like this, and the last time I asked for a straight 64mm wide plank, they produced a plank that varied between 60mm and 70mm throughout the length. That was at the best known and most expensive lumberyard in my city. I do not go there anymore.

    Anyway, you guys are giving me good advice, I am sorry I'm turning it down. It's just that my options are very, very limited here. As I said, a forgotten third world country. Never mind, I will figure something out. Thank you very much

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laukejas View Post
    Wish I could use spruce, but the spruce we have around here is always full of knots. Impossible to get clear sections that long.
    Glued laminations of small pieces can be very strong; I did that for a cockpit coaming once. Maybe you can start a small business by glue-laming for others too, if there is such a demand for strong wood with only junk wood available.

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    I use aircraft quality spruce scraps to glue up sickle-shaped masts of unusual curvature.
    Last edited by rudderless; 03-27-2017 at 11:32 PM.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laukejas View Post
    Yes, I have considered that. But I do not have access to a table-saw precise enough for this. My own home-made table saw has an error margin of around 3mm and 4°. Local lumberyards charge astronomical sums for custom cuts like this, and the last time I asked for a straight 64mm wide plank, they produced a plank that varied between 60mm and 70mm throughout the length. That was at the best known and most expensive lumberyard in my city. I do not go there anymore.

    Anyway, you guys are giving me good advice, I am sorry I'm turning it down. It's just that my options are very, very limited here. As I said, a forgotten third world country. Never mind, I will figure something out. Thank you very much
    .

    It all goes back to the simplest solution. Get out your plane.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    Yep. No calculators, no new wood needed, no carbo-aluminum tubes or fancy laminations needed, but it starts with no excuses and just getting to work. You can't decide what else you might need until you have refined what you already have.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Laukejas View Post
    I called several lumberyards, inquiring about spruce, apparently, I'm far in queue, but I should be able to get some spruce planks in about 3 months... Maybe worth the wait.
    Laukejas may I inquire why do you not do the logical thing in your situation? Get in the car and go over the border to Poland. There is an OBI in Suwalki directly on the road from the border that should have enough clear tight grain spruce for all the spars you like for little money. Aluminium tubes also if you want them. And if you don't like OBI then there are other stores in Suwalki, just google them. Then you can shop for all the other things that are cheaper in Poland so you don't do the trip only for the wood. It's only 130km from you, a 2 hours drive on a saturday morning.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    Seems like you have a rig for a 14 foot boat on your 11 foot boat and are over canvassed. A 13' 9" rig for a Sunfish uses a 75 sf lateen sail. Mast is 10 feet long, 2 1/4 inches diameter. Yard and boom 13' 9" long, 1 1/2" diameter. If they are made out of wood, usually spruce, they are solid. Now they are made out of aluminum. I offer these specs for comparison to a boat that has over 400,000 copies built, so they must be doing something right.

    Mast Style: Round Tube
    Finish: Clear Anodized
    Length: 10' (3.05 m)
    OD: 2-1/4" (57.15 mm)
    Wall Thickness: .083" (2.11 mm)

    Spar Style: Round Tube
    Finish: Clear Anodized
    Length: 13' 8" (4.17 m)
    OD 1-1/2" (38.1 mm)
    Wall Thickness: .065" (1.65 mm)

    The balanced lug with a jib may be an option or your sprit idea, there is potential to sail that without the jib as well by varying mast rake with a wedge at the base of the mast.



    Or how about a sliding gunter with jib like Arch Davis' Penobscot 14?



    Good work and good luck!
    Kent

    FMI: http://www.willowbayboats.co.uk/

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    Glued laminations of small pieces can be very strong; I did that for a cockpit coaming once. Maybe you can start a small business by glue-laming for others too, if there is such a demand for strong wood with only junk wood available.
    Good idea, but there's no demand for quality wood. I guess if there were, at least some lumberyards would find a way of getting us the good stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    .

    It all goes back to the simplest solution. Get out your plane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    Yep. No calculators, no new wood needed, no carbo-aluminum tubes or fancy laminations needed, but it starts with no excuses and just getting to work. You can't decide what else you might need until you have refined what you already have.
    Yup, that's what I'll do. Not making excuses, but it's a bit too cold to start working in my workshop yet (unheated garage), so I'm getting pumped up behind the keyboard... There's probably another week or two before I can sharpening my planes. I will shave my current yard, bend it on the boat, and then use it for reference if I make another yard after all. If wood won't be available by the time sailing season starts, I'll make do with this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Laukejas may I inquire why do you not do the logical thing in your situation? Get in the car and go over the border to Poland. There is an OBI in Suwalki directly on the road from the border that should have enough clear tight grain spruce for all the spars you like for little money. Aluminium tubes also if you want them. And if you don't like OBI then there are other stores in Suwalki, just google them. Then you can shop for all the other things that are cheaper in Poland so you don't do the trip only for the wood. It's only 130km from you, a 2 hours drive on a saturday morning.
    That.... That actually makes sense. I have no idea why I haven't considered it before. Third of our population drives these 130km (and more) to Poland to do weekly grocery shopping, but somehow it hasn't occurred to me that I could do the same for boat stuff. Maybe if I get a proper list of things I need, the fuel costs will become negligible. Thank you very much for this idea. Seriously, I should have thought of it on my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by signalcharlie View Post
    Seems like you have a rig for a 14 foot boat on your 11 foot boat and are over canvassed. A 13' 9" rig for a Sunfish uses a 75 sf lateen sail. Mast is 10 feet long, 2 1/4 inches diameter. Yard and boom 13' 9" long, 1 1/2" diameter. If they are made out of wood, usually spruce, they are solid. Now they are made out of aluminum. I offer these specs for comparison to a boat that has over 400,000 copies built, so they must be doing something right.

    Mast Style: Round Tube
    Finish: Clear Anodized
    Length: 10' (3.05 m)
    OD: 2-1/4" (57.15 mm)
    Wall Thickness: .083" (2.11 mm)

    Spar Style: Round Tube
    Finish: Clear Anodized
    Length: 13' 8" (4.17 m)
    OD 1-1/2" (38.1 mm)
    Wall Thickness: .065" (1.65 mm)

    The balanced lug with a jib may be an option or your sprit idea, there is potential to sail that without the jib as well by varying mast rake with a wedge at the base of the mast.



    Or how about a sliding gunter with jib like Arch Davis' Penobscot 14?



    Good work and good luck!
    Kent

    FMI: http://www.willowbayboats.co.uk/
    Thanks for these nice descriptions and pictures, Kent. I wouldn't say my boat is overcanvased: in fact, it is undercavased most of the time. As I like to complain every so often, the winds in Lithuania are usually 0.3-0.5 knots 95% of the time. 5% of the time, it's storms and gales that uproot trees. If forecast promises 10 knots of wind, expect 0. If it promises 15, expect 40! Which is why I chose a rig that maximizes sail area per spar length, yet is quick enough to douse in case of a sudden storm.

    I suppose that unless I make a jib self-tacking, it would complicate handling of the boat too much. To be self-tacking, it must be raised from a bowsprit to have any significant sail area. And that's two extra spars, which is a complication on it's own. Anyway, the idea of raking mast that can fix the balance when the jib is lowered is pretty smart. Sadly, mast raking is not possible in my current boat, but I'll be sure to include that possibility in my next one.

    I had this wild idea some time ago, to sew a massive genoa, stretching the length of the boat, overlapping the mainsail, probably around 60 square feet on it's own, to be used in these conditions when most sailors say "there's no wind today"... Like the last regatta I sailed in. It took us nearly two hours to sail 300 yards!
    Anyway, it's probably not worth the effort, but you start getting these ideas when you're sitting idle in the middle of the lake, and watch a local frog overtake you...

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Sailing rig recommendation for this small boat?

    You do know that Poland has a big boating industry do you? Actually one of the biggest in Europe, and modern also. Carbon fibre is no problem in Poland. You won't get everything near the border but you can order it delivered to a polish adress and pick it up. Go to the post office and rent a box or talk to them about "post restante". I would try the post office in Punsk, the village is 74% lithuanian and you won't have any language problems.

    And for the wood you don't have to drive yourself if you don't want it. There are people that live from delivering groceries and building materials from Poland to Lithuania. Just find one of those (online, there are forums dedicated to polish prices, or ask the neighbours) and order the wood. But I would drive myself just for the experience. First you see what is available if you want to build something in the future (Poland has a plywood industry also and polish boatbuilders have gratis online plans ), second you do the groceries for a month. To reduce the cost, share the ride. Just launch the ideea of going shopping to Poland to your friends girlfriends and you will need a bigger car. 20L of gas divided to 5 people is around 5 euros for everyone. I even think you can find 4 skinny girls willing to pay 6 euros for a day at the mall in Suwalki and do the trip to no cost to you at all. Remember to borrow a roof box from someone so you have the space to bring everything they shop back and fill the tank in Poland.

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