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Thread: Riveted copper keel fastenings

  1. #1
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    Default Riveted copper keel fastenings

    I'm just about ready to fasten the centreline components of my Oughtred Tammie Norrie. I have some 1/4 inch copper rod, which I planned to rivet at both ends over copper rooves. The lower end would be riveted into an inverted roove placed in a countersink, the upper end over a roove normal way up.

    Doing a dry run of this process, I found it was not as simple as it sounds. I battered the end into the inverted rivet ok, but it splayed into ugly crows feet. I then thought I should perhaps anneal the copper first. Can anyone advise me from experience?
    Last edited by Jonatham Reynolds; 03-06-2017 at 10:39 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    Yo do not need to rivet both ends over roves, as it is simple enough to head up copper rod in a vice. Making a die by drilling a 1/4 hole through a lump of steel, then sawing through into the hole so that closing the vice jaws causes it to clamp the rod will stop the vice from necking the shaft.
    Annealing might help, but the trick is lighter blows with the ball pein end of the hammer.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    Thanks, Nick. I'd already made such a former from oakwood, which is durable enough for a few such fastenings. My chief problem was the splitting of the hammered copper.

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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    I think that you now have two tests/experiments in store for you. The first is to anneal a sample of the rod and try again. If you get good results, then you know annealing was needed. Second, use the same rod, don't anneal it, and use lighter taps with the hammer. And I mean taps, not blows. The results will teach you something else. Third (I lied… there's always more to fuss with.) try it again with light taps and annealing. Congratulations! You are now a riveting man.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    OK, as I said lighter blows aimed in slightly to and from the side, rather than square down on the centre of the top.; That way you push the metal together as it forms the head.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    I would just thread both ends and use Silicone bronze nuts and washers.

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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    I would just thread both ends and use Silicone bronze nuts and washers.
    Ditto! A lot easier to remove if the need ever arises.

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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    And easier to control the tension.

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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Yo do not need to rivet both ends over roves, as it is simple enough to head up copper rod in a vice. Making a die by drilling a 1/4 hole through a lump of steel, then sawing through into the hole so that closing the vice jaws causes it to clamp the rod will stop the vice from necking the shaft.
    Annealing might help, but the trick is lighter blows with the ball pein end of the hammer.
    or like this . Put a shim of Coke can aluminium between the 2 steel sections to give a clearance to allow clamping in your vise when you bore the holes. The die on the right was for making up 3 1/2'' dumps ....short copper spikes.

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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    I,Ve made many copper fasteners for my boat. Assuming you have the extruded copper rod that is already hard. You will need a die, something like the above. I made dies out of 1" square bar, drilled and countersunk one end, holes for 2 roll pins (for location), cut in half with hacksaw and the roll pin holes drilled next up in one of the halves. Not really sure if the roll pins were needed but it felt better they were there. Made dies for 1/4, 5/16 & 3/8. 1/4 wont need annealing. The dies have to be clamped fairly hard in a good vice. There should be only minor splitting with a mushroom shaped head. A decent washer under the head is a must. I would run a thread on the other inside end and use a nut and washer. I've tried to peen a copper rod on both ends in situ, doesn't go as easily as you might think. If you must anneal a copper rod, only do the ends and do it quickly. A fully annealed copper rod will be very soft and useless.
    the invisible man........

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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    The reason for using cooper as a fastener, is that you can make-up the rivet faster then threading both ends of the stock.
    The problem I see is that you are trying to make the head too big.
    The amount of shank protruding is critical. If you are getting "crows-footing" then it is too long.
    After awhile you get a feel for the length. I found that a little less then the diameter of the rod, in your case -1/4" after the rove is "set".
    The heat developed when peening, anneals the copper enough to soften it.
    http://www.faeringdesigninc.com/instruct.html
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faK7BZZED_s
    My 2 cents worth. Cheers.

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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    Quote Originally Posted by maxwaterline View Post
    I,Ve made many copper fasteners for my boat. Assuming you have the extruded copper rod that is already hard. You will need a die, something like the above. I made dies out of 1" square bar, drilled and countersunk one end, holes for 2 roll pins (for location), cut in half with hacksaw and the roll pin holes drilled next up in one of the halves. Not really sure if the roll pins were needed but it felt better they were there. Made dies for 1/4, 5/16 & 3/8. 1/4 wont need annealing. The dies have to be clamped fairly hard in a good vice. There should be only minor splitting with a mushroom shaped head. A decent washer under the head is a must. I would run a thread on the other inside end and use a nut and washer. I've tried to peen a copper rod on both ends in situ, doesn't go as easily as you might think. If you must anneal a copper rod, only do the ends and do it quickly. A fully annealed copper rod will be very soft and useless.
    and it's worth mentioning that to anneal copper heat and quench, the opposite of steel.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    and it's worth mentioning that to anneal copper heat and quench, the opposite of steel.
    Surely you don't mean that with steel you quench then heat?

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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    and it's worth mentioning that to anneal copper heat and quench, the opposite of steel.
    Quenching is not mandatory. Just quicker.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  15. #15
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    Default Re: Riveted copper keel fastenings

    Thanks to all who advised above. I succeeded! Six good rivets with 5/16" copper rod is the total of my experience, but in case anyone else ends up on this page in the same puzzlement that I was, what worked for me for was:
    1. Use a light hammer and expect each rivet to take several minutes.
    2. At the end you want to rivet, first beat the edges with light taps at 45 degrees.
    3. Then try to smear the copper down from the centre to the edge. Make a strike near the centre, then chase it down to the edge with successive light taps. Do this all round the head. The head soon has many facets like the eye of an insect. I expected to be using the ball end of the hammer, but actually the flat end works better. Slow progress is good.
    4. Keep tapping round the edge at intervals as the head forms, otherwise it becomes edge-bound and splits into crows feet.
    5. My query about annealing was a red herring: because of the high conductivity of copper it was impossible to restrict the softening effect to the end to be riveted, and the result was a rod that bent too easily when driven.
    6. When you have greased and driven the 'nail', and want to rivet the other end, make sure the first end is cramped down onto a piece of heavy (8mm or more) metal plate, or (less good) hold a lump hammer up against it.
    7. What has been said on other threads about boring holes straight is true: twist drills and auger bits have a will of their own and lead to tears. After confirming this, I used a carpenter's brace, and a long spoon bit from a comprehensive set by Marples (Sheffield) that I picked up covered in rust in the 1970s for 50p. In those days everyone was chucking out hand tools, but I was planning to build a boat one day... (Unfortunately earning a living got in the way for a few decades.) The 'spoon' (really tubular) bit did not clear the hole very well, tending to leave a core in place. To clear that I used a bit with a similar tubular shape, but with a cutting lip at the end. I have several braces, so it was easy to switch. In both cases I used a laser plumb-line to keep the bit vertical, leaving me to worry only about keeping the bore on the centre-line. Beware that second-hand braces are often bent. The limitation of these bits is that they will only drill up to 6" holes.

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