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Thread: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

  1. #1
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    Default Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    In Georgia, reaction to KKK banner is a sign of the times



    https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...a0b_story.html

    The town issued an official statement saying that “Dahlonega is a welcoming community for people of diverse backgrounds” and that “recent episodes are not indicative of a change in our character or philosophy.”

    The students called off the boycott and declared victory.

    And now it was a sunny afternoon on the town square.

    People were stopping by the candy shop, or wandering down the aisles of antique shops where Kenny G was playing through the speakers, or eating a sandwich across from the building where a KKK banner had been.

    “Yeah, it’s the site of one of the last major gold rushes,” a man standing on the square said to a woman, explaining what he knew about Dahlonega.

    “Do you have this in a large?” a woman asked at a T-shirt shop.

    Reverend Webb, home this afternoon, said he was heartened to see how so many people had taken a stand. “Dahlonega is a sacred place for everybody,” he said.

    At the same time, he said, the episode was not simply about the banner. To him, it was about a banner that had appeared after an election in which the new president had said certain things that had appealed to white nationalists and other hatemongers, whether he intended to or not, opening the door to events that could spiral out of control.

    “The atmosphere he’s created in America today has caused people to think they have some kind of power again,” he said. “I thought that before, and I still do.”

    Doles [white supremicist], who was out driving in his truck, said he agreed with this assessment. He had been on the way home from the gym when he first saw the banner and the flags, he said, and thought to himself, “It’s been a long time coming.” He said he had recently raised his own flag for the first time in years — the American one, because he finally feels pleased with the direction of the country.

    “In the last 50 years, I didn’t think we had the votes to elect a governor, much less a president,” Doles said. “And yet here we are today.”
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    I'm confused, is the banner being put up, or taken down?
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Taken down

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    I'm confused, is the banner being put up, or taken down?
    As always... reading the story helps a lot with comprehension...
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    As always... reading the story helps a lot with comprehension...

    Yes it does.
    Didnt have time toread it initially, but just did.
    First off I'm more proud of my fellow Georgians and their response to this than I am embarrassed by some pickup driving juicehead and his small band of followers.
    Dahlonega is not the sort of place you'd expect to see such a banner. It's a college town. Some great little eateries. In the surrounding hills are vineyards and winery's.
    But not too long ago it wasn't this way.The North Georgia mountains are very white, almost as white as Maine. They didn't support the plantation style of agriculture so slaves were not brought in in large numbers. The European immigrants were mostly Scots Irish as opposed to English in the southern and coastal parts of the state. Very independent and not accepting of outsiders.

    There still is to this day a small minority that cling to the old thinking. Some left the counties south of Dahlonega trying to escape the gentrification that a sprawling Atlanta has unleashed. Forsyth county mentioned in the article was really not a place you wanted to be after dark if you even had a good tan back in the 1980's. Today its a county of million dollar homes and Starbucks. The trailer parks are leaving along with their residents that tended toward the old way of thinking. They've headed north. Now Lumpkin county that contains Dahlonega is changing too, and the old guard once again feel threatened. Trump gave them a ray of hope, but it won't last. $$ is the great equalizer. Rising property values for the beautiful mountain vistas will once again clean the slate. It'll just take some time.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    Yes it does.
    Didnt have time toread it initially, but just did.
    First off I'm more proud of my fellow Georgians and their response to this than I am embarrassed by some pickup driving juicehead and his small band of followers.
    Dahlonega is not the sort of place you'd expect to see such a banner. It's a college town. Some great little eateries. In the surrounding hills are vineyards and winery's.
    But not too long ago it wasn't this way.The North Georgia mountains are very white, almost as white as Maine. They didn't support the plantation style of agriculture so slaves were not brought in in large numbers. The European immigrants were mostly Scots Irish as opposed to English in the southern and coastal parts of the state. Very independent and not accepting of outsiders.

    There still is to this day a small minority that cling to the old thinking. Some left the counties south of Dahlonega trying to escape the gentrification that a sprawling Atlanta has unleashed. Forsyth county mentioned in the article was really not a place you wanted to be after dark if you even had a good tan back in the 1980's. Today its a county of million dollar homes and Starbucks. The trailer parks are leaving along with their residents that tended toward the old way of thinking. They've headed north. Now Lumpkin county that contains Dahlonega is changing too, and the old guard once again feel threatened. Trump gave them a ray of hope, but it won't last. $$ is the great equalizer. Rising property values for the beautiful mountain vistas will once again clean the slate. It'll just take some time.
    poor people are not up to 'our' standards
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    ...back in the 1980's.

    It'll just take some time.
    How much?
    "Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." - Alice

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    David G., it's upsetting and it's disheartening. We're seeing it because to some degree the Trump phenomena "legitimizes" it, but we're also seeing it because reaction to the Trump phenomena has drawn increasing attention to it.

    It's difficult to ascertain people's true feelings on race relations. Obviously it doesn't work if you simply ask the question "are you racist?" But there are questions that you can ask that give a reasonable insight into how people really feel, and you can ask these questions over time to gain insight into how attitudes might be changing.

    I'll leave you with my response to you on a thread that you abandoned a few days ago. I believe change for the better has occurred over the last 50 years, and is occurring. I don't believe the Trump phenomena will derail it to the extent that answers to the key question asked below will reverse:


    QUOTE=Dave Wright;5182105]David G., I think you've given up on this one. Before I give up also, I'll post a few graphs which might indicate that Forsetti's judgement is off. I read a couple more of his pieces, particularly his views on racism beyond that of religious groups, and found them as rabid as the one of this thread. I believe there has been significant positive change.







    [/QUOTE]

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    David G., it's upsetting and it's disheartening. We're seeing it because to some degree the Trump phenomena "legitimizes" it, but we're also seeing it because reaction to the Trump phenomena has drawn increasing attention to it.

    It's difficult to ascertain people's true feelings on race relations.
    As I said - it's complicated.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    poor people are not up to 'our' standards
    Exactly...

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Exactly...
    Actually... I don't think so.

    Poor isn't the driving factor. Hateful is. One can be poor without being hateful. But, to be fair, being poor makes one more susceptible to a variety of maladies.
    David G
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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    As I said - it's complicated.
    Just how complicated is it? Are you looking for complications that are not borne out by the general trend?

    Look at the graph for white responses between 1995 and 1997. The increase in the slope is dramatic. White "approval" went from 45% to 61% and exceeded black "approval" of 68% to 77%. Do you have any thoughts on this? The mega national drama of 1995 was O.J.'s trial and acquittal. According to surveys blacks were generally pleased; large numbers of whites were dismayed by the verdict. The white wife was killed by the black husband, playing into all sorts of stereotypical myths, yet approval of interracial marriage by whites went up more than ever.

    Was this a survey error, a mistake? Were respondents lying? Something else? What do you think?

    How about the 2003 to 2004 approval jump by whites? Can you think of anything happening then?

    Bubba might be reluctant to say the socially unacceptable "I hate those people," but I contend that if he's truly a bigot, that he doesn't have as much reluctance to voice his disapproval of mixed marriage. Just look at the percentages of replies, and look at them for the various age groups. I see an optimistic trend, you see complications. So I ask you, why is that?

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    Just how complicated is it? Are you looking for complications that are not borne out by the general trend?

    Look at the graph for white responses between 1995 and 1997. The increase in the slope is dramatic. White "approval" went from 45% to 61% and exceeded black "approval" of 68% to 77%. Do you have any thoughts on this? The mega national drama of 1995 was O.J.'s trial and acquittal. According to surveys blacks were generally pleased; large numbers of whites were dismayed by the verdict. The white wife was killed by the black husband, playing into all sorts of stereotypical myths, yet approval of interracial marriage by whites went up more than ever.

    Was this a survey error, a mistake? Were respondents lying? Something else? What do you think?

    How about the 2003 to 2004 approval jump by whites? Can you think of anything happening then?

    Bubba might be reluctant to say the socially unacceptable "I hate those people," but I contend that if he's truly a bigot, that he doesn't have as much reluctance to voice his disapproval of mixed marriage. Just look at the percentages of replies, and look at them for the various age groups. I see an optimistic trend, you see complications. So I ask you, why is that?
    How complicated is it? I'm not sure one could answer that except by writing a research paper... or with one word: enough.

    Any thoughts? Yup: it's complicated.

    But I'm confused by both of your posts. I get the impression that you - on little to no basis - have me taking a position that I'm not. And that you disagree with that position. Perhaps before arguing against that position, you should state what you hear me saying and confirm that you heard me correctly. You mentioned a prior thread 'abandoned'. I didn't give up on the thread, just gave up, after several attempts, efforts to get across to you what I was saying. You were the only only with the misapprehension... but seemed quite attached to it. Your comments here are shaping up the same way.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    poor people are not up to 'our' standards
    Yeah, well those poor people put Trump in office so......
    Just because you are poor doesn't mean you have to be stupid or gullible. Instead many of them chose to blame somebody (usually that doesn't look like them) for their lot in life.

    And the old £itch that put the banner up in the first place isn't poor. She owns a good chunk of the town. What's sadly ironic is that she owns businesses there, and wants to start a hotel. Both of which require people with disposable income.
    How celebrating the klan helps her cause is a bit of a riddle. It'll run the people off that have the $$.
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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    How complicated is it? I'm not sure one could answer that except by writing a research paper... or with one word: enough.

    Any thoughts? Yup: it's complicated.

    But I'm confused by both of your posts. I get the impression that you - on little to no basis - have me taking a position that I'm not. And that you disagree with that position. Perhaps before arguing against that position, you should state what you hear me saying and confirm that you heard me correctly. You mentioned a prior thread 'abandoned'. I didn't give up on the thread, just gave up, after several attempts, efforts to get across to you what I was saying. You were the only only with the misapprehension... but seemed quite attached to it. Your comments here are shaping up the same way.
    I'm sorry that I've apparently pushed you into some uncomfortable position,or misinterpreted your position - that was not my intent. I'm not trying to achieve strife. I guess I assumed you posted both the article here, and the other one from Forsetti the other day, because you weren't optimistic about many issues, and perhaps shared to some extent the negative take on race relations (and religion) put forward rabidly by Forsetti, and hinted at in this OP Post article. I guess I was feeling, without thinking about it much, that you picked (and often pick) articles that maybe express a personal sense of gloom and reflect unfortunate happenings. I'm sorry for doing that. My personal view is that optimism and progress are the only rational paths in these matters.

    If you go back to the original thread on the Forsetti article in November, I think you can find others who expressed feelings similar to mine with regards to the accuracy of Forsetti's judgement. My attachment then, is following through from that article to the current article in this thread, and asking myself if I should be pessimistic and feeling hopeless about the state of race relations in this country? There are so many ways of looking at the situation, and unfortunately I think, the ascendancy of Trump has produced defeatist attitudes. I dislike the man very much and have trouble considering his election as anything but a disaster, but we will soldier on and he will not be able to bring the country down, especially in the area of race relations.

    I will leave on the note that Mississippi, I believe, had the highest rate of racially mixed marriages in the past decade or so (agreed they are not that numerous, but the RATE is higher than anywhere else in the country). Something to consider when you note that the Supreme Court decision in 1967 just legalized mixed marriage for most of the Southern states. That's progress, no matter how tough times were and still can be, and something that we should reflect upon here when we so often discuss race relations and so often post examples of problems in the South.

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Dave,

    Yes, it appears you have misread my overall stance on such matters.

    For me... the Forsetti piece was a piece of sociology, with some analysis I regard as accurate. I qualified it from the very beginning as being a bit over the top - which I mentally put down to his likely having suffered some emotional trauma in that setting, which he hadn't gotten over. I wasn't endorsing his angst, hyperbole, and negativity, just the facts behind it - while making allowances for his trauma.

    As for this one - my only point was: it's complicated. As in - not susceptible to easy answers and facile commentary. But that this was one more example of that racist faction (however small they may be) feeling emboldened.

    Perhaps what you are interpreting as pessimism is my contention that we have - in the U.S. and beyond - failed to do the regulation of capitalists that capitalism requires to function in a productive way. I have been making that argument for many years. Including writing it here since 2008. And arguing that we needed a correction. A re-assertion of regulation, if we wanted to avoid trouble. The longer we waited, the worst the trouble. And so it has come to pass. We have waited far too long, and show few signs of doing what is necessary. Most of what I imagine you perceive as negativity is me posting examples of the consequences of that failure.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...42#post1772742

    But I remain, overall, optimistic. I think that the institutions in place will - eventually, grindingly, creakily - wheel into position, and stop the demagogues. Until they do, though, I shall continue to point out the fallout, and call out for a correction. It really IS threatening to be an existential issue here. If people would rather not be reminded of that... if they'd prefer to keep up a happy front and ignore the increasing examples of dysfunction... maybe they should steer clear of my posts.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Poor isn't the driving factor. Hateful is. One can be poor without being hateful. But, to be fair, being poor makes one more susceptible to a variety of maladies.
    Yeah, well those poor people put Trump in office so......
    Just because you are poor doesn't mean you have to be stupid or gullible. Instead many of them chose to blame somebody (usually that doesn't look like them) for their lot in life.
    As I've noted elsewhere on the forum, I've come to believe that long-term poverty is not just a matter of not having enough money. It's a cultural phenomenon in our country. Compare the folks in this country whom we think of as "poor" with the "poor" of, say, Brazil, who live in the favelas with only a cardboard carton to call a home.

    As Reynard38 points out, a significant subset of our "poor" will vote against their best interests if they believe that those they consider inferior to themselves will suffer more than they. In Ukraine, they tell the joke (on themselves) that given a bushel of apples, a Pole would set up alongside the road to sell them, where a Ukrainian would take a bite from each apple in the bushel, that no one else might benefit from them.

    I think what we're looking at here is a cultural divide in this country that is only now coming to light. I voted for Obama in 2008 in part because I thought that he might stimulate the race riot that was simmering in this country. Obama was the catalyst for this, and Trump merely represents the lid of the pressure cooker passing through the kitchen ceiling. It's coming along nicely, now.

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by webishop14 View Post
    I think what we're looking at here is a cultural divide in this country that is only now coming to light. I voted for Obama in 2008 in part because I thought that he might stimulate the race riot that was simmering in this country. Obama was the catalyst for this, and Trump merely represents the lid of the pressure cooker passing through the kitchen ceiling. It's coming along nicely, now.
    Channeling that great philosopher George Carlin. I love it!
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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by webishop14 View Post
    As I've noted elsewhere on the forum, I've come to believe that long-term poverty is not just a matter of not having enough money. It's a cultural phenomenon in our country.

    I think what we're looking at here is a cultural divide in this country that is only now coming to light.
    You might notice the segregation the federal government has promoted since the 60's. Some people might think that has something to do with it.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Exactly...
    and so they must be moved out of our sight
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    and so they must be moved out of our sight
    Well, I have a mirror.
    "Poor" people are always going to be right in front of me.

    What do you think "Rich" is today? I'm thinking an annual income in the low seven figures might qualify, you know maybe $5k per day.

    "Wealth" is something very different.

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Well, I have a mirror.
    "Poor" people are always going to be right in front of me.

    What do you think "Rich" is today? I'm thinking an annual income in the low seven figures might qualify, you know maybe $5k per day.

    "Wealth" is something very different.
    Here you go - one definition: https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/h...174020565.html
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Well, I have a mirror.
    "Poor" people are always going to be right in front of me.

    What do you think "Rich" is today? I'm thinking an annual income in the low seven figures might qualify, you know maybe $5k per day.

    "Wealth" is something very different.
    being rich is being able to make rent, groceries, fuel costs and car payments every month... that is rich to poor people
    Last edited by Phillip Allen; 03-13-2017 at 08:46 PM.
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    How did this thread get off on poor people. The sign was put up by a rich white woman that lives in a mansion and owns a good bit of the town. She is upset because the town doesn't want her to tear down a historic building downtown and put a hotel in it's place. It wouldn't surprise me at all if that building really was used for KKK meetings back in it's day, although 20 years ago, the black population of the county was close to zero and in the 2010 census was only 1.1% black. During the Civil War, many of the people of north Georgia were Republican supporters of the North, today there are a good many Republican KKK supporters up there.

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    This thread brought to you by the Economic. White gated communities of Liberal run Portland where no blacks are " allowed " to live as home steading poor black neighborhoods worked like a charm driving them out with high home prices allowing more liberal white liberals to invade and overtake..Gotta be near the cities core for fine dining , arts. Casual protests, wine tasting, brew pubs, head shops, etc.

    Thus white liberals look for racism elsewhere to get rid of guilt..

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    "Middle class" is hardly "Rich"
    Really average is how I would describe it. And you aren't getting a mortgage around here with only a $55k income, unless you can put down $2 or 300k...

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    This thread brought to you by the Economic. White gated communities of Liberal run Portland where no blacks are " allowed " to live as home steading poor black neighborhoods worked like a charm driving them out with high home prices allowing more liberal white liberals to invade and overtake..Gotta be near the cities core for fine dining , arts. Casual protests, wine tasting, brew pubs, head shops, etc.

    Thus white liberals look for racism elsewhere to get rid of guilt..
    thank you
    The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.
    Personal failures are too important to be trusted to others.

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    Default Re: Georgia KKK sign: it's complicated

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbys View Post
    This thread brought to you by the Economic. White gated communities of Liberal run Portland where no blacks are " allowed " to live as home steading poor black neighborhoods worked like a charm driving them out with high home prices allowing more liberal white liberals to invade and overtake..Gotta be near the cities core for fine dining , arts. Casual protests, wine tasting, brew pubs, head shops, etc.

    Thus white liberals look for racism elsewhere to get rid of guilt..
    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Allen View Post
    thank you
    So Bobby, you're saying moving to Portland is perfect for low information Trump supporters?

    Fake news...
    And where is this coming from you ask? The Manhattan Institute, a conservative think tank with the goal of disseminating false and misleading information based on speculation and skewed polls. The sole purpose being to hood wink low information voters and have them spread the rhetoric.
    It's working... We have evidence.

    Astoria has a 1.3% black population yet Portland is 6% (disputing alternative facts is like shooting fish in a barrel)
    Hypocrisy rules
    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 03-14-2017 at 10:47 AM.

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