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Thread: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

  1. #1
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    Default WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    This is an interesting all-season design sketched up for the Maine coastal waters (bays and rivers): http://www.woodenboat.com/ukpik

    The Sketchbook offerings are always fun to consider.

    We've kept our 24' motorboat in the water here in winter for occasional use. One thing I'd be wary of with the sketched design if it's kept afloat (many public ramps and lots are unusable in winter, snowed in and unplowed) is that heavy snow and ice storms might make her a bit top heavy, especially if the dinghy were to fill. A cover to shed snow would be useful.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    Interesting. if she were kept on a mooring over winter wouldn't the dinghy be ashore, and be unable to fill with snow?
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    Depends on the mooring to some extent. I want to be able to get to our boat easily (in the lighted marina) to clear it of snow, and that's often in the evening. I wouldn't be very keen on doing it out on a mooring in the dark. But the tender could be kept ashore in any case, yes.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    I am afraid that I'm to blame for this one. A simple winter boat that could be trailered, live in a slip or on a mooring. Think Camden Harbor. A winter equivalent of the MITA Lund that I spend time driving. Tender is egg in your beer; the idea of a tender would be to take along so you could land on an island, or you could put the boat ashore the way we do the Lund's I'll be interested to see the text. Some of the inspiration for me was the winter RI clam skiffs which have little shelters on an outboard.

    Got to clear the snow from the dory tomorrow so there is room for the next batch.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    I'm eager to see the writeup also. My guess was that the tender was for doing just that, landing on islands. I wish we could keep our rowboat in for that in winter but it's too heavy for me to haul ashore alone, and keeping it afloat ice and snow free is a PITA.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    I'm eager to see the writeup also. My guess was that the tender was for doing just that, landing on islands. I wish we could keep our rowboat in for that in winter but it's too heavy for me to haul ashore alone, and keeping it afloat ice and snow free is a PITA.
    I figure that the tender would be something like a Nutshell. Down in Camden these can live out of the water upside down on the dinghy dock or be slid into the back of a pickup. On a longer boat they can be skidded so that they hang half over the transome. Off to clear the dory; it lives next to the Mannings with a good protected dinghy dock spot. Leather bailer and small plastic dust pans are weapons of choice, and the bottom gets a dose of salt.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    With a boat that small and versatile, I wonder about the added feature of the dighny. It seems more hassle and work to deal with than just using that little mother ship that, really, isn't that much bigger.
    Jay

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Off to clear the dory; it lives next to the Mannings....
    Did you come up with a way to keep the topsides from getting chewed up at the town float?
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    With a boat that small and versatile, I wonder about the added feature of the dighny. It seems more hassle and work to deal with than just using that little mother ship that, really, isn't that much bigger.
    Jay
    My thinking, too. I sailed an 18' pocket cruiser for 6 or 7 years and never carried a dinghy of any kind, and never needed it. There was always a dock or a beach or a harbor launch available.

    I also wonder why this boat had to be shrunk down that much from the original 22'. A little more cockpit would be very handy. How much could that possibly cost? Shouldn't even need more motor.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    Did you come up with a way to keep the topsides from getting chewed up at the town float?
    I did; a string of four fenders hung horizontally, at the bottom of the sheer strake works well. You have to have a line between each one and it takes fiddling to get everything set right, but it is easy to swing the sausage in for rowing.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    My thinking, too. I sailed an 18' pocket cruiser for 6 or 7 years and never carried a dinghy of any kind, and never needed it. There was always a dock or a beach or a harbor launch available.

    I also wonder why this boat had to be shrunk down that much from the original 22'. A little more cockpit would be very handy. How much could that possibly cost? Shouldn't even need more motor.
    I haven't seen the piece yet. I specified that the boat should be light enough to be pulled by a 4 banger on a single axle trailer, again based on my Lund experience. The dinghy is all about going ashore on places without docks again based on the Lund, which put ashore all the time with a stern anchor and bow line. Some rigging is needed to make things work with a tide and a dinghy would be handy. There have also been cases where the bobble was such to make landing the Lund not a great idea and a simple fat double paddle plastic canoe made life easier.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    WB came today and read the piece. Size mostly has to do with weight. The 4 cyl tacoma can haul an 18' lund at about a 1000 pounds at highway speeds. Laurie brings this one in at 1500 as I read it. Built wicked stout. I agree that a few more feet would mostly add to the looks, but likely need a bigger engine and not sure about utility. Spec here was a solo or maybe two boat. There are some features that I hadn't thought about like space for a mini galley and heat; I'd figured on just an open aft standing shelter. Some useful safety stuff like a collision bulkhead, forward hatch a'la Bolger to handle anchor. Flat bottom for grounding out. The outboard structure has a full height bulkhead and aft cockpit is selfbailing. The dinghy hoist interesting; immediate thought is a stanchion on the other side as well and a bar on the cabin top for a couple of kayaks in more clement weather.

    Given the interest now in tiny trailers, what about a tiny trailer that can turn into a boat?
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    It's an intriguing design, to be sure.

    It does flirt with the 'toy' side of things. But falls short of that, and comes down firmly on one side of the old debate/conundrum about what to plan for. Do you recognize that the largest part of our boat use is solo, or with one friend for day-use only? Or do you attempt to allow for the possibility that a friend or lover or child or grandchild might want to join you for overnight/weekend adventures.

    Since I drive a V8 Tundra... I'd be tempted to grow it by half a sheet, making it about 19'. Then you could have a cockpit big enough to socialize in, and room for one more berth below. And enough additional beam to allow for small side decks, to allow going forward (with the addition of lifelines, and maybe a pulpit) for sunbathing or dock line/anchor handling.

    But then you're into crowded territory. Why not just build one of the great existing designs at that size? A Redwing 18, stretched to 19. An Outer Banks 20. Or suchlike. So we're back to this uniquely useful tiny boat, which appears as if she'd be handy beyond her size. Sort of a larger, cabin-cruiser Scamp...

    Either way, I would think about a Welsford-style self-draining anchor well.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    I think the emphasis here was winter boat. So Laurie did get rid of some of the summer utility stuff like side decks, dangerous in winter, and worked hard to make this a boat to clear out snow. They do make it less useful for summer. On UKPIK if you dial the standing shelter back so you dump the galley and weather proofing, run the bunk forward as a bivvy bunk, so that it is less of a nice overnight boat , you get back to the workboat (winter clam skiff) type roots where fishermen just add a shelter to an outboard of convenience. That is real bare bones.

    The existing designs I've seen are more clement weather boats, and would certainly need work to make them snow friendly. Laurie did get her into 750 pounds on the trailer w/o motor. You could probably slide her out 2' in the cockpit and keep her at 1000, which would be OK for the trailer if you wanted a little more space. Good thing my shop space is limited to kayaks and skiffs.

    Speaking of snow, got to light up the plow, then go clear the dory. ( generous salt in the bottom is your friend.)
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    I read the article today and liked the writeup and your initial request, Ben. I hope you DO build one like it.

    This winter we've had our boat ashore to do some work on it (the four previous have been hard on the deck) and I miss using it just the way you describe. There are beautiful, calm days in the forties and fifties from time to time and I want to keep her in the water again next year.

    One small thing I would suggest about one design detail is that manual windshield wipers instead of motorized might work out better. We keep a 'squeeze bottle' (an Aquabot on deep discount https://www.amazon.com/dp/B010O89KNA ) of windshield antifreeze fluid available in case of spray and icing. Opening the side window to spritz before working the windshield lever works reliably and simply.
    Last edited by rbgarr; 02-16-2017 at 11:57 AM.
    "... and the great shroud of the sea rolled on as it rolled five thousand years ago."

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    I was critical of this design in the Woodenboat thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...Three-Thoughts

    I wasn't aware of this thread at that time. I think my objections to the design were clear enough there, some will agree, some will disagree. However there is another important issue that clearly reveals itself here, and that's the relationship between the client and the designer, and how the design process evolves.

    When I read and reread the article a few times, I thought "the client didn't ask for this little 15 foot boat with every "amenity." Reading the posts in this thread confirms that thought.

    In the real world there are often four key events in any serious design process: the initial meeting between client and designer to discuss the work needed and the problems to be solved; the preliminary design review; the intermediate design review; and the final design review. These steps are essentially self explanatory. The physical building / construction work starts after all parties are satisfied and full agreement is reached in the final design review.

    To me, the published article represents the effort that would be presented in a preliminary design review. I used the word "brutal" in my post on this subject in the Woodenboat thread, because preliminary design reviews can be brutal for the designer. The designer might present what he thinks is elegant work, and a perfect solution to the client's needs. The client's response determines the success or failure of the preliminary design review, and often whether it is a "brutal" experience for the designer.

    If the client is happy at the preliminary design review, no problem, the process happily continues.

    However, a nice, understanding client might say: "Wow, you've done excellent work here, I'm impressed! But look, don't take this wrong, but this really isn't what I wanted, I didn't ask for this, we need to start over." This often leads to a very successful final project outcome with good relationships all round.

    Sometimes a "nice" client isn't at all satisfied, but for various reasons doesn't fully state his objections. If the designer is inexperienced he may not be able to suss this out, and the client accepts awkward and unsatisfactory compromises - accepts proposals that he really isn't very happy with. In a worst case scenario this dysfunction prevails throughout the project with unhappy results.

    Sometimes the client is an S.O.B. He might even show up at the preliminary design review with highly experienced outside experts. These folks can rake the designer over the coals if there are any issues with the preliminary design, perhaps fire the designer on the spot. If the designer remains on the project the tension can remain throughout the project.

    Of course there are other variations and permutations possible in this process, and generally reasonably satisfactory results ensue.

    So, getting back to the WB Design Sketchbook:

    It seems clear that the client didn't specifically ask for or want this little boat with full "amenities" and dinghy in davits.

    The designer explains in the sketchbook how he has gone through design iterations, reducing the project size (but he doesn't note that he is increasing complexity and decreasing usability with the size reductions.) He says that he normally "stays clear' of this sort of "toy appearance," but continues with it. Should the designer maybe do a quick internal review at this point and make sure that he's on the right track and meeting the client's wants?

    In summary, I would say at this point the client and the designer of this project are entering into the preliminary design review. Is the client getting what he wanted and expected? If he's happy, no problem, let further design details develop, meet twice more for as the work progresses to ensure that all is well, and then start making sawdust. The client and designer can tell us about the sea trials next winter.

    But, if this is not exactly what the client wants in a custom design, how will he react, and will the project continue in modified form, or will it be abandoned? Let us all know.

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    As Dave states this is indeed a preliminary design. The only communication I set for Laurie was the letter that is in the article. I did spec weight more than size, the ability to carry a dinghy, the speed needed and the night if caught out. In a next iteration I'd want to rexamine the weight, see exactly what I can move around ( I am used to a Lund Alaskan). But the weight is kind of a hard number. See what trading off a more spartan lifestyle would look like, if it would get a bigger boat. I really like some things I hadn't thought about, the safety and snow handling aspects as I know all to well what clearing snow and ice out of more complex boats is like. Laurie created a boat that could be a little more useful for the winter and the shank seasons. But she is not for carrying a party on a bluebird summer day.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    ..I specified that the boat should be light enough to be pulled by a 4 banger on a single axle trailer,...
    How often will you tow, how far are you towing, whats the terrain like, and what condition are your launch ramp surfaces? I would never suggest that one should tow with an inadequate vehicle, but in the U.S. it seems to have become accepted that one needs a four wheel drive, V8 vehicle, and we see folks hauling big heavy boats on the freeway at 80 mph, apparently thinking that they are driving safely.

    I have a 900 pound single axle trailer in new condition with excellent tires and working surge brakes. I have 2000 pounds of boat and motor on the trailer for 2900 pounds total weight. I have the trailer axle positioned for 300 pounds tongue weight. I tow with a 4 cylinder, 2 wheel drive, Nissan Frontier pickup with factory installed hitch on the frame. I seldom tow more than 30 miles one way, but I would be willing to do so on occasion. I drive carefully and slowly, and anticipate braking. I've never overheated' Never slipped on my wet, reasonably steep, local concrete ramp (I see the big boys and their big trucks smoking tires there all the time.)

    It's hard to go against convention, and I admit that from time to time I say to myself "Why didn't I get the 4 wheel drive Nissan truck with six cylinder engine?" It's hard not to think this when you're surrounded by monster trucks. I get the answer to this question during that 90% of the time when I'm not hauling the boat and trailer, and I get reasonable fuel economy, and small size maneuverability.

    I think you could successfully and safely haul this sort of load, and have a little bit bigger and more useful boat, with a four banger tow vehicle, provided it and the trailer were in good condition.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    Where I am towing is the Maine coast; hilly but nothing special. Sometimes 80- 100 mile one ways. My 4 banger is a old style Tacoma with the great 4wd so I can launch over somewhat funky ramps and beaches. There are places that you need low range low to climb a berm. So far in my and MITA's trailering I've been able to stay away from trailers with brakes which helps keep the load size under control. Hence the size spec.

    My next step on this project would be to have a look at how much weight a couple of feet might add, and see what the implications that would be on motors. That davit could be handy for other things besides a dink, and would be pretty available in this lobstering land, but with a couple of extra feet it would be tempting to mount it further aft. I'd need to revisit the system we've seen around here to cantilever a dink over the stern. The OB may be the limiter. To stay in WB land, and keep to KISS I'd probably go with the small Nutshell, armoured up a little, with forward and aft buoyancy compartments although the dink and others of that type in your other post are interesting. Things do get chewed when dragged over beaches. What some use are the wide beam faintly horrible poly double paddle canoes, but those would not be my choice for winter.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    Air drag may be the more important factor than weight for trailering a boat such as UKPIK other than pulling the boat up a steep, slippery ramp.

    The added aerodynamic drag behind Ben's truck would be 150 lbs to 200 lbs based on an approximate frontal area of 30 sq ft and an estimated drag coefficient of 0.7 to 0.9 behind Ben's truck. The rolling resistance of the trailer at a loaded weight including trailer of 1500 lbs would be 15 to 20 lbs. The added pull on the trailer tongue going up an 8% grade (steep for a highway) would be 120 lbs, less than the aerodynamic drag.

    In contrast the MITA 18 ft Lund aluminum boat Ben has towed has an approximate frontal area of 15 sq ft and a drag coefficient of 0.5 to 0.7 behind Ben's truck. That results in an aerodynamic drag of 55 lbs to 75 lbs at 50 mph which is about a third of UKPIK's. Assuming the MITA boat and trailer also weight about 1500 lbs the rolling resistance and grade load would be about the same.

    Ben's Tacoma pickup has an approximate frontal area of 25 sq ft and an estimated drag coefficient of 0.45 for an aerodynamic drag of 80 lbs at 50 mph, so the aerodynamic drag would double or more with UKPIK behind. Assuming Ben's truck when towing UKPIK weighs 4500 lbs the rolling resistance would be around 45 to 55 lbs, and the added resistance of 360 lbs going up an 8% grade.

    The calculations above are estimates based on experience gained working on automobile aerodynamics and engineering.
    Last edited by David Cockey; 02-25-2017 at 07:02 PM.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    David, Interesting. Hadn't thought about the air drag. I'm sure it is a factor when I double deck a trailer, but figured that kayaks on the roof of the truck were draggier than having them on the trailer. OTH, I never felt much air drag to be much of a problem with boats towed behind my old VW bus, but it made a pretty big hole in the air. Does adding a full cap to the truck which I have just done ( Craig's' List) change the equation? And obviously the faster one goes the bigger the problem. Since trailering would be mostly local, I'd rarely get to 50 I suspect.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  22. #22
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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    A full cap should help with trailer behind, particularly when towing something as tall and boxy as the UKPIK proposal. Something like your ducker or a couple of kayaks on the top of your double decker trailer would be much lower drag than UKPIK due to two factors - considerably lower frontal area and lower drag shapes.

    Power to overcome aerodynamic drag goes up with the speed cubed. Stay around 30 mph or under and it's generally not a factor. Drive on freeways at 60 mph for long distance passagemaking and it can a significant factor depending on the size and shape of the trailer and its load.

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    Default Re: WB Issue #255 Sketchbook design

    It's wise that you consider all the factors in towing. There's 152 horse power available in my 4 cylinder engine. We forget that was unheard of power just 100 years ago. I never tow anything at over 50 mph maximum, that makes me an oddball. I screwed up in sizing my trailer so my boat sits higher on the trailer than I wanted, but no problem, and very much bigger than UKPIK.

    I see UKPIKS narrow beam as a disadvantage on the water but an advantage when towing, particularly if the trailer is sized for the boat to sit as low as possible.


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