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Thread: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

  1. #1
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    Default I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Yeah I know I should never say never, but seriously I'm sick of getting ****** but not kissed by marinas and thier associated henchmen.

    Had my 1963 Knickerbocker taken to the adjacent marina for a haulout, power wash the bottom and polish/wax the topsides.

    There went $1000.

    Then I went to the marina yesterday to check on her after they put her back in the slip.
    Cover not installed.
    Solar panel not plugged in
    Battery dead
    18" of water in the bilge.

    Really looking forward to having my own dock, a ramp 900 feet from the house and a shop.
    Oh and boats I can haul and maintain myself!
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Break
    Out
    Another
    Thousand

  3. #3
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Yeah, I know Ian. Spending it on paint, varnish, parts etc doesn't bother me in the least.
    Having to pay somebody else to do it? That's the part I don't like. Especially when they do a lousy job.
    I mean I do this stuff as a hobby. I expect somebody that does it for a LIVING to do at least as good a job as I would.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Had many similar experiences when I had a 27' FG sloop I kept in a slip at a marina a couple of hours away. Swore to myself never to let the tail wag the dog again.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    what's next? "I swear when it comes to selling my boat I won't ever use the internet to sell but find ways circumvent and hint I'm selling my boat" ?

    If I want a larger boat and I LOVE large boats. I would be using a full service marina. BUT, I'm on fixed income and can't even afford glue for woodworking at this point in time. AND, why I sold my large but not large enough 30 footer. I'm happy that did have 15 years or so sailing larger boats and happy that I can share that knowledge.

    Just because you are unhappy and always will be unhappy it doesn't mean all or everyone in the marine trade is out and conspiring to "get" you and you only Renard. Hope your house and dock becomes reality and you find the happiness that seems to escape you.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  6. #6
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    There's always a premium charged on luxury items. Your BMW will always cost more for an oil change than your Toyota. That said, the increase in environmental regulations most everywhere now has increased the overhead of boatyards tremendously and their liability for fines on environmental violations is something a lot of them don't want to share with amateurs, so the option of working on your own boat is becoming less available as time goes on.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    I'm completely with you on that one.


    Romance is for Lovers, NOT boat owners....



    Besides, my introduction wooden boats was via small boats.. so simple, so easy.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    It's a cyclical thing; you want one, then you don't want one. One approach is to never own a boat that you simply can't walk away from with never a regret. For a poor guy that might be a kayak or an aluminum jon boat. For a wealthier guy it can be a pretty substantial boat.

    Owning a slip can be a great way to go too. If your needs are modest, and you get the slip early enough in life in a decent rental market, it can be great. Then during those years when you're fed up and thinking boating is for suckers, you rent the slip out to one of those suckers. Usually after a few years go by you want to get back on the water again. The slip makes it real easy if you get a decent sized boat. Otherwise you get a trailerable boat and that sucker in your slip keeps on paying you. But you have to do your own work if you're an average person - marine services are for those who can afford them without a second thought.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    After my Folkboat got dumped by a crane operator due to incorrect sling placement, i decided then to downsize and not rely on other people, especially crane operators. I recall seeing one of Luke Powels brand new pilot cutters after being dropped by a crane, sometimes having insurance does not bring back 12 months of hard work.
    l

  10. #10
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    what's next? "I swear when it comes to selling my boat I won't ever use the internet to sell but find ways circumvent and hint I'm selling my boat" ?

    If I want a larger boat and I LOVE large boats. I would be using a full service marina. BUT, I'm on fixed income and can't even afford glue for woodworking at this point in time. AND, why I sold my large but not large enough 30 footer. I'm happy that did have 15 years or so sailing larger boats and happy that I can share that knowledge.

    Just because you are unhappy and always will be unhappy it doesn't mean all or everyone in the marine trade is out and conspiring to "get" you and you only Renard. Hope your house and dock becomes reality and you find the happiness that seems to escape you.
    First off I never did expect anybody here to buy her. She's plastic. No hinting.
    Second off the marinas on the lake that do have haulout facilities charge a lot for them. Even if you have a slip there. The first week is $12/ day, after a week that doubles. And that is of course after you've paid for your slip.

    I never complain about paying for good work. The shop that works on my cars charges $100/hour. The do a fantastic job, and when I get the car back it's been washed and vacuumed. That's a big difference to the bafffoons that tried to sink my boat. I've heard of other bad expreices with yards from forumites and other boat owners, so no they aren't only out to get me.

    I always look at return on investment. I used to race cars. Most fun thing I've ever done. However when I added up the amount of $$ and time I put into it, and then figured the amount of time I actually did it, well it's a pretty expensive hobby in terms of $$/minute. Sold the race car (on the internet too!)

    So for me anyway it's gonna be small boats than I can work on myself. That and my convertible (which my wife and I took to lunch today, 60° and sunny) make me happy. In fact I'm going continue making the windshield frame for the Rambler today. More happiness.

    I once read that the amount a boat get used is inversely proportionate to its size. I really do believe that.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  11. #11
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    I worked at a boatyard and when I'd spend the time doing the types of things to care for customers' boat that the OP mentions the bosses didn't like the time I put for it on my time card, and hated having to explain it to the owners. One fall I inspected the boats as we hauled, prepped and stored them for the winter and made a list for each boat regarding work that could be done before spring. i.e., replace worn belts, cracked hoses, free up stiff seacocks, correct poor bilge pump installations, etc. I thought it would be useful to schedule the work through the winter and that the bosses could make suggestions to the owners based on the lists, keep us all busy and efficient maybe.

    They threw the lists away.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  12. #12
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    I think the real problem is not that it costs so much to maintain a boat, it's that there are so many (but by no means all) places that do a less than competent, or rather, adequate job.

    For example, the place that installed my adjustable pitch feathering prop. Had they admitted they'd never installed one before, I could have done it with at least the same errors. Actually, what I would have done was called the manufacturer for guidance. I'd never done it before either, that's why I hired them. What they did was slap it together and charged me as if they knew what they were doing. For the price, they could have called the manufacturer. Instead, one blade was pitched at sixteen inches, the other at twelve.

    Remember in Casablanca, when Rick told Ugarte he didn't mind a thief, but he objected to a cut-rate one? That's kind of how I feel on the subject. I didn't mind paying for the install, I was bothered by paying for an incorrect install.

    Different marina: Please replace the shaft log. Done. Looking at the boat: That's a beautiful PYI Dripless bearing you installed. The old one worked fine though. Do you think we can do the shaft log next haul out?

    I can make the same mistakes for a much lower price.

    I expect them to charge a lot for an oil change on a BMW. I just don't expect them to cross thread the plug when they re-install it.

    If you find a yard you can trust: Keep it. In the mean time, it's like looking for a girl to marry. You will kiss a lot of frogs.
    Heute ist so ein schöne Tag...

  13. #13
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Remember in Casablanca, when Rick told Ugarte he didn't mind a thief, but he objected to a cut-rate one? That's kind of how I feel on the subject. I didn't mind paying for the install, I was bothered by paying for an incorrect install.
    x100

    Plus I hate having to call back and call back about that quote or whatever I called about beginning two weeks ago. I'm trying to spend money for the love of goodness <grrrrr>

    Plus I hate knowing that I know more than the lady in the office I'm asking for the quote. (True story: I had to explain topsides when asking for a painting quote. "The white part. The part from the bottom paint to the toe rail. Please."

    Last month I had the mizzen mast pulled (after 3+ calls and at least one time I stopped by the office). I was told they'd get the small crane. I even called the office the morning of the pull to say 'you realize the mizzen mast is the little mast on the back? Right?' and she assured me she did and that it was the small truck coming. That afternoon as the sign truck with the large crane was setting up the yard manager walks over and says 'we could have pulled that' (with their bucket truck that was sitting right beside Sarah and that he had to move out of the way of the sign truck <grrrrrrr deep sign roll eyes>). I was looking at my credit card bill today and wondered why it was so high. Yep. Fully charged me for the large crane.

    I can't tell you what is more frustrating - having to call and call and follow up to get something done. (Never did get that quote on the topsides although I arranged my schedule to meet someone on site at a date and time of their choosing) or the unnecessary expense.

    Whatever it is has absolutely put me off of the whole boat-owning business

  14. #14
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    First off I never did expect anybody here to buy her. She's plastic. No hinting.
    Second off the marinas on the lake that do have haulout facilities charge a lot for them.
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-classic-glass

    Byeeee
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  15. #15
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Not to be an apologist, cause I know where you are coming from. But, relative to cost, in many areas, waterfront real estate is worth way more than running a marina business. If they don't charge a lot, and cant make a good return, they might decide to just sell the place for condos and then join us sailing or fishing on weekends and holidays instead of working.

    There's price to be paid to keep them in business to be there at all. Think about it.

    Regards workmanship, the industry is, and has been, facing a shortage of career-oriented individuals for service positions.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    We used to have a responsible marine industry here but ever since the Americas cup its just become characterised by avarice and plus plus plus margins on mundane items. Its endemic in the industry.
    It means you end up doing your own work and muddle through. Says the guy who has been up the rigs 10 times this year and who has one lying on deck right now. New rigging x 2( with an old school rigger making the wire and doing the hard stuff) New step.new plumbing down below, engine nightmares, electrical stuff. Geez.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    I worked at a boatyard and when I'd spend the time doing the types of things to care for customers' boat that the OP mentions the bosses didn't like the time I put for it on my time card, and hated having to explain it to the owners. One fall I inspected the boats as we hauled, prepped and stored them for the winter and made a list for each boat regarding work that could be done before spring. i.e., replace worn belts, cracked hoses, free up stiff seacocks, correct poor bilge pump installations, etc. I thought it would be useful to schedule the work through the winter and that the bosses could make suggestions to the owners based on the lists, keep us all busy and efficient maybe.

    They threw the lists away.
    Being female, having being the owner of a business that used to begat me 6 figures and being on both sides of the service/repair world. It seems everyone expects what they want but do not communicate until it's time to pay. (case study old movie; Mr Bland's dream house)

    The customer, really thinks the contractors, service person, etc "owe" them. Even the contractor they hire to "fix" what the "other" did! (we all know what that means) "oh could you fix.. and adjust... or would you mind adding....?"

    My first ever need for a marina's services was on a Chesapeake bay trip. the bolts for the pedestal rotted and released the sheaves under the cockpit. MY son (rip) wanted us to fix it but I was too worked up and upset at the time. (and had $$$ then)

    Needless to say; being "captive" for 2 days in sweltering summer heat, being towed in, put of a mooring and told "relax" the yard boat will be out in the morning to "tow you into the work slip" certainly conjured up all kinds of nightmarish ways I would be "ripped off"

    I was treated so well, and the old timer working on the boat treated my old Oday like she was his own. by mid day I got a call "it's fixed" They charged $375.00 and even took a check!

    I could go on for hours.. but I won't.

    Rbgarr I award you *****!
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  18. #18
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Exactly. I figured that there'd be some good advice to be garnered from the group as many HAD owned plastic boats at one time or another.
    I never posted the ad. Never violated forum rules.

    As we say in my industry, Buh bye.
    Last edited by Reynard38; 02-15-2017 at 05:59 PM.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  19. #19
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    A few years ago a guy was going to give me a Stone Horse for free, but with it's weight you could not pull it at my yacht club's hoist, so I declined. I feel the same way about at least being able to get at the hull any time I want.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

  20. #20
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Don Z. wrote: "I can make the same mistakes for a much lower price."

    Bingo. Plus, you learn for next time around.

    Chip

  21. #21
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    It's funny, I thought that if I ever got to live on the water, real water, I'd want to own a big boat.
    So we bought a lot, the plans are done and we hope to break ground in a few months.
    In the interim I had an opportunity to sail on a large classic sailboat. A real work of art. It was a magnificent experience, and I realized there is no way I'd want to own it. It's scare the heck out of me. The maintenance, the $$ and worrying about hurricane haulout.
    No way.
    Small and classic for me. The kind of boat that if I've got a couple of hours before dinner I can go out for a quick sail, put her away in 10 minutes and enjoy a great meal and a beer on the dock.
    So a 15' catboat, the Rambler and maybe a Point Comfort 18 for fishing and throwing a cast net. Oh and my Chester Yawl for rowing.
    That'll do it.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  22. #22
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    What a lot of apologists for mediocrity here. No one has said they mind paying. What they've said is that they mind paying for shoddy/wrong work. Of course marinas are expensive to own & run - still does not excuse crappy work.

    And - yes I've worked in yards & repair shops & the like. It's simple really - give good service & people will come back. Crappy - they won't - and shouldn't.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  23. #23
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Before I started restoring my boat I rented boats. Club membership was like $35/month and a 40ft Catalina was $375 for 24hrs, or $450 for the weekend. At the time I really wanted a boat, but I kept telling myself "keep renting. It's better. Keep renting...." The best part was that when anything went wrong I just brought her in, filled in the punch list and walked away.

    Then I went and got emotionally attached to a boat, bought it, am restoring it, but have not been out sailing in six years. That's the other good thing about a club. You pay the dues and then feel like you should go out so you actually do!

    $12/day is a deal!!!! Try $24/day + $125 power wash fee. Three weeks max and then they put her back in the water whether you re done or not! And you say thank you sir, because no one else around here wants to haul a wooden boat, and even if they did they don't have rails so you end up biting your nails as the old girl strains in the straps!

  24. #24
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    There's always a premium charged on luxury items. Your BMW will always cost more for an oil change than your Toyota. That said, the increase in environmental regulations most everywhere now has increased the overhead of boatyards tremendously and their liability for fines on environmental violations is something a lot of them don't want to share with amateurs, so the option of working on your own boat is becoming less available as time goes on.
    I am not so sure it is just the environmental regs (but I know CA is pretty strict). It also has to be the value of the real estate (and taxes) and the insurance liability of having people working on their own boats.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    What a lot of apologists for mediocrity here. No one has said they mind paying. What they've said is that they mind paying for shoddy/wrong work. Of course marinas are expensive to own & run - still does not excuse crappy work.

    And - yes I've worked in yards & repair shops & the like. It's simple really - give good service & people will come back. Crappy - they won't - and shouldn't.
    Thank you Garret.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  26. #26
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Years ago I put my 505 under cover at a marina for winter. In spring I learned it had been hit twice - once by a car and once by the tractor moving a larger boat out of the same shed. I never went back and neither should you.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    It's funny, I thought that if I ever got to live on the water, real water, I'd want to own a big boat.
    So we bought a lot, the plans are done and we hope to break ground in a few months.
    In the interim I had an opportunity to sail on a large classic sailboat. A real work of art. It was a magnificent experience, and I realized there is no way I'd want to own it. It's scare the heck out of me. The maintenance, the $$ and worrying about hurricane haulout.
    No way.
    Small and classic for me. The kind of boat that if I've got a couple of hours before dinner I can go out for a quick sail, put her away in 10 minutes and enjoy a great meal and a beer on the dock.
    So a 15' catboat, the Rambler and maybe a Point Comfort 18 for fishing and throwing a cast net. Oh and my Chester Yawl for rowing.
    That'll do it.
    I keep Emily Ruth on a mooring out in front of my house. Being retired, if the wind is right I row the dinghy out and go sailing for an hour or so. Whatever feels right. Satisfied, I then go home, eat lunch or have a beer on the deck depending on if it was a morning or afternoon sail. I can be on the boat nearly every day during the season. And I still have my shore life. It's bliss. You'll like it.

    Jeff

  28. #28
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Evaluating boatyards beforehand: http://stevedmarineconsulting.com/cr...e-code-part-i/

    Of course, the number of choices for service locally vary considerably.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

  29. #29
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    No way I could afford my boat if I couldn't do 99% of the maintenance on her myself.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    I think it's what you want out of your boating life, or possibly how far along you are in your life. If you want to do some serious cruising, unless you're single or have a very understanding significant other, you will need a larger boat. Been there, but now like others here, I've discovered not only the joy of small traditional boats, but the fun and challenge of building them. Now that I'm retired I am as excited about starting a 12' skiff as I was years ago setting off on a cruise on a "big" boat.
    Steve B
    TraditionalSmallCraftAssociation
    DowneastTSCA.org

    TraditionalSmallCraft.com
    RIVUS 16' Melonseed

    "If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most." E. B. White

  31. #31
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    As you wait for the perfect boat and house with dock try a kayak or row boat in the back water. I find it clears the mind.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    I'm lucky in that Drake is at an old-fashioned family-run rather funky do-it-yourself boatyard. But I know what you mean, Reynard.

    Our previous boat was the very trailerable 1990 MacGregor 26. It was extremely convenient to bring it home to fix it, or modify it, or even provision it for an Away trip. And of course for winter storage.

    We love Drake, but my next boat will be one that is again easily traileable, and under 30 ft.

    Dave

  33. #33
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by eelspike View Post
    As you wait for the perfect boat and house with dock try a kayak or row boat in the back water. I find it clears the mind.
    It does. Got my CLC Chester Yawl for that. Took her for a row on the Chattahoochee yesterday. And the architecture review board gave preliminary approval to the house plans yesterday, so the wait got a bit shorter.

    So where in Huntington? I lived in Cold Spring Hills from 1968 until '77. Went to St. Pats elementary and sailed for Huntington Yacht club in Blue Jays and Lightnings.

    Or have I reminisced about this before with you? Seems like there is another forumite from @ 11743.
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

  34. #34
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    As a kid I sailed Blue Jays right across the Sound from you.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  35. #35
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    Default Re: I'm never again owing a boat I can't haul and work on myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    Yeah I know I should never say never, but seriously I'm sick of getting ****** but not kissed by marinas and thier associated henchmen.


    Had my 1963 Knickerbocker taken to the adjacent marina for a haulout, power wash the bottom and polish/wax the topsides.

    There went $1000.
    B.O.A.T. = Bring Out Another Thousand.


    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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