Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 51 to 73 of 73

Thread: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

  1. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    15,152

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond


  2. #52
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lindstrom, MN
    Posts
    1,453

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Quote Originally Posted by leop View Post
    ...The blower is aluminum and the engine block...
    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    I have a Bux drill...

    Edit; They (magnetic base drills)
    We did give upon the bux?
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  3. #53
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Gatos, CA
    Posts
    266

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Thats a conventional twist drill, which in my experience will wander off center and eventually bust out of the bolt shaft and proceed to do damage to either the blower or block.

    In the past I have gotten around this limitation by using a "gun drill". A gun drill will run more true than a twist drill and is used for high depth to diameter ratios. These bolts are five inches long, and hardened according to one DD source. So was thinking better safe than sorry.

    More on the fascinating gun drill can be learned here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_drill
    and here: http://www.unisig.com/information-an...-gun-drilling/

    The worst part is that you have no idea the twist drill has wandered until it pops out somewhere. It might run true, but my luck has more often resulted in it going way off center.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Gatos, CA
    Posts
    266

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    We did give upon the bux?
    Well I'll I don't have a bux drill so to use one would require a fairly large purchase. It was also pointed out that they are not as great as they have been touted to be. I'll look into renting one, but by the time I machine a steel plate for it to clamp on to I might as well go ahead and weld two bearings down and taper cut a shaft to save myself $900.

    I have been trying to by a used one for some time but all these magnetic drills hold their value very well and a classic like bux has almost a cult following. You have to keep an eye out for them and move fast when a good one is up for sale and be prepared to pay top dollar.

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    15,152

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Quote Originally Posted by leop View Post
    Thats a conventional twist drill, which in my experience will wander off center and eventually bust out of the bolt shaft and proceed to do damage to either the blower or block.

    In the past I have gotten around this limitation by using a "gun drill". A gun drill will run more true than a twist drill and is used for high depth to diameter ratios. These bolts are five inches long, and hardened according to one DD source. So was thinking better safe than sorry.

    More on the fascinating gun drill can be learned here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_drill
    and here: http://www.unisig.com/information-an...-gun-drilling/

    Best of luck

  6. #56
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    142

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Quote Originally Posted by leop View Post
    Yes, I knew all along I would need a jig I just kept lying to myself because I hate to build a tool that I plan to use once, well hopefully once.

    I have some 1/2 inch plate for the base, and 1/4 inch for a frame. I also have some drill rod with bearings that fit it. I guess I'll need to turn a taper on the shaft for a drill chuck. I hate turning tapers! Oblong holes to line it up? Ohh I remember, it was the special drill bit that I didn't want to buy. The bolt is at least five inches long. I can't gun drill the bolt that far and expect the bit to exit in the center of the bolt can I? The last long gun drilling bit I bought was from Japan, and man was it expensive.

    Well thanks for the encouragement.
    Thats quite a long bolt. A spotting drill is a good and cheap way to get off on the right foot if you go the drilling route. My money would still be on welding being the cheapest, quickest,easiest and most effective method. This is the type of problem I get called out to solve for people quite often. In some cases it requires centre drilling and then steadily working away with dremels/die grinders/right angle drills with carious micro carbide bits and some wax, but in most cases the combination of a mig welded nut on the bolt plus some wax gets the job done. My service truck has a 15kva genset with a mig on a jib with a 15' gun but if I have to get inside something I just take the welder with me and use extensions leads. I usually charge about $80 for something like that. Most of the time is in driving and setup.

  7. #57
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    551

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Most of the time is in driving and setup.
    Ah yes, but it's a long drive from Sydney to Southern California, eh Shaun? Might be a tad more than $80 AUS for that job!

  8. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    142

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Ah yes, but it's a long drive from Sydney to Southern California, eh Shaun? Might be a tad more than $80 AUS for that job!
    I'm willing to offer a greatly reduced hourly rate for the travel ;-) the point was there's probably someone in your area that specialises in stuck fastener removal. Every major city has at least one guy who pretty much only removes stuck fasteners. Usually you can get hold of them by ringing around local bus company's, truck repair companies etc.

  9. #59
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lindstrom, MN
    Posts
    1,453

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    One more try with the hole saw idea. It is obviously a good idea on account of I thought of it. At least as good as drinking the booze before peeing on the engine. I found a thinner wall and smaller diameter (well, it looks thin in the picture). If you can drill through the mess between the bolt and the housing without removing too much housing, you might be able to guide the drill bit if still needed without really tearing up the hole.

    http://www.anotheramazingproduct.com...hole-saws.html
    Now if you could just sneak a gun drill down the center of the diamond drill... What, go find a stiff drink and stop typing at you? Oh. OK. well, right. Bye.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

  10. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Gatos, CA
    Posts
    266

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Best of luck
    Thank you,

    If you have any other ideas or products please recommend them. You have experience with using jigs for this sort of thing and I don't because I usually just throw my problem onto the mill and wamo bambo, it's out. It's not going to be that easy this time

  11. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Gatos, CA
    Posts
    266

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    So I went up to the boat this last weekend and took to this bolt. I tried the Alum and it was doing something but was too slow for the limited time I had, and I didn't feel comfortable just leaving it to work while not being there for the week. Same with the acid.

    I applied a lot of heat but the blower is a huge heat sink and I am not sure if much of it got to the bolt.

    One thing that occured to me is that the bolt might protrude into the air box. I have to pull the cylinder liners to free some stuck pistons and when I do that I should be able to get a torch into the air box from the non-blower side and heat the bolt directly on its "back side" aka the threaded end. This may also be the best place to drill it out from since the threads are right there, not five inches away.

    The only catch is that I would have to drop the oil pan and unbolt the connecting rods from below. I think there is room to do that. What there may not be room for is a few hammer blows to the rods in order to get the rod, piston, and liner to move up, and out of the block. Perhaps a crow bar through the inspection holes to the air box could be used to "motivate" the liners out??

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    551

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Quote Originally Posted by leop View Post
    So I went up to the boat this last weekend and took to this bolt. I tried the Alum and it was doing something but was too slow for the limited time I had, and I didn't feel comfortable just leaving it to work while not being there for the week. Same with the acid.

    I applied a lot of heat but the blower is a huge heat sink and I am not sure if much of it got to the bolt.

    One thing that occured to me is that the bolt might protrude into the air box. I have to pull the cylinder liners to free some stuck pistons and when I do that I should be able to get a torch into the air box from the non-blower side and heat the bolt directly on its "back side" aka the threaded end. This may also be the best place to drill it out from since the threads are right there, not five inches away.

    The only catch is that I would have to drop the oil pan and unbolt the connecting rods from below. I think there is room to do that. What there may not be room for is a few hammer blows to the rods in order to get the rod, piston, and liner to move up, and out of the block. Perhaps a crow bar through the inspection holes to the air box could be used to "motivate" the liners out??
    Seriously Leo! By the time you have done all of that I have to think you would be better off yanking the motor. At which point you have many other options for dealing with it.

  13. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Gatos, CA
    Posts
    266

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Seriously Leo! By the time you have done all of that I have to think you would be better off yanking the motor. At which point you have many other options for dealing with it.
    I have also thought about that. But, there is no hatch way access for a direct up pull. My options would be to: cut a hole in the cabin top, cut a hole in the house, or strip the engine down to the point where me and a couple of other guys could lift it. So far stripping it down is the only option I am comfortable with. But, by the time I have it stripped down I might as well just do an in-frame rebuild. The motors only show 3000 hours before the disaster occurred, there is no corrosion in the head or pan, none on the cam or balance shaft either.

    Am I being overly concerned about having to cut a hole in the cabin roof to get the engines out? Is it no big deal? The roof is fiberglass over plywood. It is arch shaped, but I don't see any ribs so I have no idea how they got that arch shape into it. My main fear is the cutout will spring flat and that I'll then have a heck of a time getting it back in and arched correctly.

    My weakness in this adventure is woodworking. That's why i tend to be conservative about that aspect of repair. I guess a wooden boat may not have been the best option for me LOL

  14. #64
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    551

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Hmmm. Yeah, that does change things a bit. Sorry Leo. I'm all out of suggestions now. I think you gotta go ahead with the plan you are comfortable with.

  15. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Gatos, CA
    Posts
    266

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    I wish there were more old timer shipwrights around. I would gladly pay them to come and explain to me how that plywood was arched with no ribs. Mind you it's from 1948 so I don't think it's laminated but there must be a way to find out what happens if you cut a hole in it.

    For the love of God, why do people do these things? Why would you let the boat sink in the first place. And when you raised it would it have been that hard to pickle the engines? I have never seen shoddy workmanship as that I have seen in boats. What is it about boats that causes people to do their worst work? It's not just my boat - a lot of boats I looked at buying had been real nice until about 10-15 years into their life. At that point the workmanship goes way down to the point of being dangerous. Gas fired home water heaters!!! speaker wire with 115V on it???? stuck open through hulls with wooden plugs driven in AS A PERMANENT FIX?

    I noticed you also have a 4-53 engine your boat. Are you happy with it (i have never heard one run) and does it make much noise?

  16. #66
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Southampton Ont. Canada
    Posts
    5,471

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    The blower is seized,isn't it?
    How much is good /rebuilt one?
    I'd be tempted to put the sawzall through it and get at the bolts from the clean dry side,instead of pissing with the wet dirty innards.

    R(who hasn't touched a Detroit since the mid 80s
    Last edited by Ron Williamson; 02-15-2017 at 08:35 PM.
    Sleep with one eye open.

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    551

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    A reman blower is $500-$1000 on eBay so not something you want to casually cut up, but I agree - not out of the question. Certainly might be worth doing that before a full in-frame rebuild on a motor that doesn't necessarily need one.

    Leo, I have a 3-53 in Petrel. Pretty similar to your 4-53s though. It's very noisy but I do like it a lot. My loyalty to the DD was secured when it started right up after sitting for over a year - and that after being half-submerged for who knows how long. And I have high hopes of taming the noise with better soundproofing. With the size of the engine room you must have, given that your boat was originally powered with 671s, I have to think you can get enough sound barrier in there so noise won't be a problem. And I assume your motors are wet exhaust, which will help. I have a friend with twin 4-71s in a boat of similar size to yours and I think they are plenty quiet enough.

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Gatos, CA
    Posts
    266

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Yes, the blower is seized but most places said they would accept it as a core so long as the case and rotors do not look overly pitted. My plan was to rebuild the blower, and if too much Alu is missing from the rotors and case I would send them out for and extra thick anodizing.

    Yes the engine room is fairly big and the 3-53's look pretty diminutive in there. There should be plenty of room for sound insulation.

    Half submerged does explain all the rust. As I recall you also had a pair of 6-71's in your speed boat and them as well right?

    At my wife's request I did a lot of work trying to quiet down the 6-71's before I decided to try and make these 4-53's run so if your interested in that let me know and I'll put together a quick thread. I have assumed the same things that worked on the the 6-71's will work on the 4-53's and a 3-53.

  19. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Gatos, CA
    Posts
    266

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Williamson View Post
    The blower is seized,isn't it?
    How much is good /rebuilt one?
    I'd be tempted to put the sawzall through it and get at the bolts from the clean dry side,instead of pissing with the wet dirty innards.

    R(who hasn't touched a Detroit since the mid 80s
    Hi Ron,

    Yes the blower is seized and the core. However it's still good as a core and the core charge on them is around $450 around these parts.

    If I didn't have to pull liners and pistons I agree with you, It would be saw time. But since I do I was thinking that coming in from the air box might allow me to save the blower.

  20. #70
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    551

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    At my wife's request I did a lot of work trying to quiet down the 6-71's before I decided to try and make these 4-53's run so if your interested in that let me know and I'll put together a quick thread. I have assumed the same things that worked on the the 6-71's will work on the 4-53's and a 3-53.
    Thanks Leo. I think I went down the same road. My list of links probably looks a lot like yours Although I also have a ton of stuff on dry stack setups as well since that's what I have on Petrel. And if you haven't signed up for a membership on boatdiesel.com yet then I HIGHLY recommend that site. Membership is not free, but it's cheap and the site is a tremendous source of info. In fact, not sure why I didn't think of this before, but that would be a great place to look for advice on getting the blower off.

  21. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Gatos, CA
    Posts
    266

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Thanks Leo. I think I went down the same road. My list of links probably looks a lot like yours Although I also have a ton of stuff on dry stack setups as well since that's what I have on Petrel. And if you haven't signed up for a membership on boatdiesel.com yet then I HIGHLY recommend that site. Membership is not free, but it's cheap and the site is a tremendous source of info. In fact, not sure why I didn't think of this before, but that would be a great place to look for advice on getting the blower off.
    Yes, all signed up on boat diesel for a few years now. That is a great site. Oddly though on this particular subject I got more and better ideas here on WB forum. On the noise front do some research into noise from the intake. When I did my testing I was surprised to hear a lot of noise coming from the intake. Not much information out there on quietening the intake though. I ended up building a folded horn with a null at the frequency of the most objectionable noise. It worked, and very little back pressure! It does look ugly though. Don't know if the smaller engines make the same intake noise, but it might be worth looking into. I think the source was back pumping from the blower but that was just a guess.

    Cheers

  22. #72
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    551

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Re: intake noise. Yes, definitely on my list. Tentative plan is to build a baffled duct for the intake but I'm going to deal with everything else first and see how bad it is.

  23. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Los Gatos, CA
    Posts
    266

    Default Re: How to free a steel to Aluminum corrosion bond

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Re: intake noise. Yes, definitely on my list. Tentative plan is to build a baffled duct for the intake but I'm going to deal with everything else first and see how bad it is.
    Yes of course! You don't have a cabin sole, so the status of engine noise is way down you list I am sure.

    She sure is cute. Reminds me of the little TUG that could. I like work boats for the same reasons I like old Dodge power wagons. Form following function is visually stimulating. Maybe because you see so little of that these days.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •