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Thread: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by sdenette View Post
    Ill add it to the list, sounds like a place I would enjoy.
    and you ain't wrong, does this mean I like them big and curvy? Haha


    I am the guy building the Ingrid
    Broad hips, Big t#ts and Beamy ships.
    a little saying we Colin Archer types have

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Broad hips, Big t#ts and Beamy ships.
    a little saying we Colin Archer types have
    Love it! Haha

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    As someone who read probably hundreds of threads on this forum before buying a plywood trailer sailer project, I'd say the reason no.1 I don't have an old decrepit Vertue, or similar "proper" wooden boat, is because you guys talked me out of it based on all the stories of failure and decades of work. I'd still like to own one later, but I'll work my way up. (Reason no.2 is I need more seahandling skills before sailing a proper yacht)

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Here you go, no need to leave sight of shore if you don't want http://www.classic-sailing.co.uk/
    And here is a good excuse to make the trip http://www.falmouthclassics.org.uk/r...ng-boats-2017/

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Well, maybe not a cruising destination in the sense of sailing there - since I don't have a suitable boat, have no experience with blue water cruising and know that my bride is never going to go offshore to any distance from which she cannot see land, but:

    http://www.shirecruisers.co.uk/narrowboat/cornwall.php

    Hmmmm....

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    WOW what a sound beating some of us are getting

    as stated above Manual Arts Education was deem'd outdated and has seen a serious decline since the late 80's(though not from lack of interest)

    the powers that were back then decided all our children needed to goto college and pursuing careers that involved working with their hands was demeaning

    ¿ a portion of the problem ?

    our living space has taken a huge hit as the population of our earth has exploded

    more folks in smaller homes on smaller lots with less n less space for projects involving/needing larger spaces

    actual manufacturing jobs have left our shores and folks who are adept at working with their hands are fewer by far

    with the emphasis on activities like "clutter ball" & "cheer"(sports for the very young) parents have less n less time for personal projects

    projects that can be realized in the space of a single car garage and completed after the kids goto bed are more n more appealing

    machining materials is beyond the skills and the equipment required is beyond the budget/space of the average parent/family, in the overall scheme of life

    simple tools and materials are about as much as the common hobbiest can afford and/or store(knot to mention find locally...)

    materials suitable for "fine boatbuilding" are becomming harder n harder to find n source and usually involve a $tiff $hipping co$t to acquire

    some tyme back the above mentioned designers realized a niche for younger families and would be builders BIG BOX STORE PLYWOOD and the science of glues/fasteners/processes was progressing rapidly

    plans for the GARAGE BUILDER began popping up and the chosen materials evolved to PLYWOOD & EPOXY

    with a lack of formal training and finely tuned skills some of the fears of the would be builder were alleviated to a great extent with these new concepts/designs/processes/materials...

    PLYWOOD IS FLAT(DUH) and many of the resulting projects had/have flat/slab sides & bottoms

    as tyme marched on multi-chined watercraft began popping up and more would be builders became a builders

    these noobies began realizing success and found themselves ON THE WATER in WOODEN BOATS they built with their own hands

    so what if their BOATS were made of PLYWOOD... THEY'RE ON THE WATER!

    my personal heritage involves a grandfather who as a fine surgeon built boats for relaxation and TO GET ON THE WATER

    dad said i was conceived in one of my grandfather's creations(mom wouldn't comment...)

    growing up we didn't have any extra $$ so we had to make what we needed/wanted

    i think i rememberize dad said the plans for our first boat build came from the above mentioned RUDDER MAGAZINE

    my first solo sailing experience was in a SLAB SIDED PLYWOODEN OPTI

    and we built our 1st ALCORT SAILFISH(wooden) from a kit in the livingroom

    the list goes on n on...

    YES WOODEN BOAT BUILDING HAS EVOLVED as has this and several other forums

    i am in the process of posting my 2nd thread devoted to building a small plywooden boat and from the hits i get on the counter i feel there must be some interest from readers of this forum

    the 1st was a PORTUGUESE DINGHY built stitch n tape

    the current build is a MINI MOUSEBOAT being built w/ semi traditional framing and using TITE-BOND III glue

    i try to represent my builds with actual experiences(good and not so good) and pics

    when folks realize they have the interest & wherewithal to create their own boat they too will wade in and start something

    with mine and other's posts to prod them along i hope many more individuals get in the game and build their own boat

    SLAB SIDED/PLYWOOD AND HELD TOGETHER W/ EPOXY & GLASS CLOTH

    once successful folks tend to keep on keeping on...

    EVERYONE appreciates the skills and devotion involved in tradionally built wooden watercraft AND we love seeing the pictures and reading about them(adventures in them, their builds, repairs and restorations)

    i just hope more folks will begin posting their projects(wooden watercraft and related projects) and inciting others to get off dead center and start making saw dust

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    If there are no more traditional boat building and restoration.....and no more plywood / epoxy ''kit'' boat building.......

    This magazine and forum will become ''fossil'' like dinosaurs.

    Plywood and epoxy boat building is probably the last chance to WBF before everyone go ''Computer gamer'', in other words, producing nothing.
    ''The work is teaching you the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Single-handed Sailor, 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world sailing race.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    I've been a "DIY" boat builder since I was a teenager.. way back in early 80's. I built a "traditional" small boat, but did not have the wisdom to understand that a carvel boat must be kept wet, so my dory was a big P.I.A. everytime I launched her (shrinking and NOT swelling). I moved on to plywood and experimented with the better solution for small boats that must be kept on trailers, clinker construction. Fast forward to having an income and keeping a traditionally carvel planked boat.. in a marina. In California, you have NO CHOICE. It MUST be Marina kept.. there are but one or two anchorages left in the state, and those are getting closed fast. The COSTs of Marina storage are high.

    So why so may epoxy/ply boats? Not hard to connect the dots, at least on the West Coast of USA. And obviously, plywood allows a much lower skill level to still achieve a functional boat.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    I don't think everyone will go computer gamer as you say. I think there will always be the outcasts such as many of us who simply WANT to build and do things the old way, hard way etc. Here's to hoping anyway.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor View Post
    I don't think everyone will go computer gamer as you say. I think there will always be the outcasts such as many of us who simply WANT to build and do things the old way, hard way etc. Here's to hoping anyway.
    I hope too. When I was younger, I remember there were many department stores and hobby stores selling ''plastic'' models (Boats, planes, cars, etc) as well as wooden scale model boats. Now how many models are available??? Revel company was a great name in plastic models. They are very rare if you can still purchase one of these models.??? People became computer games addick, killing electrons soldiers by millions.

    There are still hobbyist building nice models, but less (much less) than 20 years ago.

    I hope sincerely building boats (wooden boats) will last for years to come, don't matter if they are ''traditional'' or ''plywood epoxy'' built....

    I built my plywood epoxy 19 ft cruising sailboat, and I really enjoy everyday working on her.

    I find these days are great because we have the choice of many materials (Wood, steel, epoxy, aluminum, fibreglass, etc) to build our dreamboat.
    ''The work is teaching you the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Single-handed Sailor, 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world sailing race.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    There is also those committed builders who just want to get on with it quietly, and feel their time is much better spent in the build shed than bashing a keyboard. Big timber boats are pretty easy to pick up for little money.....but the time and costs to renovate or rebuild have gone up significantly in the last decade. Your spare time might be free, but many might be holding down 2 jobs just to make ends meet.....maybe thats where a reasonably quick and cheap ply and epoxy boat comes in?
    Small timber boats will burn through your wallet quite nicely too! (I don't mean the Chebacco shown, that's ply and epoxy and virtually maintenance free.)
    Last edited by Jamie Orr; 03-17-2017 at 03:08 PM.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    In the early days of pleasure boating, and lets face it 98% of the WBF are not workboat guys, boats were built in mostly wood and traditionally. Modern materials meant less maintenance, if you get a chance read some of the boating annuals from the pre and post war 2 period, it was expected as part of ownership to caulk and paint and haul and all the rest of it. Back to modern materials, ply glass and epoxy, foam and now carbon, you do not need to spend anywhere as much time on maintenance. If you happen to be an average guy with the money to buy a new boat then its a no brainer. Glass cannot be beaten on the maintenance front no matter what we say here on the WBF

    On that level timber boats traditionally constructed in affluent countries are affectations, hobbies if you will. Sure some will be built new but only on special order. I employed with an old boatbuilder on my planked boat and as we worked away I would rabbit on about red lead and copper and everything olde worlde and he would be very matter of fact about it. Red lead? thats all gone now he'd say we just use grey primer, as he looked at all the rivets holding the boat together, he would comment, "thats how we used to do things before we had good glue" every comment included a "we" as if he was speaking for professional boatbuilders in general. "Planked boats, caulking- thats all gone now, we don't bother with all that now" It made me realise that times do change and often for the better.

    I think that as long as there are trees then there will be classic timber boats but as the years roll on many boats from the boomtime era will end up in landfills as the cost and passion required to keep them going will just not be there anymore.
    whatever rocks your boat

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Orr View Post
    Small timber boats will burn through your wallet quite nicely too! (I don't mean the Chebacco shown, that's ply and epoxy and virtually maintenance free.)
    Yes!!! My 19 ft Sailboat cost me the same amount of $$$ as for a good used fibreglass craft...

    I had much pleasure to build my boat during 4 years.....but I appreciate more sailing her now...

    BTW why bother so much in renovating a boat and spend so much money while we can have pleasure by sailing her because of much less maintenance?
    ''The work is teaching you the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Single-handed Sailor, 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world sailing race.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    I have to say that as much as I want to build a wooden boat, I'm getting impatient since I haven't found what I want.
    So I almost bought a fiberglass 18' daysailor for $350.
    Stupidly I waited too long and its gone.
    Now I can choose something and build for 1+ years before I get to sail.

    I'd be happy building a Melonseed even though its not what i really want to sail.
    But I'm tired of no sailing.

    I'll probably keep looking for frozen snot so I can get out on the water.
    And it will take almost no maintenance.

    What can I do....

    FYI, I'm almost finished with a Microbootlegger tandem kayak for my daughter and son in law.
    I got an automotive place to shoot an automotive clear coat finish.
    You wouldn't believe the improvement in looks over my other varnished boats.
    Don't know if it will be worth it over time, but right now I really like it.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    I wanted to build Paul Gartside's Suprise in carvel - still do - I have the plans, a ton and a half of lead and enough oak for frames and floors. I'd already put down a deposit on the yellow cedar planking when I was introduced to an Atkins Florence Oakland, also in carvel with full cabin instead of cuddy, a woodstove and tiny inboard. That and back problems changed me from a builder to a fixer-upper.

    I've got to say though, that if I'd gone ahead I would not have posted my progress on the forum. I'd be spending far too much time explaining and defending my choices. I think there are far too many who stand ready to criticise for too many reason's, including what form of wood one uses. No one should be considered less woody for not being traditional, if the non-traditional weren't posting there wouldn't be much to read.

    However, I also want to add that I really appreciate the input from the long-time boat builders and experts, the Jays and the Bob's and the others whose names escape my senior brain at the moment. I revere the old methods enough to want to use them and still hope to do that, but maybe on a smaller scale now.

    Okay, I'm done.

    Jamie
    Last edited by Jamie Orr; 03-17-2017 at 06:50 PM. Reason: Damned autocorrect

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Orr View Post
    I think there are far too many who stand ready to criticise for too many reason's, including what form of wood one uses. No one should be considered less woody for not being traditional, if the non-traditional weren't posting there wouldn't be much to read.
    I agree
    ''The work is teaching you the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Single-handed Sailor, 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world sailing race.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Boy is this thread entertaining.
    Overpopulation destroyed the boatbuilding space. This probably means that every western country is not fighting natality rates under 2 and importing young workers to keep up the economy. And massive urbanization is a myth and the countryside is up and well full of young people dreaming to die on their grandparents farm in the middle of nowhere.
    Young people can not swing a hammer anymore and live before a PC. I guess that every customer of every big box store is over 50 and home improvement is not an all time favorite passtime, no sir. Must be so because they sure close big box stores right and left, and power tool sales are at an all time low.
    Shop class/arts & crafts education was sabotaged by the evil government in order to outsource manual labor "abroad". I guess CAM is a bad dream and the economy really needs shop class where you learn to hold a file correctly, adjust a plane iron by tapping it with a hammer, tune the carburetor by ear and the all time favorite, welding basketball hoops out of rebar. And don't forget that vocational schools don't exist anymore.
    This almost calls for taking the lords name in vain followed by a stiff drink.

    Cstevens described it real well in post #62. We now have a wealth of information available and help and support undreamed of "back in the day". Not to mention the resources needed to make everything happen. Or do you think that good boatbuilding timber was lying around for the taking 50 years ago?

    Let us be real here. Big wooden yachts are for rich people. Either you are rich in money and can afford to pay for the construction/refit and upkeep "bristol fashion", or you are rich in time and do it yourself the best way you can. It was true back then and it's true now. Anyone who says otherwise can go to a big classics regatta and see for himself.

    As for epoxy and plywood and even "non wood boatbuilding materials" why do you think they exist? Not everyone wants a boat that looks like it was designed 100 years ago. And many don't want to sand, varnish and paint every season. Not to mention the real benefits like light weight, dry bilges, trailer sailing and so on.

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    People are still tinkering and building things. Just different ways and sometimes different things. 3D print a boat? Just a couple of keystrokes to add fake woodgrain. Check out modern hotrodding of cars. It is the same thing, done completely different. The minihouse/van life self build stuff is popular. That crowd has noticed shantyboats. Boats have always been built out of what was available and that always changes. Traditional in the woodenboat magazine sense is a short snapshot in time considering how long we've been floating apes. Real wooden boat builders use fire, stone, and bone tools to hollow out log canoes.
    Quote Originally Posted by sailcanoefan View Post
    I hope too. When I was younger, I remember there were many department stores and hobby stores selling ''plastic'' models (Boats, planes, cars, etc) as well as wooden scale model boats. Now how many models are available??? Revel company was a great name in plastic models. They are very rare if you can still purchase one of these models.??? People became computer games addick, killing electrons soldiers by millions.

    There are still hobbyist building nice models, but less (much less) than 20 years ago.

    I hope sincerely building boats (wooden boats) will last for years to come, don't matter if they are ''traditional'' or ''plywood epoxy'' built....

    I built my plywood epoxy 19 ft cruising sailboat, and I really enjoy everyday working on her.

    I find these days are great because we have the choice of many materials (Wood, steel, epoxy, aluminum, fibreglass, etc) to build our dreamboat.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumars View Post
    Boy is this thread entertaining.
    Overpopulation destroyed the boatbuilding space. This probably means that every western country is not fighting natality rates under 2 and importing young workers to keep up the economy. And massive urbanization is a myth and the countryside is up and well full of young people dreaming to die on their grandparents farm in the middle of nowhere.
    Young people can not swing a hammer anymore and live before a PC. I guess that every customer of every big box store is over 50 and home improvement is not an all time favorite passtime, no sir. Must be so because they sure close big box stores right and left, and power tool sales are at an all time low.
    Shop class/arts & crafts education was sabotaged by the evil government in order to outsource manual labor "abroad". I guess CAM is a bad dream and the economy really needs shop class where you learn to hold a file correctly, adjust a plane iron by tapping it with a hammer, tune the carburetor by ear and the all time favorite, welding basketball hoops out of rebar. And don't forget that vocational schools don't exist anymore.
    This almost calls for taking the lords name in vain followed by a stiff drink.

    Cstevens described it real well in post #62. We now have a wealth of information available and help and support undreamed of "back in the day". Not to mention the resources needed to make everything happen. Or do you think that good boatbuilding timber was lying around for the taking 50 years ago?

    Let us be real here. Big wooden yachts are for rich people. Either you are rich in money and can afford to pay for the construction/refit and upkeep "bristol fashion", or you are rich in time and do it yourself the best way you can. It was true back then and it's true now. Anyone who says otherwise can go to a big classics regatta and see for himself.

    As for epoxy and plywood and even "non wood boatbuilding materials" why do you think they exist? Not everyone wants a boat that looks like it was designed 100 years ago. And many don't want to sand, varnish and paint every season. Not to mention the real benefits like light weight, dry bilges, trailer sailing and so on.
    Couldnt agree more, funny how in the old days everything was better!
    whatever rocks your boat

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    The future looks bright - even nerdy gamers can cut plywood...


  20. #90
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Anyone noticed that the "big" threads have dried up over the years, I may be wrong but most of the forum seems to be about ply and epoxy trailerables or small repairs. Are people not coming here or have the restorations dried up? Perhaps its a certain kind of low budget person that hangs around on internet forums but Ive noticed that the boats are getting smaller and there is a lack of traditional work being showcased.

    Interested to hear your comments.
    ‘can’t claim that my H28 rebuild is a “big thread”, but you’re adding fuel to the fire to get my finger out and get back into it......
    Larks

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    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
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  21. #91
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    (disclaimer) I am a long-time 'lurker' -- approximately since the Y2K era,and have recently joined the WBF, specifically to acknowledge the contribution to the Forum of Ian, with his MEG, and
    Jim Ledger with the Brewer Catboat and steering quadrant threads. I can recall Art Read's build thread, Ross and Barret Faneuf with their threads, and those of the Heart of Gold, Norm Messinger with Prairie Islander as well as the newer builds by J. Madison and Scottmac. All this is to say that, IMHO, there were many builds earlier, but I feel that many of the 'newer' builds are simply less documented (perhaps due to time or simple manpower constraints) As I noted in the catboat thread, I really appreciate the opportunity to 'look over the shoulder' of all who are building or repairing their projects. Keep it up, don't lose the enthusiasm, and to all, thanks for the opportunities to see how it is done..!!

    Rick

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by ThorBue View Post
    The future looks bright - even nerdy gamers can cut plywood...



    That is genius.
    I think with a ball mill, you could accomplish scarfs.
    With a backer, surrounding standoff and a modified sled (all easy to do), thicker members like casting patterns, window frames and many other pieces could be milled. And they are not limited to a small size like conventional home CNC setups.
    That would be fun to play with.
    Thanks for posting.

    Travis.
    Last edited by Zuri; 03-18-2017 at 03:03 PM.

  23. #93
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Interesting thread this. I've done a major rebuild on my boat, 28' ft carvel, much of it done in water. There was very little interest locally in this project. I'm naturally curious and would have been very impressed with some of the jobs I have done on the boat. I would very much liked to have started a thread and posted pics but the perceived technical difficulties, and a wish not to be flamed by experts, and a lack of confidence in my knowledge held me back. Since then, with generous assistance of some forumites, and the WB magazine, and a few books, I feel I've done ok. One of the retirement projects will be to collate the pictures and add text to the thread Resurrection of the Ghost. I guess what I'm saying is the restoration /construction threads are probably of more value to the armchair builder than necessarily a how to guide, with some wonderful exceptions of course. This is more so for the rebuilds as every boat is different. However, the inspiration value to the struggling builder/rebuilder is not to be discounted.
    the invisible man........

  24. #94
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    So, what's wrong with plywood boat???

    Because modern builders use plywood and epoxy (fibreglass) this seem to many purists to be offending the traditional boat building way, right?

    Well, if we consider wooden boat building in the past (1940 to 1970), companies like Owen, Chris-Craft to name only these companies were building boats from plywood. The only difference is that they didn't use epoxy (why?? - because epoxy was unknown , not available, not existing in that time).

    I uses epoxy when building my sailboat and I'm proud of it.
    This save lot of time in maintenance and more time in sailing.
    ''The work is teaching you the work'' : Bernard Moitessier.

    Single-handed Sailor, 1968-1969 Golden Globe Challenge, 1st around the world sailing race.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwaterline View Post
    Interesting thread this. I've done a major rebuild on my boat, 28' ft carvel, much of it done in water. There was very little interest locally in this project. I'm naturally curious and would have been very impressed with some of the jobs I have done on the boat. I would very much liked to have started a thread and posted pics but the perceived technical difficulties, and a wish not to be flamed by experts, and a lack of confidence in my knowledge held me back. Since then, with generous assistance of some forumites, and the WB magazine, and a few books, I feel I've done ok. One of the retirement projects will be to collate the pictures and add text to the thread Resurrection of the Ghost. I guess what I'm saying is the restoration /construction threads are probably of more value to the armchair builder than necessarily a how to guide, with some wonderful exceptions of course. This is more so for the rebuilds as every boat is different. However, the inspiration value to the struggling builder/rebuilder is not to be discounted.
    One of the truly great things about this forum has, for me anyway, been the generosity of sharing of successes and failures and, whether we heed them or not, I find that these "sharings" have been one of the greatest sources of guidance and inspiration aside from the very generous advice and comments from the forums true voices of experience.

    It is accepted that there are a number of somewhat opinionated “experts” ready to flame many of our efforts and there are others who may at times appear somewhat belligerent and bombastic in their opinions and advice, but they all add up to a wonderful host of information that it is up to us, as builders, repairers and restorers, to take or leave as suits our situations best.

    For me (NOT an armchair builder) the restoration and construction threads are the heart and soul of this forum and it would be nothing without them.

    (So what I’m saying Adrian, is get your finger out mate - we want, no....... NEED to see much more of Ghost and the terrific work that you have done on her ........... warts and all.)
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

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  26. #96
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    One of the truly great things about this forum has, for me anyway, been the generosity of sharing of successes and failures and, whether we heed them or not, I find that these "sharings" have been one of the greatest sources of guidance and inspiration aside from the very generous advice and comments from the forums true voices of experience.

    It is accepted that there are a number of somewhat opinionated “experts” ready to flame many of our efforts and there are others who may have at times some rather belligerent and bombastic in their opinions and advice, but they all add up to a wonderful host of information that it is up to us, as builders, repairers and restorers, to take or leave as suits our situations best.

    For me (NOT an armchair builder) the restoration and construction threads are the heart and soul of this forum and it would be nothing without them.

    (So what I’m saying Adrian, is get your finger out mate - we want, no....... NEED to see much more of Ghost and the terrific work that you have done on her ........... warts and all.)

    I'll second that. Adrian, you have a great boat and it's obvious that you have done some fantastic work on her. I'm with Larks - I want to see more!

    Cheers,

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Hopefully this forum has room for all of us.

    There are definitely things that come and go over time and people's recreational interests have gotten more diversified. Instead of picking one hobby that they could devote all their spare time and income to, people now have multiple hobbies and their kids do too. I'm not a young person, but divide my spare time between Search and Rescue, owning and running a small dog sled team and designing and building boats.

    Technology traps people inside, and the people most likely to be tinkering with real wooden boats may be the least likely to be online much. But really, I feel more accomplished doing a boat design on the computer (and later seeing it come to life in cardboard, and still later in plywood) than building those plastic warship (or plane) models that were so popular in my youth.

    In my relatively rural neck of the woods people still have sheds and space, know how work with their hands, and many work boats are wooden affairs slathered in fiberglass. These work boats get used recreationally, but few people build or use purely recreational wooden boats. In 16 years of living in Western Newfoundland I saw a person rowing a wooden boat once (seems to be more popular on the east coast). Plastic canoes and kayaks are more storable, transportable and ultimately cheaper, so more people have them. Probably >95% of people on this island live less than half an hour's drive from a serious body of water, and boating in general isn't as popular as it could be. Seems like the boating dream seems shinier to urbanites in the same way most mountaineering gear gets sold to people in the cities that go once a year and not the people living in the mountains. Maybe wooden boat building in general is still too close to work for people here to do for fun. I bet there are more skidoos and quads here than boats.

    A friend of mine in BC who learned to build Gartside boats with traditional methods at a boatbuilding school a number of years ago was wondering about my attraction to plywood instead of real wood. I came up with this:
    1. It is easier to get it to not to leak, especially when stored dry.
    2. You can hide all sorts of sins with epoxy and paint.
    3. plywood is so light for its strength that it is possible to bend it into cartoppable, yet capable shapes.
    4. You can pull the whole hull together in a few weekends after starting instead of building one mold or hanging one plank per day.
    5. If a design doesn't perform as expected you can more easily build another.
    6. Size and weight deter casual use unless you have it in the water all the time.


    I rowed a traditional Newfoundland punt once and found it just too heavy to be fun. At a wooden boat conference it took 8 men to carry a moderately-sized traditional dory out of the building and into the truck.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Perhaps we need to have a traditional methods forum, which will effectively get all the caulking hammer restorations, red lead recipes, copper rivetting, drawknives and adzes in one place. Be an awesome forum, and then at the same time kill the click bait Bilge out.
    whatever rocks your boat

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Perhaps we need to have a traditional methods forum, which will effectively get all the caulking hammer restorations, red lead recipes, copper rivetting, drawknives and adzes in one place. Be an awesome forum, and then at the same time kill the click bait Bilge out.
    Go for it! Might want to learn how to spell some of those important things first...

    If I sound ticked off, it's because I am.

    If you don't like the bilge - don't go there! But if it's so awful - why have you started non-boat threads there?

    If you don't want to read about anything that uses the word "epoxy" just leave the thread if you see it. I presume you're grown up enough to be able to figure this out?

    Here's the real solution - ask the moderator to add a banner to the top saying "Paul G. will approve of this thread". I'm sure he has nothing better to do & then your delicate sensibilities won't be offended.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  30. #100
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Go for it! Might want to learn how to spell some of those important things first...

    If I sound ticked off, it's because I am.

    If you don't like the bilge - don't go there! But if it's so awful - why have you started non-boat threads there?

    If you don't want to read about anything that uses the word "epoxy" just leave the thread if you see it. I presume you're grown up enough to be able to figure this out?

    Here's the real solution - ask the moderator to add a banner to the top saying "Paul G. will approve of this thread". I'm sure he has nothing better to do & then your delicate sensibilities won't be offended.
    I approve of your post although it has a few grammatical errors and contains an ad hominem. I have indeed posted in the bilge but I have noticed it often does not bring out the best in me or others. This is meant to be primarily a wooden boat forum and while I am sure there are those in the bilge who have no interest in wooden boats at all, it is damning to a "woodenboat foruim" to allow constant arguing and trolling so I cannot and will not support the bilge in future especially now that we have advertising.

    As for the traditional methods idea, you disagree?
    I have made my position clear I hope, I come here for the woodwork, the great resources in many areas but the forum has changed from a predominance of wooden boat aficionados to something else. I love wooden boats, would happily build again in ply, solid timber or composite however there is something marvelous about genuine traditional construction that seems to be fading way. If the sub 15 ply and epoxy builders predominate, the traditional guys will go elsewhere.
    whatever rocks your boat

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    "If the sub 15 ply and epoxy builders predominate, the traditional guys will go elsewhere."

    Perhaps the traditional guys ought to get off their duff and post something.

    Unfortunately for me, I was researching something ~16' to build for an everyday sailboat - while I looked for what I really want.
    But all I found (mostly) was plywood simple boats at a reasonable weight, a few strip planked boats at a reasonable weight, and traditional looking boats that weighed 3X more.

    Sorry, I don't want a heavy boat - no interest.

    Obviously there are boats that are better than what I found, but this was the general trend.

  32. #102
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    I approve of your post although it has a few grammatical errors and contains an ad hominem. I have indeed posted in the bilge but I have noticed it often does not bring out the best in me or others. This is meant to be primarily a wooden boat forum and while I am sure there are those in the bilge who have no interest in wooden boats at all, it is damning to a "woodenboat foruim" to allow constant arguing and trolling so I cannot and will not support the bilge in future especially now that we have advertisingT.

    As for the traditional methods idea, you disagree?
    I have made my position clear I hope, I come here for the woodwork, the great resources in many areas but the forum has changed from a predominance of wooden boat aficionados to something else. I love wooden boats, would happily build again in ply, solid timber or composite however there is something marvelous about genuine traditional construction that seems to be fading way. If the sub 15 ply and epoxy builders predominate, the traditional guys will go elsewhere.
    Well said Paul. It is an inditement that there now seem to be so many wooden boat related threads posted in the bilge rather than above decks in the clean air. It seems that more and more forum members don’t think anyone reads above decks anymore so feel it necessary to post in the bilge to get a viewing and responses - I've done it myself in the past when it’s appeared that a large majority of regular forumites only look into the bilge and nowhere else.


    I tend towards the opposite, I look at "new posts" and ignore the bilge for 95% of the time, just sticking my nose down there for a whiff once in a blue moon when I’m supremely bored and feeling brave.

    I do understand that some threads are posted as bilge sweeteners and I can see that they serve to remind the bilge dwellers that we are actually on a “Wooden Boat” forum, but I’m amazed to see so often just how many people here ONLY post in the bilge and do not contribute anywhere else on this forum.


    I disagree though about the
    If the sub 15 ply and epoxy builders predominate, the traditional guys will go elsewhere
    . I tend to think that the traditional guys are pretty generous in their judgement and knowledge and understand that we all start somewhere in our wooden boat building lives. Not everyone will progress from ply and epoxy, but it is the interest in building our own boats, rather than buying a moulded plastic boat from a production line, that unites us on the forum.
    Last edited by Larks; 03-22-2017 at 08:06 PM.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post

    . Not everyone will progress from ply and epoxy....
    I don't want to sound argumentative or unpleasant, so with respect, why suggest that the obvious progression flows from ply and epoxy to what, the more traditional?

    Reflect on it a bit. I would argue that many of us have owned carvel planked boats and maintained them in our youth, and for many of us the rational progression is to strip planking, or cold molded, with epoxy glues and coatings, and with care, even plywood.

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    This entire thread is based on a premise that I believe is invalid. The distinction between "plywood" and "traditional" is arbitrary and does not define anyone that I have encountered here. Leaving The Bilge aside as irrelevant, we all like boats. Preferably wooden ones. Little ones, big ones, old, new, plywood or planked or SOF. Some we like more than others. I like old workboats but I think yachts are pretty neat too, and I'd love a nice lapstrake or SOF double paddle canoe some day. Others members like Chris Craft cruisers, sail-and-oar craft, folkboats or six meters. That's fine with me too.

    Is there a "decline" in the manly art of steam bending 6" planks for a three-masted schooner? Maybe so. But if anyone wants to see more of that they are welcome to build one and start a thread on it. I'd like to see that happen too. In the meantime I think a distinction that trivializes the work of anyone who sets out to build a boat - large or small - misses the point about this whole wooden boat thing. Which is that it's not about entertaining the largest number of people on the forum, it's about building or restoring the boat that you like. And it seems to me that there are enough like-minded forumites to support pretty much any project. I have certainly found that to be the case with mine. And I appreciate that very much as it makes the work more enjoyable to think that other people might enjoy reading about it as well.

  35. #105
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    Default Re: Decline of Real Wood Building and Restoration Threads

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    Perhaps we need to have a traditional methods forum, which will effectively get all the caulking hammer restorations, red lead recipes, copper rivetting, drawknives and adzes in one place. Be an awesome forum, and then at the same time kill the click bait Bilge out.
    I love to read this forum. I tune in 5-6 times a day but rarely post. The strange thing is the first thing I do is hit "new posts" and it doesn't even bring up bilge threads. It really isn't even an issue unless you go looking for it so not sure it would be classified as click bait. If it was intended to be those threads would show up in new posts, too. I have looked a time or two but now happy to read the new content without even venturing there.

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