Phil Bolger consensus?

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

tink: I was answering skaraborgcraft's question on the previous page about why Bolger's designs were not produced in quantity. BTW, Peter Duff (of Edey & Duff) and Phil Bolger were long-time close friends. Another Bolger design for which E&D made a mold and attempted to market was Ladyslipper, a full-keel dinghy (how's that for a dichotomy of terms?).

[Ian McColgin]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Can't remember the publication but Bolger used to have a design thoughts column featuring what he called "cartoons" - rough ideas sketched in response to various suggestions. And some he built. And some failed amusingly. Someone wanted a planing paddle wheeler. So Bolger and Dynamite Payson thought it through and built a sort of scow box with paddle wheel. The paddle wheel took a few evolutions before they hit on making it like a barrel so that it would not pick up so much water. They may have also thought about articulating the paddle blades, or maybe that was my own nutso idea reading it. Can't remember. Anyway, that helped but it still really dug its own hole in the water, just would not plane. So they added a canard out front. And that worked great. Till they hit the small wave of another boat's wake and the canard collapsed under them.

What I most admired about the piece with the full out gusto with which Bolger enjoyed his failure. Not just open mind . . . fun with boats.

I think he'd have enjoyed seeing me at twelve. My swamp-boy buddy and I found a floating telephone pole we played about with, eventually nailing some 2x4's at right angles to the pole so we could stand and do a lumberjack log roll, thus propelling ourselves about half way across Port Jefferson harbor before police boat put a stop to our nautical adventure.

[Chris249]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Chris, catamarans in a gust often bear away because centrifugal force when luffing may capsize them. And in my country we have several lake districts connected with canals with bridges, so most boats have a tabernacle and lowering the mast is considered easier with a shorter mast. When native boats were used most of them had a wooden mast and gaff rig, now it is plastic import bermuda with spreaders. And especially gunter rig is just as fast as bermuda. I will show a class where all racers choose gaff instead of bermuda

With respect, FF, I cannot find a single modern catamaran sailor who advocates bearing away in a gust in a cat, apart from the situations in which a mono would also bear away.

I've sailed multis with guys like a four-time national champ, cat designer Lock Crowther, a multiple winner of our biggest offshore multi race, the guy who was 5th in the Tornado nationals on an old boat, and raced lots against world A Class champs and runners-up, and Olympic cat medallists. My wife's been crew for the four-time national champ in the Olympic Tornado worlds. We've never heard of bearing a cat away upwind in a gust in the way Bolger meant, or seen it done by competent sailors.

I also pulled out three cat racing books from my shelf, ranging from Bob Fisher's '60s classic to (Olympic medallist) Scott Andersen's '80s book. None of them mentions bearing away in a gust upwind. I googled the subject for a few pages, and every response agreed that you should luff a cat upwind in a gust, not bear away. One of those responses, incidentally, was from Richard Woods.

Sure, we bear away downwind in gusts or for tactical reasons - but monos do that as well, and apparently that's not what Bolger was talking about since he was specifically talking about it as something that cats do and monos don't. The other possibility is that Bolger wasn't aware that fast monos (and many other monos) bear away in gusts downwind just like cats do.

One of the Google hits indicates that one old book on cruising cats advocated bearing off in gusts upwind. It appears that Bolger may have taken that one bit of advice (which is generally considered a bad mistake that could have fatal consequences) and assumed that it was correct, for reasons unknown. That may point out the limits of his knowledge in that area. One would not normally criticise someone for that, but since Bolger spent so much time criticising other designers and their boats I have no compunction in criticising his ideas.

[MN Dave]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Can't remember the publication but Bolger used to have a design thoughts column featuring what he called "cartoons" - rough ideas sketched in response to various suggestions. And some he built. And some failed amusingly. Someone wanted a planing paddle wheeler. So Bolger and Dynamite Payson thought it through and built a sort of scow box with paddle wheel. The paddle wheel took a few evolutions before they hit on making it like a barrel so that it would not pick up so much water. They may have also thought about articulating the paddle blades, or maybe that was my own nutso idea reading it. Can't remember. Anyway, that helped but it still really dug its own hole in the water, just would not plane. So they added a canard out front. And that worked great. Till they hit the small wave of another boat's wake and the canard collapsed under them.

What I most admired about the piece with the full out gusto with which Bolger enjoyed his failure. Not just open mind . . . fun with boats.

I think he'd have enjoyed seeing me at twelve. My swamp-boy buddy and I found a floating telephone pole we played about with, eventually nailing some 2x4's at right angles to the pole so we could stand and do a lumberjack log roll, thus propelling ourselves about half way across Port Jefferson harbor before police boat put a stop to our nautical adventure.

It might have been Messing About in Boats. The Column lives on with Susan Altenburger.

http://www.messingaboutinboats.com/

[Woxbox]

The column originated in Small Boat Monthly and moved to MAIB later.

[Chris249]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]9548[/ATTACH]Every racer preferred the gaff version of this boat. It is designed in 1945 and still a popular boat. It is a 'Vrijheid', loa 5,4m, 1,65m wide, draft0,75m, sa 14,2m2

Sure, and the 12 Square Metre Sharpie class abandoned the optional marconi rig in favour of gaff too.

However, on the other side of the coin, we know that Stars, 18, 16 and 12 Foot Skiffs, 6,8,10,12 and 12 Metres, Redwings, Mirrors, Herons, Belfast Fairies, International Canoes, H Jolle, Z Jolle, International 14s, New Zealand's L Class, X Class, T Class, IA class, P Class, Z class, A Class, St Mawes One Designs, British X-Class, Victories, Thames Raters, One Raters, A Scows, Suicides, Skerry Cruiser/Square Metre yachts, RORC and CCA Rule yachts, Swedish A,B,C,D,E class canoes and the Netherland's development-class Vrijbuiters and many, many other types, all abandoned the gaff or gunter in favour of bermudan.

The many people who dumped gaff in favour of bermudan were not stupid, as is sometimes implied. They did it for good reasons. Yes, some classes kept to gunter and gaff rig, often because the stability, sail area or the required lift/drag and heeling moments suited the gaff. As noted earlier, experts agreed that for some boats the gaff worked better and in other boats the bermudan rig worked better.

If bermudan only dominated because of peer pressure, it would never have caught on. And if bermudan rig was only popular because of conformity or rules (like Bolger and others claim) then surely the gaff and gunter rigs would also surely have died out in the Vrijheid, Sharpie and other classes too. The fact that gaff and gunter survived for so long in some classes seems to indicate that where such rigs work best, they are completely accepted by most people. The Australian Heron class, for example, kept the gunter for many years and only switched to bermudan when the available material changed. There was no significant opposition to keeping the gunter rig and no stupidity involved in changing to bermudan - it was the logical outcome of the changes in technology.

Surely all this indicates that the choice of rig and hull is not ruled by foolishness or ignorance, as Bolger and others infer - instead it's normally a logical outcome of a complicated set of factors. Surely a truly open mind accepts that other people can have different tastes, needs and desires when it comes to balancing all those factors and choosing their boat. To me, the fact that Bolger ignored or disregarded many of those factors and denigrated those who chose "normal" rigs and boats undermines his status and his claims of having an open mind.

[Chris249]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

You must have posted the long reply and edited it out later because it in my inbox. It is a shame because it was very informative. Perhaps it should just be in a new thread.

Thanks, but I think I've forgotten it. Whoops!

[Chris249]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

As for "conventional" preferences in boats, there's no way someone enamored with cunninghams and vangs will purchase a boat in which a snotter is the principal tool for shaping the mainsail.

But sorry, vast numbers of people who use cunninghams and vangs DO purchase boats in which snotters are vital. The most popular sailboat in the world has one, and every year lots of parents who are used to bermudan sloops buy them for their kids. If the 'conventional' sailors were so ignorant and moribund then why would they buy sprit-rigged boats in such vast numbers?

Garda Optis.jpg

The most popular racing classes in the world include classes like the Opti, Laser, 420, Techno 293, and Hobie 16. Only one of those is a conventional sloop rig. If 'conventional' yacht club sailors are biased against unconventional rigs then why unconventional rigs so popular?

Here in Australia, the Opti was a very late arrival into a scene which had several other long-established junior pram classes with various different bermudan rigs. And yet when the Opti arrived, the "yacht club set" who were used to cunningham and vang just looked at the sprit rig and said "hmm, OK - we see how it works and its advantages in this context" and they quickly adopted the class in its hundreds. How could that have happened if sailors were sheep-like and those who were used to cunninghams couldn't take to a snotter?

[tink]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

With respect, FF, I cannot find a single modern catamaran sailor who advocates bearing away in a gust in a cat, apart from the situations in which a mono would also bear away.

I've sailed multis with guys like a four-time national champ, cat designer Lock Crowther, a multiple winner of our biggest offshore multi race, the guy who was 5th in the Tornado nationals on an old boat, and raced lots against world A Class champs and runners-up, and Olympic cat medallists. My wife's been crew for the four-time national champ in the Olympic Tornado worlds. We've never heard of bearing a cat away upwind in a gust in the way Bolger meant, or seen it done by competent sailors.

I also pulled out three cat racing books from my shelf, ranging from Bob Fisher's '60s classic to (Olympic medallist) Scott Andersen's '80s book. None of them mentions bearing away in a gust upwind. I googled the subject for a few pages, and every response agreed that you should luff a cat upwind in a gust, not bear away. One of those responses, incidentally, was from Richard Woods.

Sure, we bear away downwind in gusts or for tactical reasons - but monos do that as well, and apparently that's not what Bolger was talking about since he was specifically talking about it as something that cats do and monos don't. The other possibility is that Bolger wasn't aware that fast monos (and many other monos) bear away in gusts downwind just like cats do.

One of the Google hits indicates that one old book on cruising cats advocated bearing off in gusts upwind. It appears that Bolger may have taken that one bit of advice (which is generally considered a bad mistake that could have fatal consequences) and assumed that it was correct, for reasons unknown. That may point out the limits of his knowledge in that area. One would not normally criticise someone for that, but since Bolger spent so much time criticising other designers and their boats I have no compunction in criticising his ideas.

I spend a week or two in the summer at a dinghy sailing resort where the the sailing is run by RYA instructors, I am not a cat man but give it a go because I am on holiday. At different resorts over the years they always say ‘Catamarans aren’t like dinghies bear away in the gusts’. I think for a novice luffing too much and the apparent wind changing may cause issues. I would also image the advice works as the last thing the resort staff want to deal with is some novice a capsized Catamaran.

I think Bolgers criticism was focused on modern racing designs in general rather than specific designers. Highly stressed rigs to get a fraction of a knot or 5 degrees closer to the wind is only of use for racing, not everyone wants to race. I was talking to a National level Laser sailor a few months ago. Asked how much tension to put on the Cunningham and Vang he said, if your sail is not wrecked after a regatta then your not putting on enough, madness in my opinion.

Bolger was probably more critical of himself than any other designer and was honest when things didn’t work. Considering the breadth and depth of what he designed a few blind alleys are inevitable. Many othe designers make small iterations of an existing design and so are in a much safer place.


To some making spars from Home Depot / B&Q lumber appeals
To some makes sails from an old tarp appeals
To some stowing spars in the boat appeals
To some a blunt bow but a shorter boat appeals
To some a box shape but shallow draft appeal
To some a clean cockpit but having to use a leeboard appeals
To some a compromised shape but a quick, cheap and easy build appeals
To some a compromised shape but a roomy boat appeals

Bolger in no way ‘invented’ these ideas but he combined them and facilitated and inspired people to build boats that suited their needs. Not going fast, not racing, just enjoying time on the water in an uncomplicated way.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

I'll tell you what you won't find, Chris249, is any cruising sailboat in the 20 to 40ft range other than a one-off, employing a snotter to rig a sprit, nor any more than just several (world-wide) employing a wishbone rig for the mainsail. By far the vast majority of sailboats ranging from the McGregor-26, the J-24, and a Juneau-41 employ the same basic rig. Were one to bother attending what passes for a boat show these days the only feature one might see in the rig on any sailboat noticeably differernt from those mentioned in my previous sentence would be a fully battened mainsail.

[tink]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

I'll tell you what you won't find, Chris249, is any cruising sailboat in the 20 to 40ft range other than a one-off, employing a snotter to rig a sprit, nor any more than just several (world-wide) employing a wishbone rig for the mainsail. By far the vast majority of sailboats ranging from the McGregor-26, the J-24, and a Juneau-41 employ the same basic rig. Were one to bother attending what passes for a boat show these days the only feature one might see in the rig on any sailboat noticeably differernt from those mentioned in my previous sentence would be a fully battened mainsail.

That is because the marketing guys want to play it safe and are scared to do anything too radical. I addition the rating schemes only allow for the Bermudan rig. Bolger offered an alternative to boat show boats and appeals to people who would never consider attending a boat show.

[Chris249]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

That's very strange about the cat instructions, Tink. If you bear away upwind in a breeze in most cats you'll capsize straight away. The apparent wind will increase dramatically, which is why bearing away at the top mark is a hairy moment in many very fast craft. As noted, the texts and top sailors I know of do NOT agree with it and I have never seen a single sailor do it in a dozen years of cat racing.

The national-level Laser sailors I know don't agree with the guy you spoke to about sail life. I was inside the top 10 nationally overall and in the top 3 in Masters myself and got far more than one regatta per sail. My brother had only had one borrowed sail, one new sail and the world championship charter boat sail in his entire Laser career, which included winning the youth nationals and being inside the top 25 in the open worlds. A friend who has been world women's champion and an Olympian also would not agree with him at all; in fact some top sailors specifically often train and race on older gear.

The other issue is that we're talking about people searching for tiny differences in performance, of a length or so each mile or two. If you ease the tension of on a bermudan rig, you'll reduce the loads dramatically and yet often still be ahead of one of Bolger's favoured rigs. Conversely, if you pushed a Bolger rig to the limit in the same way as top-class bermudan rigs are sometimes driven, it could also fail. Surely we've got to compare like to like as much as possible.

Some of Bolger's claims are like the one that forestays always had to be tightened to the max to get good performance - it's simply BS; for example you only have to get to page 2 on the "headsail trimming" section of North Sails' 'Fast Course' book to see it disproven. Bolger's claim was something that showed bias, sloppiness or an amazing lack of sail trimming knowledge.

The rating schemes certainly allow for non-bermudan rigs. I've posted the old CCA and RORC allowances here several times before. They allowed a significant increase in sail area for non-bermudan rigs. Some other 'unconventional' features such as wishbone rigs aren't penalised under any rule I know of.

While it could be good in some respects if the rating rules gave even more extra sail area to non-bermudan rigs just for the sake of diversity, as you'd know sail area in racing boats costs a lot of money even if it is low aspect. The IOR and IMS gave some rigs other than the bermudan sloop excessive credit at times (remember Farr's ketch-rigged maxis?) and people found out that (all else being equal) the extra area and spars came at an enormous increase in cost. Given that, it is reasonable to give smaller rigs good treatment - I know I don't want to have to go out and spend thousands of dollars more on bigger and lower sails and in fact I've just gone the other way at a great saving in cost, sail wear and handling.

Bottom line - To the extent that Bolger offered an alternative, great. I've always said I wouldn't mind a Folding Schooner for fun and we actually have a Bolger dinghy in the family that I sometimes use, I think. But I don't agree with all of Bolger's claims about rigs, and particularly don't like his express or implied insults about the other sailors who dared to have different tastes and desires to him.

[Chris249]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

I'll tell you what you won't find, Chris249, is any cruising sailboat in the 20 to 40ft range other than a one-off, employing a snotter to rig a sprit, nor any more than just several (world-wide) employing a wishbone rig for the mainsail. By far the vast majority of sailboats ranging from the McGregor-26, the J-24, and a Juneau-41 employ the same basic rig. Were one to bother attending what passes for a boat show these days the only feature one might see in the rig on any sailboat noticeably differernt from those mentioned in my previous sentence would be a fully battened mainsail.

The mere fact that a certain form of technology is very popular does not mean that those who prefer it should be insulted by being called "folks possessing little in the way of imagination" who are trying only to impress. The fact that a certain form of technology is very popular may just mean that it does what most people want it do to very well in objective terms. They may just have different preferences to you and those who sail boats like yours, and therefore want a different rig.

Since we know for a fact that (contrary to what was specifically claimed) an enormous number of sailors enamoured with vangs and cunninghams WILL actually buy a rig that relies on a snotter, any inference that they are ruled by conservatism appears to be extremely dubious. As noted, most of the world's most popular sailing craft have 'unconventional' rigs and an enormous number of sailors have grown up using them so there is lots of evidence that there is NO significant bias against unconventional rigs.

Like many hundreds of thousands of windsurfer sailors I'm extremely familiar with wishbones, by the way. My family abandoned the one on the 25fter years ago, but kept the one on the 38 foot cat where it works brilliantly. They do work well indeed in some applications. However, wishbone rigs have downsides and compromises and there seems to be no reason to belittle those who prefer 'conventional' rigs.

Sure, conventional rigs are popular on boats. So are round wheels on cars. Doesn't mean that the owners of either lack imagination or knowledge.

[sailnstink]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Time to settle this once and for all. I will build a catamaran out of two Bolger bricks and bear away in gusts. But what sail to use?

[Oldad]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Time to settle this once and for all. I will build a catamaran out of two Bolger bricks and bear away in gusts. But what sail to use?

Whatever design you choose, be sure to make it from a blue tarp