are we crazy not to try Epoxy alternatives?!

[MN Dave]

One of these days, pDCPD might be available in a more user friendly formulation.
http://www.compositesworld.com/artic...-proxima-pdcpd

Actually, we have to refer to the MSDS to cover this material, because as far as I can tell, the manufacturer doesn't list all of the ingredients and their proportions. I've heard some call it "green washing." But, if it floats your boat, what the hell, go for it.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...Kx_WCF_GRw28Ig

Having had to read and catalog the ingredients in every MSDS for the chemicals used by several aerospace companies (what a PITA), I kinda learned to recognize what they are trying to obscure. The Ecopoxy MSDS isn't great, but doesn't really hide anything toxic, just leaves out anything non-toxic. The soybean oil derivative mentioned in the advertising rubbish is apparently non-toxic so it does not have to be listed, so they can legally skip it. Take a look at West system's MSDSs and you will find the same or similar ingredients, just spelled right and using more accurate descriptions. Can't say what the misspelled "FLORA MICROBILE OIL" is doing there. Of course near 0% is less than 15%, so who knows?

Bottom line, it is a plain old bisphenol A epoxy just like almost all of the others we are familiar with. Get it on your skin too many times and you will develop an allergy.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/MSDS/MSDS105.pdf
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/MSDS/MSDS205.pdf

On the plus side, they have a potable water tank coating. That takes some testing to get certified, so it should be somewhat safer than ignoring West's mildly worded advice not to use their resin for water tanks. The other plus side is that it seems to be more readily available in Canada, which might help our frozen friends who think that Minnesota has a warm southern climate.

[Dave Wright]

Bottom line, it is a plain old bisphenol A epoxy just like almost all of the others we are familiar with. Get it on your skin too many times and you will develop an allergy.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/MSDS/MSDS105.pdf
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/MSDS/MSDS205.pdf

.

Yes, that's correct.

I also noticed at least one supplier touting his bisphenol A free epoxy, telling us that we're safe from toxic bisphemol A. Of course his epoxy has bisphenol S or B, and it turns out that these bisphenols wind up in concentrations in humans similar to the A concentrations. The adverse effects are very likely similar too, but salesmen continue to find customers.

[MN Dave]

Yes, that's correct.

I also noticed at least one supplier touting his bisphenol A free epoxy, telling us that we're safe from toxic bisphemol A. Of course his epoxy has bisphenol S or B, and it turns out that these bisphenols wind up in concentrations in humans similar to the A concentrations. The adverse effects are very likely similar too, but salesmen continue to find customers.

"The thing is that Mr. Dibbler can even sell sausages to people who have bought them off him before."
-- Now that's marketing (Terry Pratchett, Moving Pictures)

Three?

[Daniel Noyes]

The one he said he is putting a fiberglass and epoxy bottom on and sealing knots with epoxy?

the one I am searching for an epoxy alternative to do the bottom with and hit the knots with... the one that has 8 plank scarfs on the entire hull with 2 pumps of epoxy per scarf... 16 pumps of epoxy in the whole 20' ocean going hull ... so far.




actually the TIII experiment with fiberglass cloth is looking awesome, need to try it again with a larger pice but if the second test goes as well I will be experimenting with glass and TIII on the bottom and garboard rather than epoxy...

please stay tuned!

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...778-Centennial

[Daniel Noyes]

Come back on with your pine dory in 35 years and ask that question again.

the original is 140 years old... I could say "come back with your lapped ply boat in 140 years"...

[upchurchmr]

What do you mean - the test looks awesome?

I hope you are not going to test by looks?
How are you going to test the strength?

How about a picture.

[newboatgal]

Daniel , I appreciate what you are doing and thanks for posting. I wish those who don't agree would just turn the page.

[upchurchmr]

I wish he would just show us how good it is.
There is always something to be learned.

This might be it.

[Greg Nolan]

Modern epoxy is 100% bio degradable all any one needs to do is look at the effect of UV on unprotected epoxy. Are we to believe modern fiberglass boats are more dangerous than wooden boats to the environment . . .

Epoxy in composit fiberglass consturction is amost always well-protected against UV by pigments added to, or at least covering, the epoxy. In such use, it is hardly bio-degradable. Also not bio-degradable if well-buried in a landfill -- maybe after a couple of centuries is will degrade, but it is not something you want to add to your compost pile. And of course, the glass itself is not at all bio-degraadable -- glass, in whatever form, is just about forever, And both the manufacture of glass and the shaping of glass consume huge amounts of energy. I know little about the manufacturing of epoxy, but I assume some amount of energy is expended in making the stuff. Certainly wooden boat-building over the last 500 years used a pretty good amount of wood -- but sompared to houses, furniture, and paper, has it really been that much? I suspect that the long term impacts of 500 yeafs of fiberglass boat construction, including the environmental costs and impacts of the manufacture of the materials, will be substantially greater than the long term environmental impacts of centuries of wooden boat building.

[JimConlin]

Is the longevity of FRP such a problem?
There are a couple of FRP boats in my family that are over fifty years old and still functioning nicely and they might well see another fifty.
Not many wooden boats reach half that age.

[MW Jones]

Epoxy was developed and is still used to line steel cans, and are safer longer lasting than tin cans with lead seams. That is not to say that the process of using epoxy is risk free, but fully cured epoxy has minimal health risks. With both traditional boatbuilding materials and contemporary products- cleanliness and efficient use of materials is critical to the safe handling of toxic materials. Avoid getting uncured epoxy (paint, bedding compounds, oil, etc.) on skin and clothing, do not use solvents to clean materials from your skin, use soap/hand cleaner.

We should avoid creating more waste in all aspects of our lives.

[Steamboat]

Daniel-
Epoxy can be Plant-based. I use Ecopoxy for my boats; although it has more to do with being able to have it shipped by mail to my house, than it's environmental advantages...
Works just like the system three I used to use.

Rick

I fear the environmental advantages of 'plant based' epoxy is largely marketing. Besides, once polymerized it is pretty innocuous unlike red led.

[Daniel Noyes]

Daniel , I appreciate what you are doing and thanks for posting. I wish those who don't agree would just turn the page.

thanks! don't feel too bad about the push back thats part of why i post here, if everyone just agrees, I learn alot less.

[Daniel Noyes]

What do you mean - the test looks awesome?

I hope you are not going to test by looks?
How are you going to test the strength?

How about a picture.

I mean the glass is tight to the wood with all weave filled and a matte finish... it looks like I vacume bagged it. I think the tape I used is 4 oz cloth...

when i try to peel it off beginning with a loose un wetted corner it begins to rip along the weave rather than pull off, then the glass parts rather than the piece peeling off...

[Daniel Noyes]

Epoxy was developed and is still used to line steel cans, and are safer longer lasting than tin cans with lead seams. That is not to say that the process of using epoxy is risk free, but fully cured epoxy has minimal health risks. With both traditional boatbuilding materials and contemporary products- cleanliness and efficient use of materials is critical to the safe handling of toxic materials. Avoid getting uncured epoxy (paint, bedding compounds, oil, etc.) on skin and clothing, do not use solvents to clean materials from your skin, use soap/hand cleaner.

We should avoid creating more waste in all aspects of our lives.

I have no concerns about the cured resin, I just despise working with the goop... and I am already living in a 3 room house with the thermostat set at 45 and drive a 510 CC motorcycle wherever practicable.... so as a boatbuilder the next logical frontier is Epoxy Resins!

oh also if you get epoxy on your skin the best way to clean up before it hardens is Vinegar, youll stink but it's very non toxic!

[upchurchmr]

Older motorcycles are usually worse on emissions / mile than a modern car.
Shame on you.

[earling2]

I don't know if this was covered yet but they're calling it "biodegradable" resin---

Incredible boat anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSQJPvE86-w

[sailnstink]

actually the TIII experiment with fiberglass cloth is looking awesome, need to try it again with a larger pice but if the second test goes as well I will be experimenting with glass and TIII on the bottom and garboard rather than epoxy...

please stay tuned!

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...778-Centennial

I built a Bolger brick out of crap plywood and the outer veneer split and raised in sections. Repaired it using TIII and fiberglass window screen mesh. Not the whole bottom just sections most were around 10" x 10" Laid the mesh on, filled halfway with TIII, let dry for half an hour and added a second layer. Boat was left outside, abused, and the patches lasted several years, were still good when the boat was bonfired. Also I have done very small fillets with TIII and flour. Has to be really thin, thick TIII will skin over and stay soft. The fillets were not structural, just done to keep water out, no idea if a TIII fillet adds strength. TIII is a lot more useful than it gets credit for.

[Daniel Noyes]

Older motorcycles are usually worse on emissions / mile than a modern car.
Shame on you.

2008 fuel injected Husqvarna.
oh it's great on gas and a ton of fun... but it is a bit of a gas snob only sipping from the finest (highest octane) vintage.

[Daniel Noyes]

I built a Bolger brick out of crap plywood and the outer veneer split and raised in sections. Repaired it using TIII and fiberglass window screen mesh. Not the whole bottom just sections most were around 10" x 10" Laid the mesh on, filled halfway with TIII, let dry for half an hour and added a second layer. Boat was left outside, abused, and the patches lasted several years, were still good when the boat was bonfired.

hmmm sounds good...


soemone else must have thought of using TIII on glass before us... maybe time for a pro Google search.

[Rick in Pender Harbour]

excellent link!

Rick you compare the Eco Pox to system three, have you tried West System? does the Eco harden a little soft like S3 or quite hard/almost brittle like West?

Hi Daniel
I've not used much West System, but the ecopoxy is not really brittle when it is cured (judging by the expensive hockey pucks of left-overs).

[davebrown]

I hate epoxy and use it more than I should. I tried using TIII on a couple of things to experiment, and one thing that seemed evident was that proper bonding with that type of glue requires pressure. That seems to exclude a number of uses, like for example, TIII for a hollow mast--the joints are blind and glue squeeze out would probably not be enough of an indication of pressure. I thought I might use P+L Premium on a mizzen mast for maybe a 20 sq. ft sail, and see how it does...I wouldn't try it on a mainmast right out of the gate. There is a more expensive version of P+L right now locally for $7 a tube--half the price of epoxy per ounce, roughly. It claims to be better, whatever that means, but for sure we are talking about mechanical bonds and there is a limit to effectiveness. I also pulled an unfinished, unpainted mast out of my shed today, which was built with Raka, and I was annoyed to see a number of splits in the epoxy seams. It had been in a leaky shed for the rainy season and proves the point that pox does not suffer cycling very well.

[MN Dave]

Hi Daniel
I've not used much West System, but the ecopoxy is not really brittle when it is cured (judging by the expensive hockey pucks of left-overs).

You need to look at thin pieces. e.g.:
One layer of 6 oz cloth on thin flexible plywood, say 1/4" okoume and measure te bed radius where it starts to crack.
1/16 inch thick sheet, bend radius to crack.

hmmm sounds good...

someone else must have thought of using TIII on glass before us... maybe time for a pro Google search.

Uhm, not exactly pro (titebond 3 fiberglass) first hit said that PVA was not good with fiberglass, but no detail:
https://www.glen-l.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15362
link within that hit: http://www.oldbrownglue.com/pdf/HowS...urGlue_FWW.pdf The big monkey foaming glue was the worst. Confirms what we always say about it, but if you look at strength by joint type, it is not so bad in a tight joint, but very weak in a loose joint.

The chart shows the glues ranked by the average force it took to break their joints. To give a guide to each glue’s relative performance, its average joint strength is shown as a percentage of that of the strongest glue. We rated Type I PVA as the best overall, with interior yellow glue (PVA) as the best value.
GLUE	JOINT FIT	MAPLE	OAK	IPÉ	Average by joint type		Average
		JOINT STRENGTH (LB.)	JOINT STRENGTH (LB.)	JOINT STRENGTH (LB.)	AVG. JOINT STRENGTH (LB.)	AVG. JOINT STRENGTH (LB.)	AVG. JOINT STRENGTH (LB.)	JOINT STRENGTH AS % OF TYPE I PVA GLUE	COMMENTS
Type I PVA glue (waterproof)	Tight Snug Loose	1842 1700 1593	1843 1822 1603	2554 2733 2525	2080 2085 1907	100% 100% 100%	. . 2024	. . . 100%	This proved to be a good all-around glue with no weakness in any of the woods or joint fits. Combined with its ease of use and moderate cost, this glue wins the best overall label.
Slow-set epoxy	Tight Snug Loose	1690 1680 1635	1908 1832 1557	2425 2712 2503	2008 2075 1898	97% 100% 100%	. . 1994	. . 99%	The betting before the test was that this glue would be the strongest. It came in a close second, but given its high cost and longer preparation time, this was disappointing. In particular, it didn’t prove to be the clear choice for gap-filling.
PVA glue	Tight Snug Loose	1737 1543 1474	1769 1684 1537	2696 2842 2036	2067 2023 1682	99% 97% 88%	. . 1924	. . 95%	Many woodworkers will be relieved to see that their first-choice glue performed so well. Amazingly, it produced the strongest bonds on tight and snug ipé joints. This glue is the best value.
Liquid hide glue	Tight Snug Loose	1468 1516 1436	1850 1699 1521	1716 1779 1374	1678 1665 1444	81% 80% 76%	. . 1595	. . 79%	Not as strong as epoxy or the PVAs, this glue still gave a very credible performance. it performed particularly well on oak, but was relatively less strong on ipé.Proponents of hide glue have never claimed that it is as strong as PVA, but instead promote its reversibility and compatibility with stains and finish.
Hot hide glue	Tight Snug Loose	1488 1412 1485	1847 1765 1618	1769 1459 936	1701 1545 1346	82% 74% 71%	. . 1531	. . 76%	From this test, it appears that hot hide glue is only a little weaker than yellow glue and is stronger on oak.
Polyurethane	Tight Snug Loose	1414 1336 564	1491 1055 571	1875 1455 716	1593 1282 617	77% 61% 32%	. . 1164	. . 58%	The surprise of the test was this glue’s poor showing. The snug joints were poor, and the loose joints were unacceptable. Polyurethane may be a tough finish, but it isn’t a tough glue.

[phiil]

Have I been misled? Are the Gougens evil? How do I dispose of the 10 gallons of toxic waste that is sitting in the shop?
[/QUOTE]
Text me your address. I'll be there shortly to relieve you of the environmental burden.

[MW Jones]

[QUOTEoh also if you get epoxy on your skin the best way to clean up before it hardens is Vinegar, youll stink but it's very non toxic! [/QUOTE]

Actually the vinegar acts as a solvent and thins the resin thus more easily absorbed by the skin.

[tdem]

Perhaps what you need is "poor mans fibreglass", see this instructable. Basically just cloth and titebond. They use it over polystyrene which is a whole other environmental can of worms.

I guess the traditional alternative is paint and canvas which I have used previously to waterproof and protect the chines of a tiny dinghy. Very effective. Some people have used this as a fibreglass alternative over the hull. Just an old bed sheet and some paint.

[upchurchmr]

I'd seriously question almost anything on "Instructables".
There was once a PVC pipe and plastic sheet boat - they claimed was a success.
It collapsed at dock when the owner got in it. Heck of a success and cheap to build.

[Thorne]

I constantly use PL Premium construction adhesive in place of epoxy when I can, when it is safe and effective, and when it won't spoil the looks of the application. But for critical joints and coating I still use quality epoxy.

Decades ago there were some posts here by Chief Red Elk about using various glues with polyester fabric as a sort of poor-man's fiberglass, but I don't remember the details. An interesting concept but I'd want to do a lot of testing before trying that process on anything important.

[SBrookman]

I'm using DAP Poly Pro on the skiff, it says right on the front good for above or below the waterline. Must be OK. Using epoxy for coating the bottom, fillets, and some fairing.
I'm looking forward to hearing more about Eco-Poxy as I'd like to go that way once my supply of WEST is done.

[MN Dave]

are we crazy (yes) ...
not to try Epoxy alternatives?! (Probably not)

I don't know how en-virus-mental it is, but should we consider phenol-formaldehydes here as an alternative to epoxy? There have been a few threads on Cascover, which was a sheathing of Nylon bonded with a mix of serious elbow grease, money and Cascophen.

Google site:http://forum.woodenboat.com cascover

http://forum.woodenboat.com/archive/.../t-204440.html

Cascover sheathing sounds interesting. I have never heard of it before, so I looked to see what I could find.

***Warning*** Google expertise to follow:
It seems to last a long time and is supposed to be resistant to worms. No one gave any specifics on the Nylon, so I would assume that the ballistic Nylon used to cover SOF boats would suffice. [edit found several references to fine nylon scrim] The adhesive, Cascophen is a resorcinol, now made by Momentive or Hexion, whatever they call themselves now, used to be GE. Aircraft Spruce sells it for about the same price as an epoxy. There is a gap filling grade, Cascophen G-1260A. that might be better for applying cloth to wood, but where to find it for sale... You probably need to talk to a tech rep at Hexion. Hopefully they are better than the silicone division.
More on cascophen.
http://www.classicboat.co.uk/forums/...ad.php?t=10498
http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=6125
http://www.classicboat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=119997
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/archive/t-28685.html "very difficult stuff to use. It was good in 1968..."
http://www.chempoint.com/products/catalog/hexion/hexion-performance-adhesives/cascophen-prf-resin

[Mo 'Poxy]

oh also if you get epoxy on your skin the best way to clean up before it hardens is Vinegar, youll stink but it's very non toxic!

Long sleeve shirt and disposable latex gloves work fer me. The few times I get a little poxy on my wrist Permatex/NAPA Orange Pumice hand cleaner is my go-to. The pumice grit kinda scrubs the soft poxy away without solvent. The orange flavor tastes better than the non-flavored.

Sometimes I just let it cure then peel it off of my skin. It does not stick well to skin due to oils but it sticks really well to hair.

[peb]

I dont consider myself crazy for not trying an epoxy alternative. I do consider myself crazy for building a boat.

[SMARTINSEN]

I'm using DAP Poly Pro on the skiff, it says right on the front good for above or below the waterline. Must be OK. Using epoxy for coating the bottom, fillets, and some fairing.
I'm looking forward to hearing more about Eco-Poxy as I'd like to go that way once my supply of WEST is done.

So is this anything much different than using 5200, which is also a polyurethane adhesive? Is the spec similar?

[SBrookman]

The specs seem similar, time will tell how it holds up. I'm not aware of anyone having issues using it. I figure using it on a skiff is an OK test.

One thing is certain the price is less than a third for 5200.

[Reynard38]

When I go to work I transform 1000 gallons per hour of kerosene into thrust and noise. I don't worry too much about a bit of epoxy on my off days.
The Chart above is very informative. I try to use T3 when I can as the cleanup is much easier.