Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst ... 234 LastLast
Results 71 to 105 of 114

Thread: Phil Bolger consensus?

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North East England
    Posts
    677

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill in Oregon View Post
    Great thread. Chip, your adaptation of Gypsy is hard to get out of my mind.
    +1

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,963

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirc View Post
    the Blueberry, really interesting design, love the rig, and layout and size, but the very hard chine mostly looks right, except at very certain angles

    Do remember that Blueberry was effectlively a collaboration between the customer, David Hume, and Bolger. Read the book.
    I'm hoping to sail her one day, my friend and colleague Howard Rice was lucky enough to find out that she was for sale and now has her tucked away for when he has time out from other adventures to sail her. He's promised to have her in the water and ready for me when I get to Michigan, he gets to sail my "Spook" when he comes here.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NZ
    Posts
    2,087

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    What struck me was his "followers" almost religious attitudes. His boats may have filled a gap in the North American market but they are mostly impractical oddities as far as we are concerned down here. That about sums it up and now there are a few other small craft designers trying to market to his particular type of plans buyer. As mentioned above, there are plenty of lookers but not that many builders relatively and I think the market will become even more polarised, cheaper boxy designs and boats that end up needing money and skill to build. Perhaps Bolgers legacy will endure in the former?
    whatever rocks your boat

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    1,453

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    It may be one of his religious followers who created the Wiki article on Bolger, which reckons that the book New Instant Boats, written in 1984, popularised the "new" technique of stitch and glue. C'mon, tens of thousands of stitch and glue sailing boats had been afloat for years by that time.

    I was reading a Bolger book the other day and was struck by some of the odd things he wrote. For example, he said that he disliked sloop rigs because the ideal forestay was perfectly straight and that required infinitely large forces. However, that is simply wrong - as many racing classes show, you can often go faster by inducing MORE forestay sag. Secondly, the oft-repeated cry 'sloop rigs need tight forestays' comes mainly from those who champion alternative rigs and don't seem to look at reality. Very popular casses such as international Etchells, International Flying 15s and International Hobie 16s have loose forestays and still go well. Bolger's call on forestays was either grossly exaggerated or simply incorrect.

    He also wrote that cats had proven that when you were overpowered you should bear away and use centrifugal force to keep the hull down. If that was ever the case (and I can find nothing about it in the old cat sailing books I have) then it certainly was not true by the time he wrote the book. Cats are just like monos; you luff a bit when overpowered upwind and you bear away a bit when overpowered downwind. Bolger's odd idea lead him to believe that lee helm was better on a cat and that the best way to get it was a bow rudder. It's one of those cases where he, a person with little cat experience, decided that he was right and the entire cat sailing world, then and now, was wrong. To me, in a way that seems to be a very negative way of thinking. It's surely more positive to believe that Elvstrom, Reg Whyte, Rod March, Hobie Alter, C/S/K and others are bright guys who put the rudders in the right place because they know how to design good boats, than to believe that they were fools who put them in the wrong place.

    Some of the Bolger boats are cool, no doubt. My brother has one of his prams and he reckons it's a great tender.

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,963

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Bolger experimented a lot, oft times well outside the boundaries that confine so many. My liking for his work is that I can look at his writing and drawings, which are generally pretty honest about the pro's and cons of a given design, and I can learn from his work.
    Not all of his boats worked as intended, some were excellent and some were dogs, but there is something to learn from all of them, particularly in the field of small, amateur built boats. Much more so than many of the mainstream design houses.
    One of the issues as designers, is that we are generally not in a position to experiment committing clients money so unless we are designing for ourselves, we dont dare think very far outside the box.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    North East England
    Posts
    677

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Bolger experimented a lot, oft times well outside the boundaries that confine so many. My liking for his work is that I can look at his writing and drawings, which are generally pretty honest about the pro's and cons of a given design, and I can learn from his work.
    Not all of his boats worked as intended, some were excellent and some were dogs, but there is something to learn from all of them, particularly in the field of small, amateur built boats. Much more so than many of the mainstream design houses.
    One of the issues as designers, is that we are generally not in a position to experiment committing clients money so unless we are designing for ourselves, we dont dare think very far outside the box.

    John Welsford
    Nicely put, the rigs and open mind book are my most thumbed of all my sailing books

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Pohnpei, Micronesia and Michigan, USA
    Posts
    755

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Design genius is knowing how to make the right compromises leading to excellent results. All boats are compromises. Some of Phil's compromise boats are excellent but of course not perfect to all, others hard to comprehend. All great designers understand/understood the compromise trade off equation and this was one bit of Phil's genius. I believe he knew how to create joy on the water, sometimes stunning to the eye of the beholder and sometimes a stretch yet still offering joy of service to the beholder.

    Not all of his boats ticked the right boxes for me but in my opinion David Hume and Phil Bolger got this one right (David drew her and in collaboration Phil refined his work).

    I fell in love with Blueberry on first seeing her photo after launching. I consider her an iconic pocket yacht, one of the best in the genre.

    To the eye of this beholder she is a work of fine art and imbued with love by her builder David Hume.

    I patiently waited until the day she became available years later, a wait well worth it. She will sail this season after a short hiatus on land as I pursued another small boat vision. Thanks David, Thanks Phil, may fair winds always be at your backs!

    [IMG][/IMG]
    ][
    [IMG]
    [IMG]
    [IMG]
    [IMG]
    Last edited by Howard Rice; 03-25-2017 at 06:00 AM.

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    10,617

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Rice View Post
    Design genius is knowing how to make the right compromises leading to excellent results. All boats are compromises. Some of Phil's compromise boats are excellent but of course not perfect to all, others hard to comprehend. All great designers understand/understood the compromise trade off equation and this was one bit of Phil's genius. I believe he knew how to create joy on the water, sometimes stunning to the eye of the beholder and sometimes a stretch yet still offering joy of service to the beholder.

    Not all of his boats ticked the right boxes for me but in my opinion David Hume and Phil Bolger got this one right (David drew her and in collaboration Phil refined his work).

    I fell in love with Blueberry on first seeing her photo after launching. I consider her an iconic pocket yacht, one of the best in the genre.

    To the eye of this beholder she is a work of fine art and imbued with love by her builder David Hume.

    I patiently waited until the day she became available years later, a wait well worth it. She will sail this season after a short hiatus on land as I pursued another small boat vision. Thanks David, Thanks Phil, may fair winds always be at your backs!

    [IMG][/IMG]
    ][
    [IMG]
    [IMG]
    [IMG]
    [IMG]
    I am very jealous. In a healthy way.
    One of MY favorites, too.
    May you have many fine voyages in her.

    Peace,
    Robert

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    one foot in, one foot out
    Posts
    546

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Boy, but I miss Phil. It has been years now that he left, but his design of our boat (Chebacco, sheet ply version) made boating possible for us. It was a nice looking boat from early photos, an easy build, a good handling and quick on it's toes boat that could put a bit of a zest into the air or could noodle about. We trailer it to the lake for the summer season, trailer it home to the barn for the winter. Love looking at it on the water and in the barn. We've sailed it for about 10 years now and our gratitude to Phil grows each year. Each season we are approached by others who want to know what kind of boat it is, how old it is (most folks think it is an old catboat but are puzzled by the mizzen mast). Recently I found a letter from Phil in which, to a budding boat builder with limited experience, he guided me into the amateur boatbuilding world. I don't know why the Chebacco is not on the WB building forum nowadays. It seems a great boat for all times. I suppose Phil designs clouds now -- great ones, small ones, all kinds....
    Bolger sheetply Chebacco cat-yawl
    MacGregor 1939 Sabot dink
    Hill 14' ply lapstrake canoe
    Bryan Fiddlehead

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lake Champlain, Vermont
    Posts
    2,287

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Phil Bolger, national treasure.

  11. #81
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    BC Coast
    Posts
    3,434

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBudd View Post
    ............ I suppose Phil designs clouds now -- great ones, small ones, all kinds....
    Probably square ones with leeboards.....

  12. #82
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    17,596

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Is there anyone here that had actually sailed with Phil Bolger, or even seen him sailing? It was relayed to me maybe 30 years ago that his sailing techniques were "unique"
    That comment helped me to better understand his designs.

  13. #83
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Rockford, IL
    Posts
    8,469

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Interesting question! I did sail a number of times in the company of Peter Duff, in flotillas consisting of E&D Dovekies and Shearwater Yawls, both designs Peter undertook as the fruits of a close friendship with Bolger. I never notices anything "unique" about Peter's sailing technique, though it was plain he knew what he was doing, and was able to instruct others using very few words, as he was inflicted with Parkinson's disease throughout the years I knew him.

  14. #84
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Shubenacadie NS
    Posts
    3,725

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    But we weren't expecting it. It was a bit of a Surp..... Oh, never mind.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
    -Henry David Thoreau-

  15. #85
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    122-2216_IMG.jpg

    I built the prototype "Becky Thatcher" pedal-powered-paddlewheeler, and had an idyllic eight-day cruise on the Erie Canal System. I met Mr Bolger twice: he visited our project once during building, and took a fine day examining and trying the built prototype. Mr Bolger was very respectful of this inexperienced boatbuilder, a good listener and correspondent. Basically the requirement was to enable a beautiful, walking-pace tour of the canal system, with minimal worries, stress, and joint pain. I built to the plans as drawn, and she delivered what was requested. This was a "folly" -- that is, a romantic idea easily ridiculed by small-minded silly people, as impractical or wrong-headed. Nuts to them.

    He was a superb listener to ideas and questions which he must have heard a thousand times before. He would lead me to derive a practical answer. Becky Thatcher is by definition whimsical -- the complexity of a powerboat, the windage of a toolshed, and one-sixth rompin', stompin' horsepower. OTOH she steers precisely in locks, cruises effortlessly in small water, and lured many captains of fiberglass palaces (which are wonderful) to come jogging down the dock, grinning, to ask for a tour (conducted on hands and knees, looking through the port-side port). There was no formal requirement for coolth, but she drips puddles of it. Her requirements are extremely specific to a type of cruise, on a particular type of water, with a particular attitude. I wouldn't expect her to haul passengers, or mail, or skiers.

    I continue to read and reread Bolger books for the dry wit of his writing, the clarity of his ideas and honesty that he brings to his recollections.

    Summary: for his quick moves between wildly divergent requirements, and his steady contribution of teaching material and honest examination of his own work, I am a fan.

  16. #86
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    10,617

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeckysDad View Post
    122-2216_IMG.jpg

    I built the prototype "Becky Thatcher" pedal-powered-paddlewheeler, and had an idyllic eight-day cruise on the Erie Canal System. I met Mr Bolger twice: he visited our project once during building, and took a fine day examining and trying the built prototype. Mr Bolger was very respectful of this inexperienced boatbuilder, a good listener and correspondent. Basically the requirement was to enable a beautiful, walking-pace tour of the canal system, with minimal worries, stress, and joint pain. I built to the plans as drawn, and she delivered what was requested. This was a "folly" -- that is, a romantic idea easily ridiculed by small-minded silly people, as impractical or wrong-headed. Nuts to them.

    He was a superb listener to ideas and questions which he must have heard a thousand times before. He would lead me to derive a practical answer. Becky Thatcher is by definition whimsical -- the complexity of a powerboat, the windage of a toolshed, and one-sixth rompin', stompin' horsepower. OTOH she steers precisely in locks, cruises effortlessly in small water, and lured many captains of fiberglass palaces (which are wonderful) to come jogging down the dock, grinning, to ask for a tour (conducted on hands and knees, looking through the port-side port). There was no formal requirement for coolth, but she drips puddles of it. Her requirements are extremely specific to a type of cruise, on a particular type of water, with a particular attitude. I wouldn't expect her to haul passengers, or mail, or skiers.

    I continue to read and reread Bolger books for the dry wit of his writing, the clarity of his ideas and honesty that he brings to his recollections.

    Summary: for his quick moves between wildly divergent requirements, and his steady contribution of teaching material and honest examination of his own work, I am a fan.
    Oh, THAT I love. What a cool boat. How does the pedal drive operate?

    Peace,
    Robert

  17. #87
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Lexington, MA
    Posts
    752

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Phil Bolger is my favorite boat designer.
    I admire his boats for their simplicity, honesty, practicality, stability, ease of home building and beauty.
    Above all, his boats interact almost spiritually with, in, on, and around water.
    I am a Quaker. Phil's boats make me feel at peace.
    Phil, the man, must have been like his boats.

  18. #88
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Upstate New York
    Posts
    6

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    The seats/pedal units are frames from recumbent bicycles. With various bearings, sprockets and shafts the drive is directed to an idler shaft in the bow, and then aft along the starboard hull panel to the sternwheel that's just visible under the stern. There's only one gear in the WalkAbout although the plans call for multiples, using available bicycle tech.

    If we relaxed and let our leg weight move the pedals we got 2-3 knots, which was what we had in mind. If we gritted our teeth and sacrificed our knee joints - - we got 2-3 knots. This suggested a strategy for effort management which we followed. The folks at Bolger & Co had some ideas for coaxing a bit more speed out of her which was, I believe, the motive behind the flurry of articulated paddlewheel activity we saw for a while. Having spent a year producing exactly the boat I wanted, I was not much motivated to re-engineer the back end. I didn't discuss this with them, but here's my theory: the "wheel" is actually a drum, intended to help support the stern. I think that this means that we have long hull in front, with a long hull's hull speed, towing a drum sideways (sort of), which acts like a 1-2 foot "short hull" with a tiny boat's hull speed. We tried trimming her forward by moved weight -- the boat moved easier through the water, I assume we were lifting the "short hull" from the water. Were I looking for more speed I'd try replacing the drum with an open strut framework (a more traditional wheel), which might eliminate the short hull.

    All that said, let me reiterate -- I didn't discuss such a fix with Bolger & Friends. And, we didn't care much about it, walking pace is the way to see autumn on the Canal in upstate New York. We were sheltered, comfortable. The wheel was well-protected inside the wheelbox, and sacrificial rubrails were the only wood that showed wear from the lock. Twin rudders and centerboard delivered precise, quick steering, and the cabin structure (1/8" door-skins over 1" foam cores) was surprisingly stiff and sturdy.

    I put two Public Albums of pictures in Facebook, I think. They are named "Building WalkAbout" and "Cruising WalkAbout". Go to my ID ("Paul Everett") and look for "Featured Albums".

    For a big adventure, build is a little boat.

    Cheers, Paul Everett

  19. #89
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    10,617

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeckysDad View Post
    The seats/pedal units are frames from recumbent bicycles. With various bearings, sprockets and shafts the drive is directed to an idler shaft in the bow, and then aft along the starboard hull panel to the sternwheel that's just visible under the stern. There's only one gear in the WalkAbout although the plans call for multiples, using available bicycle tech.

    If we relaxed and let our leg weight move the pedals we got 2-3 knots, which was what we had in mind. If we gritted our teeth and sacrificed our knee joints - - we got 2-3 knots. This suggested a strategy for effort management which we followed. The folks at Bolger & Co had some ideas for coaxing a bit more speed out of her which was, I believe, the motive behind the flurry of articulated paddlewheel activity we saw for a while. Having spent a year producing exactly the boat I wanted, I was not much motivated to re-engineer the back end. I didn't discuss this with them, but here's my theory: the "wheel" is actually a drum, intended to help support the stern. I think that this means that we have long hull in front, with a long hull's hull speed, towing a drum sideways (sort of), which acts like a 1-2 foot "short hull" with a tiny boat's hull speed. We tried trimming her forward by moved weight -- the boat moved easier through the water, I assume we were lifting the "short hull" from the water. Were I looking for more speed I'd try replacing the drum with an open strut framework (a more traditional wheel), which might eliminate the short hull.

    All that said, let me reiterate -- I didn't discuss such a fix with Bolger & Friends. And, we didn't care much about it, walking pace is the way to see autumn on the Canal in upstate New York. We were sheltered, comfortable. The wheel was well-protected inside the wheelbox, and sacrificial rubrails were the only wood that showed wear from the lock. Twin rudders and centerboard delivered precise, quick steering, and the cabin structure (1/8" door-skins over 1" foam cores) was surprisingly stiff and sturdy.

    I put two Public Albums of pictures in Facebook, I think. They are named "Building WalkAbout" and "Cruising WalkAbout". Go to my ID ("Paul Everett") and look for "Featured Albums".

    For a big adventure, build is a little boat.

    Cheers, Paul Everett
    Lovely.

    I am in the middle of building a pedal powered car for my youngest son, and discovered a novel drive design from the dawn of the safety bicycle.
    I have long wanted a stern or sidewheel boat to paddle around the backwaters of the Delta And way up the river near me.
    A pedal powered paddle wheel boat makes me very excited.

    I have an old hull might make a nice test bed for a miniature pedal powered side wheeler...

    Thank you for the info. Iíll get someone with a Facebook to check out the build with me.

    Peace,
    Robert

  20. #90
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    7

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    I'd give Bolger's designs a definite thumbs up even though many of his designs I find push boundaries.

    I came across my first Bolger boat in Paris. An American couple built a small sailboat for their trip from Norway to the south of France. It was very simple, utilizing Bolger's signature offset centerboard and not even painted, raw plywood, for a one way trip. Though was a disposable boat, the design was well appreciated by those the little harbor there. Worked out brilliant for the couple too, though they said the boat had a lot of limitations, the tabernacled masts allowed it to sail in canals.

    Later on I found a Dovekie and sailed it in waters from Florida to the Pacific Northwest. Made a great camper, shallow water champion but certainly not a racing boat. The design pushed boundaries and it was brilliant for what it was designed to do. I last saw the boat it was in the hands of a fellow who was talking about sailing it to Alaska. They are good designs for the dreamer in us all.

  21. #91
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Decatur, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    170

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeckysDad View Post
    For a big adventure, build is a little boat. Cheers, Paul Everett
    I'll raise my glass to that! I've loved Bolger and his boats since the '70s, and am refitting a Teal, 12' sailing and rowing plywood Instant Boat, that I built in 1982 and have enjoyed many adventures and one or two Major Learning Experiences in!


  22. #92
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    17,596

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Lovely.
    a miniature pedal powered side wheeler...



    Peace,
    Robert
    Split sections from a piece of 4" PVC pipe attached to a wooden 8-10 spoked wheel make a pretty efficient "paddle wheel" in the manner of a Pelton Wheel. Saw that built with bicycle bits on the back of a canvas covered SOF boat... Just sayin'

  23. #93
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    central cal
    Posts
    10,617

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    Split sections from a piece of 4" PVC pipe attached to a wooden 8-10 spoked wheel make a pretty efficient "paddle wheel" in the manner of a Pelton Wheel. Saw that built with bicycle bits on the back of a canvas covered SOF boat... Just sayin'
    Dang if I donít have a decent length of 4Ē pipe. Hmmm.

    I think I may have to build a new rudder for the old sailing canoe, after all...

    Peace,
    Robert

  24. #94
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Oriental, NC USA
    Posts
    4,084

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Not sure that much is left to say abut the different opinions held about Phil Bolger. I do think calling him a genius is a stretch when matched against those who truely qualify for that title. Take Burt Rutan, for instance, who is one of the very few I have met that are clearly a genius.
    Tom L

  25. #95
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
    Posts
    1,950

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Having met Rutan I can agree.
    Having not met Bolger I can only judge by what I see, and I think the boats are anything but beautiful (previous post), and there have been too many reports about designs that were not really developed where the should have been.

  26. #96
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Waterbury, Connecticut
    Posts
    1,946

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    I was given an unfinished Windsprint hull (Payson had something to do with it, not just Bolger), which everybody tells me is not a good boat. Someday I will finish it and see how true that judgement is. (To my eye, it looks like a small double-ended sharpie with middle-rocker, probably a loss of power due to the double-ending, but not necessarily horrible....). -- Wade

  27. #97
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    462

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Not sure that much is left to say abut the different opinions held about Phil Bolger. I do think calling him a genius is a stretch when matched against those who truely qualify for that title. Take Burt Rutan, for instance, who is one of the very few I have met that are clearly a genius.
    Nothing against Rutan but he was innovating on fifty years of flying machines, Bolger was up against thousands of years of floating machines. I enjoy Bolger's books and believe his contributions to boatbuilding have been a great thing. You can appreciate Bolger and still move on from Bricks.

  28. #98
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Beaufort, NC
    Posts
    1,106

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    I have built a few Bricks, a couple of Teals, a Junebug, and my first project was an, AS29. His building instructions were spot on. My only experience with carpentrybefore that was a pair of saw horses and the strongback. Hurricane Fran ate here while still on the stocks. His gold platers were very pretty too but curves cost. At the moment I have a Brick in the backyard, and half a Junebug next to my shop full of bits of lumber. The Teal was sweet. When hurricane Floyd rolled in, I tossed my Teal in my truck and whent over to Buck Tilleys stables to row into the barn and release the horses( chest deep water) and row into the tack shop and salvage saddles. Try that in a pully shell.

  29. #99
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    US
    Posts
    3,404

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Bolger was a genius in his own right. He got people on the water that moved along to bigger and better hulls by many people's comparisons. But the joy of being on the water is and was the same, putting smiles on people's faces as they knew little difference in the building of their first boat. Now let me get my bag of popcorn.;<}

    IMG_1507.jpg
    Last edited by erster; 11-10-2017 at 09:54 AM.
    WBF=DNC

  30. #100
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Oriental, NC USA
    Posts
    4,084

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by sailnstink View Post
    Nothing against Rutan but he was innovating on fifty years of flying machines, Bolger was up against thousands of years of floating machines. I enjoy Bolger's books and believe his contributions to boatbuilding have been a great thing. You can appreciate Bolger and still move on from Bricks.
    I expected some pushback but the main statement above shows a lack of appreciation for the huge difference between an aircraft and a boat. Any old bit of clobbered together chunk of wood will float and, if large enough, will keep a person from drowning. An aircraft is another thing altogether. Do it wrong and you are dead. Rutan's contributions are not only great departures from what is normally done but are often of superior performance in a field where expert peer criticisms can be very harsh. Bolger's novel creations often do very well among the general boating public but often fail the expert peer criticism test.
    Tom L

  31. #101
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    462

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    I expected some pushback but the main statement above shows a lack of appreciation for the huge difference between an aircraft and a boat. Any old bit of clobbered together chunk of wood will float and, if large enough, will keep a person from drowning. An aircraft is another thing altogether. Do it wrong and you are dead. Rutan's contributions are not only great departures from what is normally done but are often of superior performance in a field where expert peer criticisms can be very harsh. Bolger's novel creations often do very well among the general boating public but often fail the expert peer criticism test.
    Kinda goes for both eh? Bad boats have killed more people than bad airplanes. Rutan's superior creations have turned out to be less popular than Bolger's boxes.

  32. #102
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Fort Worth, Texas, USA
    Posts
    1,950

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Aircraft always have been fewer in number and higher cost for capacity than any boat except for aircraft carriers/ nuc subs.
    The risk of die'ing in an aircraft has always been significantly higher from mistakes.
    Not a real comparison.
    Tom's comment about "any old piece of wood" applies.

  33. #103
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Oriental, NC USA
    Posts
    4,084

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by sailnstink View Post
    Kinda goes for both eh? Bad boats have killed more people than bad airplanes. Rutan's superior creations have turned out to be less popular than Bolger's boxes.
    I am a boat loving nut and especially wooden boats as well as a builder, designer and user of same. I'm also an airplane nut since the 1930's, flying when it can be helping construct experimental homebuilts and making wooden propellers for them. This particular discussion could be very interesting, but only if addressed with a good measure of reason. Sorry to say that the last comment has no reasonable part in this discussion. True enough but meaningless anyway. If there were any meaning to it, the Mona Lisa would never have been heard of.

    Please come back with a reply with both reason and interest.
    Tom L

  34. #104
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    462

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Bolger boxes are more popular in the woodenboat community than Rutan's designs are in the experimental aircraft community. Bolger has had designs commercially built, Rutan none that I am aware of. I fly far more than I go boating, and Rutan has done a ton of cool stuff, but Bolger has been more prolific and more popular. For fun I'd rather fly a Rutan plane than sail a Bolger box, but Bolger is more popular in his respective community.

  35. #105
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Oriental, NC USA
    Posts
    4,084

    Default Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

    Quote Originally Posted by sailnstink View Post
    Bolger boxes are more popular in the woodenboat community than Rutan's designs are in the experimental aircraft community. Bolger has had designs commercially built, Rutan none that I am aware of. I fly far more than I go boating, and Rutan has done a ton of cool stuff, but Bolger has been more prolific and more popular. For fun I'd rather fly a Rutan plane than sail a Bolger box, but Bolger is more popular in his respective community.
    Still no contribution of any importance. Try seeing how much the homebuilt community thinks of Rutan at EAA. Burt's contributions to this community completely dwarfs anything Bolger has done in the boating world. And again, numbers mean nothing. If numbers meant anything, foam Snarks bought at the local box store would be the most important boating craft ever made.
    Tom L

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •