Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

[wizbang 13]

Why are only carvel boats "real wood"? Last time I looked (yesterday) the hull of my double-diagonal 28' cruiser/racer was made of real wood, just arranged in a different manner to a carvel boat.

Even at the end of the wooden boat era (ie the late '60s/early '70s) the traditional yacht builders around here (Australia) had normally moved to cold moulding for yachts. It's not that they didn't have the skills for carvel; it's that they thought carvel was inferior in many respects. The attitude that carvel makes the only "real" boats isn't very inclusive and maybe such an attitude is part of the problem.

Ha! I feel my stripper is superior to carvel in every possible way!

[Garret]

Explain this please; I do not get their reasoning, if you want to call it that.

In many places they hardly ever see wood boats & believe they are all old leaky boats that will cause them problems. It's iggerence, plain & simple.

[rbgarr]

In many places they hardly ever see wood boats & believe they are all old leaky boats that will cause them problems. It's iggerence, plain & simple.

Agree. The marinas fear that 'since wood boats all leak and rot and are owned by cheap bastards' they may sink or be abandoned, leaving the marina to deal with the legal hassles, responsibilities and losses incurred. Thus 'take your woodie somewhere else, fella. We don't want to hear how good you and your boat are, yada yada yada.'

[Garret]

Agree. The marinas fear that 'since wood boats all leak and rot and are owned by cheap bastards' they may sink or be abandoned, leaving the marina to deal with the legal hassles, responsibilities and losses incurred. Thus 'take your woodie somewhere else, fella. We don't want to hear how good you and your boat are, yada yada yada.'

I have to give kudos to Robinhood on this one. They've been nothing but welcoming - to the point of "Your boat hasn't been here in a few years - get her in the water, I miss seeing her".

[cstevens]

Agree. The marinas fear that 'since wood boats all leak and rot and are owned by cheap bastards' they may sink or be abandoned, leaving the marina to deal with the legal hassles, responsibilities and losses incurred. Thus 'take your woodie somewhere else, fella. We don't want to hear how good you and your boat are, yada yada yada.'

Unfortunately I have to say that's not an unwarranted concern on the part of the marinas. Many of the restoration candidate boats I see are being sold at public auction by the marina after the boat was abandoned. And there certainly are no shortage of wooden boats that sink at the dock either. Sure, that happens with FG boats too, but there are wooden boat owners out there who do the rest of us no favors. Anyone else here remember boatnoob?

I'll also say that at least around Seattle, the marina's official policy is never a hard rule. If you simply call around and say "I have an old wood boat and I need a slip" you will be denied 9 times out of 10. But show up with some photos of your well-maintained classic and demonstrate that you are not deadbeat or crazy and you will have better luck.

[Don Z.]

Agree. The marinas fear that 'since wood boats all leak and rot and are owned by cheap bastards' they may sink or be abandoned, leaving the marina to deal with the legal hassles, responsibilities and losses incurred. Thus 'take your woodie somewhere else, fella. We don't want to hear how good you and your boat are, yada yada yada.'

And there it is... The thought that you will abandon. That, and the perception that you don't take care of it and it's flaking varnish and dry rot...

[Garret]

And there it is... The thought that you will abandon. That, and the perception that you don't take care of it and it's flaking varnish and dry rot...

As said, a pic should fix that.

[seedy]

I"m grateful for every build, every crazy question, and for the company of people who can do things instead of merely ordering it done. Taking the photos and posting takes time that could be used to get things done. And it's all free, why the griping?

[Dave Hadfield]

Done a bit of that myself. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ed-ketch/page5


Although, initially I found it far more difficult to post a picture on the internet than to build a boat. Seriously.


I had to pay $900 to have her transported near my home and back for the last repair session. And then scrounge for materials.


Working-waterfront has all gone to condos. It's much easier to get a latee than seam compound. There are NO bronze screws on a shelf.


And nearly everyone is scared of solid wood. ( Present company excepted.)


Most of society is like that. In a crowd of 100 people these days, how many grew up on a farm?

[Rumars]

I tought long before posting this, but I think it must be said after all. Wooden boatbuilding is alive and well as always. It's only the self imposed filters that makes it seem otherwise.

One is the geographical filter:
They still build big wooden boats in Turkey, Egipt, Vietnam, Indonesia, India, and all over Africa (and other places I didn't mention) and they are beeing so traditional about it that they use galvanized nails, trunnels and in some places even forge the nails on the spot in the boatyard. Some are motorboats and some are sailboats with inside ballast destined to be working cargo. Evidence of this ocasionally finds it way into this forum via photos in peoples threads.
All over Europe there are still yards and individual boatbuilders doing business in repairing and building new wooden yachts. Some even find a way into this forum and have a thread but most don't. Don't ask me why, but I suppose a profesional builder has better things to do after hours.

Then there is the "wooden" filter:
If it's not carvel it's not "real wood". If one drop of adhesive is beeing used it's not wooden anymore. Not to mention the heretic words "epoxy" and "plywood".

Then we have the "traditional" filter:
If it does not look like a 150 years old plan and full with bronze hardware it's not "traditional" and other BS like that.

Let us look at the realities of life:
Bronze and copper fasteners cost more and are harder to find then epoxy. Galvanized is out of the question because of prejudice. Boatbuilding timber gets harder to find. Good wood is available but you either pay a speciality dealer a hefty premium or you organize your own milling and drying. This makes big timber non glue boats more expensive than other forms of boatbuilding.
Non glue boatbuilding can only produce some limited boat forms. Mainstream yacht building evolved and wooden boatbuilding with it. A wooden boat is still wooden if its held togheter by epoxy instead of metal.
I also think the most ezoteric thing that puts amateurs away from "traditional" wooden boatbuilding is lofting. In the age of CAD this should not be a problem anymore but I have not seen an offer of "full size patterns, no lofting required" for a "traditional system" boat.

I do wonder sometimes how many of the "traditional boat" lovers gasp the fact that in "traditional" planking systems the planks have a limited lifespan and have to be exchanged after a while. I think this fact was often forgotten or else there would not have been so many woodies leaking, rotting and sinking at the dock as to destroy the reputation of wooden boats in some parts of the world.

[skaraborgcraft]

^ Well put. There is a often a vast amount of snobbery in the wooden boat world also, those who may decry anything built out of less than Burmese teak, bronze fasteners and lead, but in reality, mostly, said boat will see far less action than a softwood built, galvanized fastened and concrete ballasted working boat.......but you would have to be a brave soul to post a build thread on a similar boat on here.

[Al G]

^ Well put. There is a often a vast amount of snobbery in the wooden boat world also, those who may decry anything built out of less than Burmese teak, bronze fasteners and lead, but in reality, mostly, said boat will see far less action than a softwood built, galvanized fastened and concrete ballasted working boat.......but you would have to be a brave soul to post a build thread on a similar boat on here.

Nothing wrong with gal, softwood and concrete, old chap, as long as it's an oughtred or a herreschoff.

[wizbang 13]

Fir, galvanized nails, concrete.... that is how Woodwind rolls!

[lupussonic]

Why are only carvel boats "real wood"?

They're not. Everyone knows the only real wooden boats are clinker.

[Reynard38]

To the OP, find me a 15' open wooden catboat (Maybe one of the Maynard Lowery built boats) for sale that needs a restoration and I'll give you a "real" wood restoration thread.

As to the "low budget person" comment some of us happen to prefer small boats that can be easily managed and worked on even if our budgets allow something bigger. Big boats are frankly a real PITA and I'm of the opinion offer a diminishing ROI as the LOA increases.

[artif]

Seeing as I have been mentioned a few times on here, I guess a reply is in order.
It does seem that plank on frame boats are few and far between but they are out there, but as stated previously the people doing it are probably just getting on with it. Usually on there own which makes taking pictures a pita, ruins the flow and interupts my limited time that I have to play. There also seems a shift to Facebook which isn't great for finding old threads or valuable information, even I have crappy fb page for Incentive but I prefer to post on here, see lupussonic for the gold standard in how it should be done, every detail on show, which is a brave thing to do. My personal standards are somewhat lower, going for a workboat finish is more than adequate for me due to time and money constraints. Soft wood and concrete has done the old girl for 60years so hopefully it will do for a few more.
I'll try and stick up more pics when I actually do something, and not sitting in an airport typing drivel, on a touch screen with tree stumps for thumbs.

[Don Z.]

As said, a pic should fix that.

Only sometimes. The other assumption, no matter how it looks, is that it has a hidden problem, or you've tried with little luck to sell it, and so you will walk away from it.

Places like Seattle, or Maine, tend to be "kinder" to wooden boats. Other places, less so.

I'm not saying it's logical, just that it is a problem.

[sdenette]

As a total newbie, living 2 hours from the coast and embarking on my first build (an Atkin Ingrid), I completely understand why more people don't embark on this journey and why someone like me would post on the forum about it.

It took me 6+ years of reading, haunting this forum and doing general research before I felt I even had a chance of pulling it off. Once I more or less understood what I would need to accomplish the goal it took another 2 years of preparation before I had enough ducks in a row to begin and that was starting with a decent wood shop.

Without this forum I would not be doing this, I don't know anyone who has built/worked on a dingy, never mind a heavy displacement cruiser! I post to seek guidance and to hopefully inspire some other folks to go for it. Lofting intimidated me but seeing other folks on the forum tackle it and succeed gave me confidence I could do it as well. So THANK YOU to those who have documented their journey.

I live on 48 acres of large White Pine and White Oak so other than the planking, masts and the keel timber (my trees ain't that big) I got all the wood for the cost of sweat and gasoline for the saws, tractor and mill. I also have a decent wood shop, grew up building barns and other large structures so tacking a big build is something I have seen/been a part of before. Obviously a timber frame barn is very different than a boat but a big undertaking none the less. Add on a flexible job, no significant other or kids, and having friends who are crane operators, truckers, metal workers, diesel mechanics... I have a lot of aid in my corner that a lot of other folks lack.

Cost is another big challenge. An iron keel would run me around $30,000 USD, I am going to pour my own lead keel so I need to find/buy 12,000lbs of lead in total. Even at $.50 a pound that is still a big chunk of change. Tack on building a container to smelt the lead in, the keel mold, the 7- 1 1/4" silicon bronze keel bolts, it ain't cheap just to get the ballast keel and lead keel done, never mind outfitting her! It's an expensive undertaking!

Logically it makes no sense at all. Thankfully I am insane, and logic does not factor into this dream.

I am asked every single day by multiple people (some of whom I don't even know) how the boat is coming, people have donated time and a significant amount of their money to help me get to this point. People love the dream, think it's so cool and inspirational, so many people are envious and have told me I am doing their dream, they just don't think it is possible for them to do it. I disagree with them but I can see why they think that.

The road blocks are real! If you gave younger folks ready access to the knowledge, space to build, time to build and materials and I think you would see a huge resurgence. But that is not the world we live in, at least in the USA.

Just my 2 cents.

[cstevens]

Seeing as I have been mentioned a few times on here, I guess a reply is in order.
It does seem that plank on frame boats are few and far between but they are out there, but as stated previously the people doing it are probably just getting on with it. Usually on there own which makes taking pictures a pita, ruins the flow and interupts my limited time that I have to play. There also seems a shift to Facebook which isn't great for finding old threads or valuable information, even I have crappy fb page for Incentive but I prefer to post on here, see lupussonic for the gold standard in how it should be done, every detail on show, which is a brave thing to do. My personal standards are somewhat lower, going for a workboat finish is more than adequate for me due to time and money constraints. Soft wood and concrete has done the old girl for 60years so hopefully it will do for a few more.
I'll try and stick up more pics when I actually do something, and not sitting in an airport typing drivel, on a touch screen with tree stumps for thumbs.

Sorry artif. Didn't mean to put you on the spot! "Just getting on with it" is a worthy approach for sure. My point, if I have one, was just that there is lots of work being done, on all sorts of boats, and that the OP's complaint reflects a bias for a certain elitism of craftsmanship that is but a very small part of our shared avocation. I love a good thread on trennels just as much as the next guy (well, maybe not as much as Ian M.), but for those of us with old fishing boats sometimes the craftsmanship has to take a back seat to keeping her afloat or making her functional for a family outing. And all the plywood S&G or SOF boats are no less interesting and rewarding for their lack of pine tar and oakum. Some great work being done there as well.

People come to wooden boats for many reasons it seems. Respect and admiration for tradition for sure. Craftsmanship. Aesthetics. A certain counter-culture appeal. And yes, a DIY, backyard, even "cheap" ethos. These approaches are not always aligned. But the person building a plywood boat in their garage is following a tradition that is no less venerable than that of the plank-on-frame builder. Building a boat quickly and with the most effective materials available is certainly the oldest tradition!

[Desert Rat]

There are some really great build threads here. Cracked Lid's documentation of his First Mate Argo helped me a lot in my little build. I don't think anything I'm doing is worth noting, compared to his, so I don't post much on my build thread because it's really not all that impressive.

So I guess what I'm saying is-- when there have been some really great documentation threads in the past, maybe people don't post because their work doesn't measure up.

That being said, I really liked the thread about the Dark Harbor knock-off. I'm sad he hasn't updated in a while. I also liked the thread about the Coot sharpie. Sad he didn't let us know how it turned out. Some of the wonder of the forum isn't about epic builds, but rather just the interesting lives of ordinary people, like Little Idea. Even if we don't build big impressive boats.

[artif]

Sorry artif. Didn't mean to put you on the spot! "Just getting on with it" is a worthy approach for sure. My point, if I have one, was just that there is lots of work being done, on all sorts of boats, and that the OP's complaint reflects a bias for a certain elitism of craftsmanship that is but a very small part of our shared avocation. I love a good thread on trennels just as much as the next guy (well, maybe not as much as Ian M.), but for those of us with old fishing boats sometimes the craftsmanship has to take a back seat to keeping her afloat or making her functional for a family outing. And all the plywood S&G or SOF boats are no less interesting and rewarding for their lack of pine tar and oakum. Some great work being done there as well.

People come to wooden boats for many reasons it seems. Respect and admiration for tradition for sure. Craftsmanship. Aesthetics. A certain counter-culture appeal. And yes, a DIY, backyard, even "cheap" ethos. These approaches are not always aligned. But the person building a plywood boat in their garage is following a tradition that is no less venerable than that of the plank-on-frame builder. Building a boat quickly and with the most effective materials available is certainly the oldest tradition!

Hey no problem.
As for ply composite boats, did I mention my passion for Wharram cats.

On the subject of trennals, I'm thinking of using them when I replace some of the deck planks, cheapskate that I am, it would certainly help withe the cost of fastenings mentioned earlier

[cstevens]

On the subject of trennals, I'm thinking of using them when I replace some of the deck planks, cheapskate that I am, it would certainly help withe the cost of fastenings mentioned earlier

And right on cue, here's a new thread on the subject, complete with treatise by Ian M.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...e-and-material

[Chip Chester]

I have an interest, which is why I spend time here. I have a boat -- your basic inland lake 16' Carver runabout from the 60s -- that doesn't need restoration. My dad took care of it, and I take care of it. Sure, there are little things that need occasional attention, and I'd like to fabricate a mahogany windshield and a transom "shelf" out back, and install the gauge package for the Honda 4-stroke, but the core 'woodness goodness' is there. No epoxy or fiberglas involved. I come here to learn how not to screw up when I approach these tasks. But my hope is to avoid the need for full-on restoration for awhile.

Chip

[woodpile]

Ever since they eliminated metal and wood shop in many of our Hi Schools, there are fewer and fewer young people that have any interest or ability to work in the trades. My grandson has his nose buried in his electronic games and could care less about boats or boat building.
Jay

Yep, it's a shame, fortunately people like Mike Rowe have seen it first hand with his show "Dirty Jobs", and is doing something about it, unfortunately, their aren't enough Mike Row's around to convince the young generation that there are rewarding alternatives to floating in cyberspace.

http://mikerowe.com/2016/03/2016work...arshipprogram/

[cstevens]

It's funny, I've been thinking recently that the WBF represents a huge renaissance in wooden boat building. When I was a kid people like Harold Payson and Phil Bolger were just starting to explore ways to make boat building more accessible. For options you had Glen-L and that was about it (and I spent many, many hours poring over their catalog looking at boats I wanted to build). Rudder magazine was gone, with their series of plans for the DIY set. WoodenBoat had been around for a few years and was starting to build a decent collection but it was all lapstrake and carvel. Catspaw dinghies and the like, with a few flat-bottom skiffs thrown in. Now we have an incredible selection of small boats that can be built by people of any skill range - from the CLC kits to the designs from Iain Oughtred, John Welsford, David Gentry and many, many others. And going larger you have Sam Devlin, Paul Gartside, Tad Roberts, George Buehler and so many other fantastic architects designing boats that are well within the reach of a DIY builder with reasonable skills. Then for those who are really committed to the traditional approach there is no shortage of designs available there either.

And beyond just the designs, whether you are working to an old Atkin plan or the latest boat from the board of a current designer there are vastly more resources available for information and support than we ever had in the past. Someone has built it before and posted a thread, and would be happy to provide advice. Or the designer is available and more than happy to provide guidance. We have plans. We have patterns. We have kits of varying sophistication. And we have guys like Jay who are willing to share their secrets on how to create the perfect edge molding. Try that with Frank Prothero or any of the old guys around Seattle in the early 80s. You'd get thrown out on your ear. You'd be lucky if they let you hang out in the shop to pick up a few tricks.

So tell me again about the decline in wooden boat building? I don't believe it for a second.

[lupussonic]

See lupussonic for the gold standard in how it should be done

I'll take that.

I strongly disagree with you.

But I'll take that.

Big wooden boats are doing it the hard way, thankfully there are enough insane people still around to get some done.

I have a wealth of friends in Cornwall who live on pilchard drivers, East coast smacks, old luggers, who rebuild, cruise and race them, like 20 people, 18 boats. They are strictly anti-internet because they live the life, and to 'show and tell' it would dilute and compromise their integrity. Proper boat gypsies who have an enormous amount of wooden boat and sailing knowledge. I respect that and do not infringe on their right to privacy.

If I did, the WBF would wet itself.

Me, I have no such pride.

Wooden boat building is alive and well in Cornwall.

[cstevens]

I'll take that.

I strongly disagree with you.

But I'll take that.

Big wooden boats are doing it the hard way, thankfully there are enough insane people still around to get some done.

I have a wealth of friends in Cornwall who live on pilchard drivers, East coast smacks, old luggers, who rebuild, cruise and race them, like 20 people, 18 boats. They are strictly anti-internet because they live the life, and to 'show and tell' it would dilute and compromise their integrity. Proper boat gypsies who have an enormous amount of wooden boat and sailing knowledge. I respect that and do not infringe on their right to privacy.

If I did, the WBF would wet itself.

Me, I have no such pride.

Wooden boat building is alive and well in Cornwall.

I've always wanted to visit Cornwall. Probably comes from reading too much Enid Blyton when I was a kid. And this secretive sect of luddites on old boats sounds like my sort of people, even if I do live in the world of the internet myself. Might need to make that a vacation destination this year.

[wizbang 13]

No Chris, That is not a vacation destination for you, it is a cruising destination. Your new bride sez so.

[cstevens]

No Chris, That is not a vacation destination for you, it is a cruising destination. Your new bride sez so.

Well, maybe not a cruising destination in the sense of sailing there - since I don't have a suitable boat, have no experience with blue water cruising and know that my bride is never going to go offshore to any distance from which she cannot see land, but:

http://www.shirecruisers.co.uk/narrowboat/cornwall.php

Hmmmm....

[wizbang 13]

Oh crap I am sorry , I mixed you up with the fellow building the ingrid in Mass.!
His boat being his new bride

[cstevens]

Oh crap I am sorry , I mixed you up with the fellow building the ingrid in Mass.!
His boat being his new bride

Ha! I wondered, especially since my bride is not so new after ten years of marriage

[sdenette]

Oh crap I am sorry , I mixed you up with the fellow building the ingrid in Mass.!
His boat being his new bride

Ill add it to the list, sounds like a place I would enjoy.
and you ain't wrong, does this mean I like them big and curvy? Haha

I am the guy building the Ingrid

[Sailor]

Don't tell her that. She's new every day and don't you forget it.

[wizbang 13]

Ill add it to the list, sounds like a place I would enjoy.
and you ain't wrong, does this mean I like them big and curvy? Haha


I am the guy building the Ingrid

Broad hips, Big t#ts and Beamy ships.
a little saying we Colin Archer types have

[sdenette]

Broad hips, Big t#ts and Beamy ships.
a little saying we Colin Archer types have

Love it! Haha