Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

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  • John B
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2000
    • 31703

    #16
    Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

    We actually had our trysail out on the weekend looking for place for it to live hanked on ,on passage. The mast gets complicated around the gooseneck/ partners and a bag there will create halyard issues, and vision issues too actually. So we laid it out along the boom and left it there. I don't think it'll work though, because of the way its offset to the gooseneck. Work in progress. I just don't think it is realistic to take it up and get it on the track in weather.

    Comment

    • gilberj
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2010
      • 4157

      #17
      Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

      Big topic, and one with experts on both sides of the question. Skip Novak does indeed recommend adding a reef rather than a trysail. The Pardey's recommend a trysail. I think it somewhat depends on the boat...the size....and the crew. Sloops and cutters have fewer options than a divided rig, so maybe a good idea. a larger boat is dealing with larger forces, and a trisail may be easier to handle. A small crew may appreciate it. A very high aspect ratio sail may have larger healing moment with little drive. a lower aspect ratio trysail may be the answer.
      Gaff sails rarely work well with very deep reefs. The gaff is a powerful lever, and not as well tamed with very little hoist.
      Some guys talk of the sail built up high...heavier material....extra stitching.... Modern cruising cats sit pretty upright...do the sail-makers build heavier sails for them??? I have never looked....
      The last of the "windships" carried separate heavy sails for rounding the Horn and running their Easting in the roaring 40's.
      I have carried a gaff trysail...never used as far as I know. I set it once in the harbour for fun. This on a small gaff cutter, somewhat similar to a HB or Vertue. I never got beyond a double reefed main and reefed staysail...force 8 gusting 9...it was working a bit hard and would have seriously tired me if I was in it for days.
      I have had a storm main which replaced the regular main and handled like any boomed sail running or beating, but was about 60% area of the double reefed main. This I think is possibly a better solution than a trysail. Then again small cruising boats should almost always heave to. Reaching or whatever may pose a risk to the boom catching a wave or whatever, while a loose footed sail is a little less vulnerable.
      My choice is a divided rig with reefs in the main and mizzen and staysail...or is it main, foresail and staysail...possibly include a storm jib as well, a blade (lower forces) more for balance than drive.
      In a sloop/cutter the general size of a BCC I think I'd go for two sailing reefs and a third deep reef for heaving-to-storm work. In a similar gaffer I'd probably have a trysail.
      In Whimbrel I have two reefs in the main and two in the same sized mizzen. I have never used all the options, but never felt I was over loading the sails either. this includes working to windward in force 8 gusting 9...2 metres+ seas under double reefed mizzen and single reefed main. This was for a relatively brief time. with greater sea room I think I would have hove to under mizzen alone.

      Comment

      • John B
        Senior Member
        • Aug 2000
        • 31703

        #18
        Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

        I changed my mind after fairly hectic trip to the islands on a friends boat a few years ago. there was such a drama and heightened risk in setting the storm jib we ended up furling the genoa to a scrap second or fourth time we needed to reduce dramatically. The storm jib was too big. I asked an inspector why the guidelines for such a big sail , the answer was they wanted a sail that could get you off a lee shore.Dunno about that.. we needed smaller.
        The boat had a furling main into the boom, and we ended up pulling that right down to about the size of a dinghy sail, I don't know ..... a laser or something.
        46 ft boat so with that main and about 3 ft of jib pulled out she rode like a duck. So that influences me. I don't like furling mains but the infinitely variable amount you can set left me thinking they have their uses.
        So thats a bit like the 4 th reef or very deep reef scenario anyway.

        Comment

        • SaltyGaffer
          Junior Member
          • Aug 2016
          • 29

          #19
          Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

          How proud you must have been to have owned both Vixen and Magic! Where is VIXEN and where is MAGIC now? Being a Pilot Cutter fanatic (I enjoy schooners too!), Vixen was just what I was looking for a year ago but couldn't find any gaff Pilot Cutters stateside. Plenty in Europe but then the cost of getting one here (SoCal) exuberant.

          I see the gorgeous MAGIC hailed from Sausalito. What a beautiful interior too. Love the curving cabin top trunk forward. BTW the 30ft Falmouth Cutter we now own hailed from San Rafael. Wonder if you heard or knew of her? MINKE, cold molded, custom built 1992 in NZ by the shipwright Chris Lowery for himself and wife Helen. Wish I could post a pic of her but couldn't get resizing my images using photobucket to work for me so I could share. She's a marconi with a deck stepped mast compression post below. Looked into converting her to a gaff using Bruce Tipton in Port Townsend but at least $30k to do so.

          Anyway, my gallows is lower than Magic's - I can see why only one notch was necessary because you had standing head room. How did the toggled robbands work out on VIXEN? Interested because I'd rather not add and additional track for the trysail if possible...

          Comment

          • SaltyGaffer
            Junior Member
            • Aug 2016
            • 29

            #20
            Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

            Excellent points and info Gilberj - thank you! I'll have to get up the nerve soon and experiment with different arrangements on MINKE when it's blowin' pretty good. I am definitely in the Pardey way of thinking with their experience and having the same boat as they did will help. Will practice hoving to with a 3rd reef in the main and using a 8ft sea anchor for sure too.

            Comment

            • SaltyGaffer
              Junior Member
              • Aug 2016
              • 29

              #21
              Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

              Hi John - thanks for sharing your experience with a furling main into boom set up. You're the first person I know with this, see it on plenty of modern boats with furling into the mast which I absolutely distrust. The English Appledore mechanism used on some early Pilot Cutters achieved the same effect of reducing sail area infinitely by rotating the boom and gathering the mainsail around it that way. A little slow going but apparently effective without fuss.

              Comment

              • RFNK
                Port Stephens, Australia
                • Feb 2007
                • 26941

                #22
                Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

                I'm pretty sure I'll keep a storm jib ready for hanking onto the inner forestay when conditions call for it. Given my boat's history, I sometimes wonder why there's no extra track for a trysail. I quite like the idea of a `storm reef'. I don't see why a reefing line would need to be left in the sail, as it could easily be added when required. Boom furling seems convenient but I wonder how the modern systems have dealt with the issues we had with roller reefing?

                Rick
                Rick

                Lean and nosey like a ferret

                Comment

                • Dan McCosh
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2001
                  • 16375

                  #23
                  Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

                  I'm thinking that the answer to this question depends on the boat. We have a very long, heavy boom, with running backstays, which means if you have a deep reef in heavy going, the boom can not only swing as the boat rolls, it can slam into the backstays. Shipping the boom and securing it is a big aid to keeping the rig intact. The rig included a short sail track with a railroad-car device that allowed a trisail to be rigged, then raised after the main was lowered. We have never used it, and currently don't own a trisail, hence heavy going is usually done with a stout jib alone, The boat balances well off the wind, but generates lee helm to windward---something a trisail would cure. The Bristol cutter rig would allow a storm staysail to be easily rigged--particularly if done early-- which I would think would do quite well with no main or trisail in heavy going. A fourth reef in the main would in all likelihood not do well as a sail, and allow the boom to slam around. Would only be guessing about how effective the trisail would be, but there could be a window where it would help upwind, if you had to.

                  Comment

                  • gilberj
                    Senior Member
                    • Aug 2010
                    • 4157

                    #24
                    Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

                    Dan brings up a good point. Running back stays add a different element, possibly pushing you towards having a storm trysail. I'll say here I have seldom seen the boom swinging around, (except while actually tacking) but there is no question when it happens they are lethal, and the bigger, heavier and longer they are the more of a concern they are.
                    John brought up roller furling on the boom. Most folks do not like or trust it and cite poor sail set to support their view. A lot of boats, particularly English boats have used these systems for over 100 years. Wander III had roller furling for the main, and as far as I know still uses it. I have only used boom-roller-furling a couple of times, and prefer slab/jiffy (traditional) reefing. They do however offer very fine adjustment, and in a blow, when sail set is perhaps a little less important, it's nice to reduce sail with nothing blowing away out of control.
                    Ian mentions fully battened sails. I started using these with Whimbrel, and completely agree, they somewhat tame the beast. I doubt I'll go back to floppy sails.
                    I think practice in using the system you have, so it comes easily and naturally is the key. You are not looking for strings or whatever, you don't wander out of the correct sequence or forget something. We all perform slightly below our peak when things start to get exciting. Frequent training and defined sequential procedures smooth over our inner tension.
                    Last edited by gilberj; 03-22-2017, 10:54 AM.

                    Comment

                    • MAGIC's Craig
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2001
                      • 396

                      #25
                      Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

                      Hi, John:
                      Thanks for the compliments. VIXEN is currently in Seattle, having been rescued from a negligent owner a couple of years ago. She has just recently sold again and will be moving down to the Portland OR area. MAGIC has been more fortunate and is now based out of Rhode Island under custodianship of a fine experienced family. Readers might look for her in Maine this summer and then in the Bahamas next winter. The gaff-rigged BCC, CHATAUQUA is being restored on the hard in Port San Luis, having just barely escaped getting cut-up after being abandoned on a mooring. MWENZI, a Canadian BCC, is up near Ladysmith, BC. And one of the new Hess-designed 34' Falmouth cutters is gaff rigged, also in the Ladysmith area of Vancouver Island.

                      I had heard of MINKE and probably managed to see her, though the old brain can get vague about the when and where details. PM me if you would like to chat some more about a gaff-version.

                      Cheers,

                      Craig


                      Originally posted by SaltyGaffer
                      How proud you must have been to have owned both Vixen and Magic! Where is VIXEN and where is MAGIC now? Being a Pilot Cutter fanatic (I enjoy schooners too!), Vixen was just what I was looking for a year ago but couldn't find any gaff Pilot Cutters stateside. Plenty in Europe but then the cost of getting one here (SoCal) exuberant.

                      I see the gorgeous MAGIC hailed from Sausalito. What a beautiful interior too. Love the curving cabin top trunk forward. BTW the 30ft Falmouth Cutter we now own hailed from San Rafael. Wonder if you heard or knew of her? MINKE, cold molded, custom built 1992 in NZ by the shipwright Chris Lowery for himself and wife Helen. Wish I could post a pic of her but couldn't get resizing my images using photobucket to work for me so I could share. She's a marconi with a deck stepped mast compression post below. Looked into converting her to a gaff using Bruce Tipton in Port Townsend but at least $30k to do so.

                      Anyway, my gallows is lower than Magic's - I can see why only one notch was necessary because you had standing head room. How did the toggled robbands work out on VIXEN? Interested because I'd rather not add and additional track for the trysail if possible...

                      Comment

                      • gilberj
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2010
                        • 4157

                        #26
                        Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

                        We have a builder of BCC's up here living between Ladysmith and Nanaimo, in Cedar. I have not met the guy, though perhaps I should. I have seen a couple of the boats he has done and its good work.

                        Comment

                        • John B
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 31703

                          #27
                          Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

                          Re the boom furling, I'm not talking about traditional roller reefing, I have no time for that whatsoever
                          The system is leisurefurl or reefrite style , where the sail is rolled on a spar inside the boom . Its very common here.
                          positive , set it to pretty much any sail area, really tidy and low windage when furled.
                          negative , you have to wind it all the way up and all the way down, its in a luff groove so more wear and tear than slides, boom height is critical so you need an exceptional vang and topping lift system.( often hydraulic).
                          sail shape is fine , perhaps a fraction flatter than some, but thats often a good thing, you have battens ,you don't have to have leech hollow like mast furlers. Love hate for me, maybe when we get older. I have all normal slides ,slab reefing, furling jib, staysail/storm sail on inner forestay on hanks.
                          The topic is of interest to us because we're playing with the trysail position at the moment, we'll have the storm jib in a bag hanked on ready to go. Reefrite boom furler .. maybe between 2 and 3 reefs( normal)

                          This Riada II a near sister of our boat.


                          Love / Hate.

                          This is our setup on Riada. playing last year.



                          Lots of options there , I can imagine going down to either just storm jib or just trysail for bottom gear( before bare poles). The boat will sail to windward well under jib or staysail so I'm sure she will under storm jib as well if needed.
                          Last edited by John B; 03-22-2017, 05:05 PM.

                          Comment

                          • RFNK
                            Port Stephens, Australia
                            • Feb 2007
                            • 26941

                            #28
                            Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

                            Yes, I wonder if that's how Masina was rigged at those times - just a storm jib on the inner forestay? I suspect she'd sail pretty well with that. Hmmm ....

                            Rick
                            Rick

                            Lean and nosey like a ferret

                            Comment

                            • gilberj
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2010
                              • 4157

                              #29
                              Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

                              It helps with balance having a small storm jib forward. Its not usually needed for drive in those conditions. With a sloop or cutter I think a storm staysail is pretty much necessary for a serious cruising boat. I note someone posted a link to a video of Skip Novak's boat deeply reefed with a very small staysail working to windward near Cape Horn. Whimbrel sails well with just the mizzen reefed as necessary, (not quite as well with just the main). I'd still like a very small storm jib, just to improve balance and control, say 15-25 sq ft. I am looking for scraps of sail to adapt. It is a bit of thread drift as this is not about a forth (storm)reef or trysail.

                              Comment

                              • jackster
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2002
                                • 1591

                                #30
                                Re: Trysail vs. a fourth mainsail reefing point

                                There is a product called "Gale Sail" that is a storm jib...

                                They don't show a trysail in their product line (http://www.atninc.com/index.shtml) but the design, it seems to me, could be adapted.
                                I have no experience with this. Has anyone seen or used it?

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