Phil Bolger consensus?

[tink]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

I think Phil liked to keep it as simple as he could. My problem was that I had seen the really elegant shapes that the Brits and others were developing in plywood, and thought Phil's stuff was unnecessarily simplistic. But if you limit yourself to 1/4 inch fir plywood, there are things you just will not be able to do, and I fear mediocrity is the result. Yes, it was cheap and simple to build, but at the end of the day if it really isn't any better than the aluminum Jon boat you could have bought used on Craig's list, why did you bother?
I'm pretty sure Phil would have agreed with this line of reasoning. So at his best he brought other things to the table, like the Light Dory, which as a light simple pulling boat is hard to beat. Or really easy, make it a little longer and a little lighter. And there is no commercial alternative. The Folding Schooner was just plain fun and SpeakEasy was elegant. But I fear I find most of his design solutions pretty obvious. And if they are obvious to me, they probably aren't genius.
SHC

genius is obvious is hindsight. If read his books and listen to him being interviewed his understanding of flow of water around is profound. I would argue to get low drag flow around a box section hull is exponentially hard than around an obvious streamlined hull.

from an earlier post

http://www.furledsails.com/article.php3?article=777

http://www.furledsails.com/article.php3?article=778

[SHClark]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

I thought that post would enliven the New Year.
The thing that differentiated Dr Suess was his art and illustration. For the verse, look to Edward Lear, W.S. Gilbert, and Lewis Carrol for antecedents , Ogden Nash for contemporaries, and most rappers for subsequent practitioners. Rappers cover topics not typically found on the Woodenboat Forum but the rhyme structure is very similar to Dr Suess. Drop a Beastie Boys beat on Green Eggs and Ham and you will see what I mean.
As near as I can tell, Phil never offered any evidence of his theory's on flow other than, if you get it right it doesn't matter much. Which is pretty tepid. Match the topsides curvature to the bottom curvature and she'll be right? Or I'm going to keep this mysterious so people think there is some magic to it. I am not aware that he ever offered any proof or any evidence of scientific study to support his claims. He was so charismatic that he was taken at his word.
In other cases he was simply wrong, and other evidence shows it. Modern sailmaking is better than traditional sailmaking, and this isn't just rule driven racy stuff. It makes you gag to write the check, but the sails are better. Properly profiled centerboards and rudders pay a significant dividend in performance under sail, and are worth the compromise the moment they can be fully deployed.
There is lots of scientific study and evidence to support the design and optimization of these things I don't think it is an act of genius to deny it. You may not like the price, but that doesn't negate the science. Your value judgement of what you are willing to pay for what level of refinement is, of course, up to you. But some of it is fairly easy to achieve if you accept the proposition that much of what the racing sailors do is to make very ordinary boats sail better, they aren't all stupid, and what they know might make your simple boat sail better and therefore be more able, seaworthy and enjoyable. I view this as part and parcel of becoming an expert and expanding the capabilities of your vessel and your seamanship.
Next up, Climate Change.
It may amuse Ian to know that Henry Wood, one of the Government Center architects also owned Bolger's Pointer. Henry is also famous for rescuing Clingstone, the house on the Dumplings just across from Newport, staging bohemian raves in the 70's and mooning anyone and everyone he felt deserved such treatment. He too has crossed the bar, and has left the world a lesser place.
SHC

[tink]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

I thought that post would enliven the New Year.
The thing that differentiated Dr Suess was his art and illustration. For the verse, look to Edward Lear, W.S. Gilbert, and Lewis Carrol for antecedents , Ogden Nash for contemporaries, and most rappers for subsequent practitioners. Rappers cover topics not typically found on the Woodenboat Forum but the rhyme structure is very similar to Dr Suess. Drop a Beastie Boys beat on Green Eggs and Ham and you will see what I mean.
As near as I can tell, Phil never offered any evidence of his theory's on flow other than, if you get it right it doesn't matter much. Which is pretty tepid. Match the topsides curvature to the bottom curvature and she'll be right? Or I'm going to keep this mysterious so people think there is some magic to it. I am not aware that he ever offered any proof or any evidence of scientific study to support his claims. He was so charismatic that he was taken at his word.
In other cases he was simply wrong, and other evidence shows it. Modern sailmaking is better than traditional sailmaking, and this isn't just rule driven racy stuff. It makes you gag to write the check, but the sails are better. Properly profiled centerboards and rudders pay a significant dividend in performance under sail, and are worth the compromise the moment they can be fully deployed.
There is lots of scientific study and evidence to support the design and optimization of these things I don't think it is an act of genius to deny it. You may not like the price, but that doesn't negate the science. Your value judgement of what you are willing to pay for what level of refinement is, of course, up to you. But some of it is fairly easy to achieve if you accept the proposition that much of what the racing sailors do is to make very ordinary boats sail better, they aren't all stupid, and what they know might make your simple boat sail better and therefore be more able, seaworthy and enjoyable. I view this as part and parcel of becoming an expert and expanding the capabilities of your vessel and your seamanship.
Next up, Climate Change.
It may amuse Ian to know that Henry Wood, one of the Government Center architects also owned Bolger's Pointer. Henry is also famous for rescuing Clingstone, the house on the Dumplings just across from Newport, staging bohemian raves in the 70's and mooning anyone and everyone he felt deserved such treatment. He too has crossed the bar, and has left the world a lesser place.
SHC

I think someone so steeped in racing boats and commercial sailboats will find it difficult to appreciate what Bolger achieved.

You are on record for saying that the Sunfish is you benchmark small dinghy and though it pre-dates Bolger's work it mirrors many attributes of his work. Imagine a world where Bolger had not existed would it for the backyard boat builder have been so rich? The people that Bolger pulled into sailing where / are not the usual sailing crowd. I would speculate a large percentage had sailed or belonged to a sailing club before they built their boats. Bolger enabled people to get afloat on something they had built.

He probably had a negligible effect on the sport of sailing but his impact on sailing and boating are unmeasurable.

The thread got confused earlier about that Performance word, my open canoe and simple Streaker dinghy out-perform the International Canoe I once owned in ways that are important to me.

yes good to enliven the New Year, life would be very boring if we all thought the same.

[SHClark]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

tink, what you don't know is that I grew up on a single family island in Massachusetts. Summer or winter, the only way of was I one of our boats. Even a day like today when it would struggle to get above single digits, you took a boat ride to get to school. So my experience isn't limited to speeding around buoys. There was a reason why there was a hammer next to the helm of the lobster boat. Literally thousands of hours in small boats, summer and winter, I know how hard boats can have to work because I have worked them.
I also have been fascinated by sailboats my entire life, and have spent countless hours in and around them getting from point A to point B, and have little patience for not getting that done quickly, safely, and properly. I have been so cold,wet and tired that I would have traded at least one sister for 3 degrees more pointing or half a knot of speed because it would make the difference between being unhappy or starting to be in trouble. So I don't approach this as a dilitant, but from the practical point of view that if it is available, affordable and possible, you ought to capture it because you are going to need it sooner or later.
The quest for efficiency under sail is a rabbit hole I dove into and spent years exploring and learning a thing or two. I report back that it isn't all bull****, and some of it should be seriously considered by all seamen because they are good solutions to common problems.
For those of us who have more than one boat and can choose our weapon for outing, it gets much simpler. I roll my own boats, which no one else wants to buy, so I have lots of options, but also cannot turn off the lifetime of asking, " Hoe do I do to this better?" Whether it is a different way of helming, weight distribution, sail trim, favored tack, current or, "why wouldn't you move the centerboard back 6". How hard would that be?"
The Streaker is a very nice dinghy. Would you say it is more or less desirable than Bolger's Gypsy? If you applied half of the difference between the two boats, would the Gypsy be improved by becoming more Steaker like, or would the Streaker become better by becoming more Gypsy like? Jack Holt is one on my idols, and the man whose work I most compare to Bolger's small boats. Nothing Phil did holds a candle to the impact the Enterprise, and Mirror dinghy had on British sailing. That's before you consider all of the other very cool designs.
None of this diminishes my respect for Phil Bolger and his work. He accomplished many great things, but all that he accomplished was not great. Human Condition 205.
SHC

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

I consider it a privilege to have met and enjoyed a brief conversation with Phil Bolger just months before he died. We sailed his Dovekie design for 12 years and his Shearwater (Dovekie's "Big Sister") for 18 and were never disappointed in our purchases.

[tink]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

tink, what you don't know is that I grew up on a single family island in Massachusetts. Summer or winter, the only way of was I one of our boats. Even a day like today when it would struggle to get above single digits, you took a boat ride to get to school. So my experience isn't limited to speeding around buoys. There was a reason why there was a hammer next to the helm of the lobster boat. Literally thousands of hours in small boats, summer and winter, I know how hard boats can have to work because I have worked them.
I also have been fascinated by sailboats my entire life, and have spent countless hours in and around them getting from point A to point B, and have little patience for not getting that done quickly, safely, and properly. I have been so cold,wet and tired that I would have traded at least one sister for 3 degrees more pointing or half a knot of speed because it would make the difference between being unhappy or starting to be in trouble. So I don't approach this as a dilitant, but from the practical point of view that if it is available, affordable and possible, you ought to capture it because you are going to need it sooner or later.
The quest for efficiency under sail is a rabbit hole I dove into and spent years exploring and learning a thing or two. I report back that it isn't all bull****, and some of it should be seriously considered by all seamen because they are good solutions to common problems.
For those of us who have more than one boat and can choose our weapon for outing, it gets much simpler. I roll my own boats, which no one else wants to buy, so I have lots of options, but also cannot turn off the lifetime of asking, " Hoe do I do to this better?" Whether it is a different way of helming, weight distribution, sail trim, favored tack, current or, "why wouldn't you move the centerboard back 6". How hard would that be?"
The Streaker is a very nice dinghy. Would you say it is more or less desirable than Bolger's Gypsy? If you applied half of the difference between the two boats, would the Gypsy be improved by becoming more Steaker like, or would the Streaker become better by becoming more Gypsy like? Jack Holt is one on my idols, and the man whose work I most compare to Bolger's small boats. Nothing Phil did holds a candle to the impact the Enterprise, and Mirror dinghy had on British sailing. That's before you consider all of the other very cool designs.
None of this diminishes my respect for Phil Bolger and his work. He accomplished many great things, but all that he accomplished was not great. Human Condition 205.
SHC

I was unaware of your your early boating history but feel you are reinforcing the point I made. Bolger appeals to people with blood rather than salt water running through their veins. I myself was 4th generation merchant marine (I used the Americanism) and have seen the sea in all her glory (though from the safety of a big ship) and I wouldn’t take a Bolger boat, or many other small boats, more than a few miles out to sea. People wanting to do that where not I suspect of much interest to Bolger.

Through my club I get involved in introduction to sailing to sailing events and training. When you ask these people why they want to sail there reasons are as simple as ‘it looks fun’, ‘I just fancied it’. The route to that for an inner city ‘land lubber’ is complex and expensive: join a club, do a course, at a cost, buy a boat - usually a race boat because most clubs are all about that. Bolger enabled the average Joe to get afloat without the shackles of the establishment.

Bolgers legacy is simplicity, in the racing world Jack Holt had a massive effect and though they transformed sailing compared to Bolger they are complex boats construction wise. Throughout my professional career and amateur boat designs I have always strived for simplicity.

The world of none competitive small boat sailing must not be forgotten and therefore who would you say is the most important small boat designer in this field?

[rudderless]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Like many, I have read Bolger's books

Even raggedy used copies are quite expensive now. What I have been doing is applying rebates to buy them. Amazon gives juicy rebates if you use their visa credit card, but I hate to use those because they don't seem to expire and will be useable for other regular purchases. A few of his books are on ebay, and once in a great while I get their "ebay bucks" rebates which expire in a month when I may have nothing else conceivable to buy there. Currently they have a copy of his "small rigs" book, although it has a weird cover that is unlike all other copies I have seen.

[tink]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Amazon prices for Bolger appear to fluctuate quite wildly I have seen 100 rigs be £100 one week and £25 a month later. It is worth being like a hospital- full of patience (that probably doesn’t work written down)

Anyway, that is my experience

I have 100 rigs and open minds and both inspiring books- that said you have to be open to unconventional.

[tink]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Amazon prices for Bolger appear to fluctuate quite wildly I have seen 100 rigs be £100 one week and £25 a month later. It is worth being like a hospital- full of patience (that probably doesn’t work written down) Currently between £55 and £250.

Anyway, that is my experience

I have 100 rigs and open minds and both inspiring books- that said you have to be open to unconventional.

[DGentry]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Currently they have a copy of his "small rigs" book, although it has a weird cover that is unlike all other copies I have seen.

There are two versions - 100 and 103, with different covers. Either one is worthy.

Interlibrary loan can get you any book you want, btw.
Dave

[rudderless]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Interlibrary loan can get you any book you want, btw.

Thanks, altho our state library charges $10 just to look for an ILL book (no refund) and then charges can accumulate for mailing and borrowing fees. Of course our state university gives free ILL to members, but not to us taxpayers subsidizing it at any price. Anyway I find Phil's books best read slowly without a return deadline; they appear to be in clear casual english, but the sentences can be packed with unconventional meaning.

So it still can be worth buying the "open minds" book which is sometimes available at a competitive cost. The "100 rigs" book seems more rare and costly which is what brings the "ebay bucks" program to mind. You can enroll for it in the US; in the UK "you may be eligible to earn rewards through Nectar" whatever that is. Phil's other books may be so expensive or unavailable to make ILL the best option.

[tink]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

I have a healthy (ridiculously large and unnecessary - my wife’s view) collection of boating books. Open Minds lives in the upstairs small room and 100 rigs in the downstairs small room and as a consequence are my most read and most enjoyed books.

[sailnstink]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Bolger's books being expensive seems unusual to me. Must be getting old. I bought a bunch of his books 10-15 years ago and as I remember it the books were regularly priced and easy to find.

[Dave Hadfield]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Nope, they have always been expensive.

Worth it, though.

Boats With An Open Mind is a very clever title -- totally expressive of his nautical philosophy.

[TR]

Re: Phil Bolger consensus?

Always is a relative term.....

I bought Small Boats(pub 1973) from International Marine in 1975 for $13.95. I thought that was fair.

Published the next year, The Folding Schooner had a cover price of $13.50.

Different Boats in 1980 was up to $22.25 and 30 Odd Boats two years later (1982) was $27.00. That was getting expensive.