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  1. #1
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    Default Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Owning a 30ft Lyle Hess Falmouth Cutter (exactly like Taleisin) I'm considering having my sailmaker put a forth reefing point in her Marconi main instead of using a trysail. Skip Novak (Yachting World, etc.) suggests doing this instead of the Trysail and demonstrates that it is a much safer and a quicker way to depower during a storm. Currently I have no dedicated sail track for the trysail and I believe it was probably set flying by her previous owner.

    Anyone have experience with this approach to storm sailing and know if a forth reef is a disadvantage to the mainsail's performance under typical conditions or for any other reason?

    Thanks,
    John

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Is the mainsail cut out of the same weigh canvas and roped as heavily as the trysail?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Hi Nick - this would most likely be for a new main so I guess it could be of a heavier weight than standard recreational use to hold up to storm conditions. Does heavier mean less control of sail shape? Thanks

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    A very different approach is one I first read of in one of Donald Street's books and is common among Scandanavian year-round sailors. Have a second, heavier mainsail that's battenless hollow roach and has a full size about or a nudge smaller than the regular main's first reef sail area.

    Today, I'd personally go for fully battened sails both regular and winter for their ease of handling.

    Whatever, have the winter sail made of either Oceanus (tricky design due to the diagonal stretch but it can be done) or one of the more stabile modern dacron weaves that don't have that hard thermo-applied finish. You'll be reefing and unreefing lots so might as well make things easy.

    In the design, make for a lower aspect sail. Like keep the full foot length and have the peak enough lower for your full sail area goal. And both unreefed and each of the reefs should yield some rise to the boom.

    This will give you a sail strong enough for almost everything the trysail does with enough choosable sail area to actually move. The big problem with trysails is that they can help steady and go off the wind a bit but are most of the time really too small and set too poorly for real use.

    G'luck

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    The advantage to a trysail (I've never set one, but have been knocked down while trying to bend one on), is that there is no boom flailing away. Especially if you have the gallows. What is your plan for the clew line, if you have it jiffy rigged, that's an awful lot of windage and chafe for a once in 100,000 miles use. I'd drop the main and put a reefing line in when it's on the boom. Brits have a loop of venetian blind cord, looped around the adjoining cringles to serve a a messenger.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    I cannot imagine setting a storm sail , be it a try or jib, flying.
    I would lean twisted what Ian sez .
    That 4th reef may bugger up the full main..so much weight in the leech.
    Course.. we do not have this problem with gaff ketches.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    I have flown a trysail several times, first in nice conditions to work out the rigging and then a couple of time in near serious - like I was ok carrying on with the third reef but it was a great chance to experiment.

    I hated the lack of the boom for two reasons:

    The sail didn't set worth squat off the wind; and

    Handling with two sheets like a jib imposed enormous strains and even taken to that boats primary genny winches was real work.

    One time I experimented with securing the clew to the boom. That sort of worked but that trysail was cut, as most are, with a drooping clew so setting with the boom put the tack way high.

    The power of the sail was too small to tack over the waves and I don't see that improving with more wind.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Thanks Ian - you've made me aware of a few issues between the trysail especially not being attached to the boom. Thanks

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    I'm with Ian. In several days of carrying a storm trysail I've hated the boomless set and loved the boomed trysail, which was popularised here in Australian ocean racing by pro master mariner and multiple Sydney-Hobart winner Roger Hickman. The boom does flail around, but so does a trysail, and while booms are harder no one should put themselves in the line of fire of either in heavy weather.

    I've used the fourth reef idea once. Never again! As Peerie noted, it only works if the mainsail is as strong as a trysail, and that is not efficient.

    I've used the normal-sized ORC trysails and found them a comfortable size, but two of them were 28-30 foot lightweight racers. In one of them I did find myself getting ready to call for a change down at about 2 am going across Bass Strait, until I realised that when you've only got the storm trysail up (it was too strong for the storm jib) you are running out of options.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    That approach has just been accepted for category 1 offshore rating here. I'd do it,but I have the trysl and track...so we'll stick with that.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    I've drawn, and used boats with trysails as part of their working wardrobe. Use it to balance the boat when sailing with a small jib or storm jib rather than as a "driver".
    It works well, with the boom lashed down in its gallows and the main well furled, the storm trysail high enough up so the clew is above the crews heads in the cockpit it works well.
    In some of the smaller yawl rigged boats though, I use the mizzen to do the balancing.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Hi John - I have a staysail with one reefing point (never reefed it yet) but I guess this would help with further depowering and balance. I like the method of lashing the boom down. Do you typically design a separate track for the trysail?

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    John:
    On our gaff-rigged BCC, we had two reefs in the main, plus the topsail to douse, so that gave us the equivalent of perhaps three reefs. In an offshore gale off of Oregon, we found that sea conditions and wind made this double-reefed main to be too much sail plus the very short luff remaining at that point limited the main's ability to help drive us up. The trysail, on the other hand, when hoisted was able to nicely hold her head up at a comfortable angle hove to. On boats of these sizes, motion can make moving about on deck a serious challenge and we developed the opinion that having a boom/gaff swing about was not healthy for our longevity. When the opportunity came up some years later to design MAGIC with her schooner rig, we took sailmaker Carol Hasse's advice and again went with a strong boomless trysail, while keeping the bermudian main's cloth to a reasonable weight. Over the 20 years we had the privilege of sailing MAGIC, we ended up riding out about a half a dozen gales while off soundings, often hove-to and at least three of those were with the trysail set. It can be a good sail for offshore conditions, but the lead of the sheet(s), the stout mounting for their turning blocks and the cut of the sail are all very important. That and your boom gallows for keeping the main well-secured in often-tumultuous conditions.
    Just another viewpoint for you to consider.
    Cheers,
    Craig and Vicky Johnsen
    ex- TALOFA, ex-VIXEN, ex MAGIC,
    now sailing WEE BONNIE, a Sooty Tern

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Thank you Craig. Envious you had a BCC gaffer. Haven't come across any myself let alone many gaffers of any sort down here in SoCal. Your suggestions are excellent and I really like the method as John Welsford states above too, of lashing the boom down to the gallows. Makes sense. Did you lash it to the center position or does it matter? Dockside I lash it in the port or starboard notches to have more room in the cockpit...

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    John:
    We would lash the boom in whichever notch was hand (on VIXEN) when the boat was rolling or tossing about. When we built the gallows for MAGIC, we simply put one notch on the centerline for her main boom. The schooner had track for the main's luff and we fitted a separate track for the trys'l. VIXEN's main laced on, so we went to toggled robbands for the trysail. I'll try to pop on some pictures.

    [IMG][/IMG]



    [IMG][/IMG]




    Quote Originally Posted by SaltyGaffer View Post
    Thank you Craig. Envious you had a BCC gaffer. Haven't come across any myself let alone many gaffers of any sort down here in SoCal. Your suggestions are excellent and I really like the method as John Welsford states above too, of lashing the boom down to the gallows. Makes sense. Did you lash it to the center position or does it matter? Dockside I lash it in the port or starboard notches to have more room in the cockpit...
    Last edited by MAGIC's Craig; 03-21-2017 at 03:52 PM. Reason: thorne's guidelines

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    How proud you must have been to have owned both Vixen and Magic! Where is VIXEN and where is MAGIC now? Being a Pilot Cutter fanatic (I enjoy schooners too!), Vixen was just what I was looking for a year ago but couldn't find any gaff Pilot Cutters stateside. Plenty in Europe but then the cost of getting one here (SoCal) exuberant.

    I see the gorgeous MAGIC hailed from Sausalito. What a beautiful interior too. Love the curving cabin top trunk forward. BTW the 30ft Falmouth Cutter we now own hailed from San Rafael. Wonder if you heard or knew of her? MINKE, cold molded, custom built 1992 in NZ by the shipwright Chris Lowery for himself and wife Helen. Wish I could post a pic of her but couldn't get resizing my images using photobucket to work for me so I could share. She's a marconi with a deck stepped mast compression post below. Looked into converting her to a gaff using Bruce Tipton in Port Townsend but at least $30k to do so.

    Anyway, my gallows is lower than Magic's - I can see why only one notch was necessary because you had standing head room. How did the toggled robbands work out on VIXEN? Interested because I'd rather not add and additional track for the trysail if possible...

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Hi, John:
    Thanks for the compliments. VIXEN is currently in Seattle, having been rescued from a negligent owner a couple of years ago. She has just recently sold again and will be moving down to the Portland OR area. MAGIC has been more fortunate and is now based out of Rhode Island under custodianship of a fine experienced family. Readers might look for her in Maine this summer and then in the Bahamas next winter. The gaff-rigged BCC, CHATAUQUA is being restored on the hard in Port San Luis, having just barely escaped getting cut-up after being abandoned on a mooring. MWENZI, a Canadian BCC, is up near Ladysmith, BC. And one of the new Hess-designed 34' Falmouth cutters is gaff rigged, also in the Ladysmith area of Vancouver Island.

    I had heard of MINKE and probably managed to see her, though the old brain can get vague about the when and where details. PM me if you would like to chat some more about a gaff-version.

    Cheers,

    Craig


    Quote Originally Posted by SaltyGaffer View Post
    How proud you must have been to have owned both Vixen and Magic! Where is VIXEN and where is MAGIC now? Being a Pilot Cutter fanatic (I enjoy schooners too!), Vixen was just what I was looking for a year ago but couldn't find any gaff Pilot Cutters stateside. Plenty in Europe but then the cost of getting one here (SoCal) exuberant.

    I see the gorgeous MAGIC hailed from Sausalito. What a beautiful interior too. Love the curving cabin top trunk forward. BTW the 30ft Falmouth Cutter we now own hailed from San Rafael. Wonder if you heard or knew of her? MINKE, cold molded, custom built 1992 in NZ by the shipwright Chris Lowery for himself and wife Helen. Wish I could post a pic of her but couldn't get resizing my images using photobucket to work for me so I could share. She's a marconi with a deck stepped mast compression post below. Looked into converting her to a gaff using Bruce Tipton in Port Townsend but at least $30k to do so.

    Anyway, my gallows is lower than Magic's - I can see why only one notch was necessary because you had standing head room. How did the toggled robbands work out on VIXEN? Interested because I'd rather not add and additional track for the trysail if possible...

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    We have a builder of BCC's up here living between Ladysmith and Nanaimo, in Cedar. I have not met the guy, though perhaps I should. I have seen a couple of the boats he has done and its good work.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    We actually had our trysail out on the weekend looking for place for it to live hanked on ,on passage. The mast gets complicated around the gooseneck/ partners and a bag there will create halyard issues, and vision issues too actually. So we laid it out along the boom and left it there. I don't think it'll work though, because of the way its offset to the gooseneck. Work in progress. I just don't think it is realistic to take it up and get it on the track in weather.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Big topic, and one with experts on both sides of the question. Skip Novak does indeed recommend adding a reef rather than a trysail. The Pardey's recommend a trysail. I think it somewhat depends on the boat...the size....and the crew. Sloops and cutters have fewer options than a divided rig, so maybe a good idea. a larger boat is dealing with larger forces, and a trisail may be easier to handle. A small crew may appreciate it. A very high aspect ratio sail may have larger healing moment with little drive. a lower aspect ratio trysail may be the answer.
    Gaff sails rarely work well with very deep reefs. The gaff is a powerful lever, and not as well tamed with very little hoist.
    Some guys talk of the sail built up high...heavier material....extra stitching.... Modern cruising cats sit pretty upright...do the sail-makers build heavier sails for them??? I have never looked....
    The last of the "windships" carried separate heavy sails for rounding the Horn and running their Easting in the roaring 40's.
    I have carried a gaff trysail...never used as far as I know. I set it once in the harbour for fun. This on a small gaff cutter, somewhat similar to a HB or Vertue. I never got beyond a double reefed main and reefed staysail...force 8 gusting 9...it was working a bit hard and would have seriously tired me if I was in it for days.
    I have had a storm main which replaced the regular main and handled like any boomed sail running or beating, but was about 60% area of the double reefed main. This I think is possibly a better solution than a trysail. Then again small cruising boats should almost always heave to. Reaching or whatever may pose a risk to the boom catching a wave or whatever, while a loose footed sail is a little less vulnerable.
    My choice is a divided rig with reefs in the main and mizzen and staysail...or is it main, foresail and staysail...possibly include a storm jib as well, a blade (lower forces) more for balance than drive.
    In a sloop/cutter the general size of a BCC I think I'd go for two sailing reefs and a third deep reef for heaving-to-storm work. In a similar gaffer I'd probably have a trysail.
    In Whimbrel I have two reefs in the main and two in the same sized mizzen. I have never used all the options, but never felt I was over loading the sails either. this includes working to windward in force 8 gusting 9...2 metres+ seas under double reefed mizzen and single reefed main. This was for a relatively brief time. with greater sea room I think I would have hove to under mizzen alone.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Excellent points and info Gilberj - thank you! I'll have to get up the nerve soon and experiment with different arrangements on MINKE when it's blowin' pretty good. I am definitely in the Pardey way of thinking with their experience and having the same boat as they did will help. Will practice hoving to with a 3rd reef in the main and using a 8ft sea anchor for sure too.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    I changed my mind after fairly hectic trip to the islands on a friends boat a few years ago. there was such a drama and heightened risk in setting the storm jib we ended up furling the genoa to a scrap second or fourth time we needed to reduce dramatically. The storm jib was too big. I asked an inspector why the guidelines for such a big sail , the answer was they wanted a sail that could get you off a lee shore.Dunno about that.. we needed smaller.
    The boat had a furling main into the boom, and we ended up pulling that right down to about the size of a dinghy sail, I don't know ..... a laser or something.
    46 ft boat so with that main and about 3 ft of jib pulled out she rode like a duck. So that influences me. I don't like furling mains but the infinitely variable amount you can set left me thinking they have their uses.
    So thats a bit like the 4 th reef or very deep reef scenario anyway.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Hi John - thanks for sharing your experience with a furling main into boom set up. You're the first person I know with this, see it on plenty of modern boats with furling into the mast which I absolutely distrust. The English Appledore mechanism used on some early Pilot Cutters achieved the same effect of reducing sail area infinitely by rotating the boom and gathering the mainsail around it that way. A little slow going but apparently effective without fuss.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    I'm pretty sure I'll keep a storm jib ready for hanking onto the inner forestay when conditions call for it. Given my boat's history, I sometimes wonder why there's no extra track for a trysail. I quite like the idea of a `storm reef'. I don't see why a reefing line would need to be left in the sail, as it could easily be added when required. Boom furling seems convenient but I wonder how the modern systems have dealt with the issues we had with roller reefing?

    Rick

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    I'm thinking that the answer to this question depends on the boat. We have a very long, heavy boom, with running backstays, which means if you have a deep reef in heavy going, the boom can not only swing as the boat rolls, it can slam into the backstays. Shipping the boom and securing it is a big aid to keeping the rig intact. The rig included a short sail track with a railroad-car device that allowed a trisail to be rigged, then raised after the main was lowered. We have never used it, and currently don't own a trisail, hence heavy going is usually done with a stout jib alone, The boat balances well off the wind, but generates lee helm to windward---something a trisail would cure. The Bristol cutter rig would allow a storm staysail to be easily rigged--particularly if done early-- which I would think would do quite well with no main or trisail in heavy going. A fourth reef in the main would in all likelihood not do well as a sail, and allow the boom to slam around. Would only be guessing about how effective the trisail would be, but there could be a window where it would help upwind, if you had to.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Dan brings up a good point. Running back stays add a different element, possibly pushing you towards having a storm trysail. I'll say here I have seldom seen the boom swinging around, (except while actually tacking) but there is no question when it happens they are lethal, and the bigger, heavier and longer they are the more of a concern they are.
    John brought up roller furling on the boom. Most folks do not like or trust it and cite poor sail set to support their view. A lot of boats, particularly English boats have used these systems for over 100 years. Wander III had roller furling for the main, and as far as I know still uses it. I have only used boom-roller-furling a couple of times, and prefer slab/jiffy (traditional) reefing. They do however offer very fine adjustment, and in a blow, when sail set is perhaps a little less important, it's nice to reduce sail with nothing blowing away out of control.
    Ian mentions fully battened sails. I started using these with Whimbrel, and completely agree, they somewhat tame the beast. I doubt I'll go back to floppy sails.
    I think practice in using the system you have, so it comes easily and naturally is the key. You are not looking for strings or whatever, you don't wander out of the correct sequence or forget something. We all perform slightly below our peak when things start to get exciting. Frequent training and defined sequential procedures smooth over our inner tension.
    Last edited by gilberj; 03-22-2017 at 11:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Re the boom furling, I'm not talking about traditional roller reefing, I have no time for that whatsoever
    The system is leisurefurl or reefrite style , where the sail is rolled on a spar inside the boom . Its very common here.
    positive , set it to pretty much any sail area, really tidy and low windage when furled.
    negative , you have to wind it all the way up and all the way down, its in a luff groove so more wear and tear than slides, boom height is critical so you need an exceptional vang and topping lift system.( often hydraulic).
    sail shape is fine , perhaps a fraction flatter than some, but thats often a good thing, you have battens ,you don't have to have leech hollow like mast furlers. Love hate for me, maybe when we get older. I have all normal slides ,slab reefing, furling jib, staysail/storm sail on inner forestay on hanks.
    The topic is of interest to us because we're playing with the trysail position at the moment, we'll have the storm jib in a bag hanked on ready to go. Reefrite boom furler .. maybe between 2 and 3 reefs( normal)

    This Riada II a near sister of our boat.


    Love / Hate.

    This is our setup on Riada. playing last year.



    Lots of options there , I can imagine going down to either just storm jib or just trysail for bottom gear( before bare poles). The boat will sail to windward well under jib or staysail so I'm sure she will under storm jib as well if needed.
    Last edited by John B; 03-22-2017 at 06:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Yes, I wonder if that's how Masina was rigged at those times - just a storm jib on the inner forestay? I suspect she'd sail pretty well with that. Hmmm ....

    Rick

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    It helps with balance having a small storm jib forward. Its not usually needed for drive in those conditions. With a sloop or cutter I think a storm staysail is pretty much necessary for a serious cruising boat. I note someone posted a link to a video of Skip Novak's boat deeply reefed with a very small staysail working to windward near Cape Horn. Whimbrel sails well with just the mizzen reefed as necessary, (not quite as well with just the main). I'd still like a very small storm jib, just to improve balance and control, say 15-25 sq ft. I am looking for scraps of sail to adapt. It is a bit of thread drift as this is not about a forth (storm)reef or trysail.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Remembered the other day seeing a storm jib in MINKE's locker in addition to the trysail. After a year of ownership and getting certain upgrades, repairs and sea trials conducted finally laid them out on the dock for inspection. Both look brand new and hard to tell if even used. I don't have a dedicated trysail track on MINKE's mast and intend to put one on soon. With the round the world experience of the previous owner I can't imagine him removing the mainsail from its track to put on the trysail in the conditions that would warrant it. Makes me wonder if he just used a third reef + staysail reefed. I wouldn't want to have an active boom in those conditions given its length though...
    Last edited by SaltyGaffer; 04-05-2017 at 04:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Last night I re-read the annex on heavy weather in the 'Venturesome Voyages of Captain Voss' of Tillicum and Sea Queen fame (first re-read in probably 30 years). Its a good read, and reflects his considerable experience. Much of that was on small sealing schooners 40 to70 odd gross tons (50 to 70 odd feet long), sailing in the high North Pacific, mostly in winter, ( I guess that was sealing season?).
    I won't try to quote him here, but basically he strongly recommends heaving-to under appropriately reduced sail and/or riding to a sea anchor as the best storm tactics for a small sailing vessel. He specifically advises against running due to the risk of broaching, even when towing a drogue or hawser, even when you do have sea room. He often carried a reefed mizzen, while riding to a sea anchor, He makes no specific mention of trying to ride to a sea anchor with the wind and sea ~4 points off the bow using a bridle, as recommended by the Pardey's, but allows that sort of angle is acceptable.
    He also provides detailed instructions for making a properly sized sea anchor.
    FWIW his comments reflect nearly exactly my own experience, though I do not have anything that resembles his experience of small vessels offshore.
    He does talk about entering a river mouth over a bar under sail towing a sea anchor. Someone with more experience running a bar can opine that, I have only crossed a bar a few times in sail boats, and am very nervous and cautious.
    He states he prefers a divided rig for sailing offshore...yawl, ketch or schooner, and then yawl-schooner and ketch-schooner....not sure what the last two mean, but guessing perhaps a 3 masted schooner with a small mizzen, or perhaps just a schooner/ketch with both masts carrying equal or similar sized sails. Any ideas out there? speculation?
    Last edited by gilberj; 04-05-2017 at 06:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    There is a product called "Gale Sail" that is a storm jib...

    They don't show a trysail in their product line (http://www.atninc.com/index.shtml) but the design, it seems to me, could be adapted.
    I have no experience with this. Has anyone seen or used it?

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Sound Beach, NY
    Posts
    3,212

    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    I have a trysail but have not used it. My main has two deep reefs, mizzen and staysail one each. I have not crossed any oceans, and do not plan to, but I do sail at sea up and down the East Coast. I try to avoid heavy weather, but have sailed in 30 knots, and motored in 40. A friend gave me the trysail. It stays on board, but I do not anticipate using it.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    BC Coast
    Posts
    3,457

    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    Johnsandusky brings up a valid point. Near coastal cruisers probably do not need a trysail in their inventory. Even the more adventurous of us can nearly always find a spot to hide from real weather. In my thinking a serious coastal cruiser should be able to function in conditions up to a force 9 - 40 to 45 knots wind. This is not a recommendation to go out in those conditions, just simply your boat and equipment are set up should you be caught out, you should have a plan.... ( I went out to test systems and practice in winds forecast to gust over 30, but actually briefly encountered winds gusting over 40)( FYI I was well pleased with the result). Part of this is that in near coastal cruising you seldom/perhaps never encounter deep-water sea conditions ( wave heights 5 to 10 metres or more )
    Serious storms offshore (usually force 9 or more) you need a plan, and you need proper equipment. A trysail might be part of that

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Auckland ,N.Z.
    Posts
    23,638

    Default Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    We've had a windy season here, particularly early on and Christmas. Lots of 30 knot and a couple of upper 30 into 40. Thats all within normal reef range ....... Trysail and storm jib is for sea. I hope we never need them, but having the option for 50 or 60 is needed.

    When we hove to off the Kermadecs in Riada II under super reefed main and a few ft of jib we did that in about 40 through 45 or so, but that was because we ran into a stupidly vertical sea state.
    Moral: look for the seamounts , even if they're a kilometre down.
    Last edited by John B; 03-23-2017 at 03:33 PM.

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