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Thread: Why not more interest in pedal power?

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    And there's Harry Bryan's pedal powered fin boat: http://www.offcenterharbor.com/video...ered-fin-boat/

    Jeff

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Old Town offers a pedal powered kayak as shown at http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/Predator_PDL/ which is only two hundred dollars less than the one at http://www.oldtowncanoe.com/Predator_MK/ with an electric motor.

    Benson

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    An alternative to the Hobie Drive is Harry Bryan's Fishtail Propulsion. He put plans for this drive in Human Power Magazine http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/36-v11n1-1994.pdf There is also an article in AYRS 121 Winter 1994 http://www.ayrs.org/repository/AYRS121.all_A5.pdf about the evolution of the drive. There is also a video here http://www.offcenterharbor.com/video...ered-fin-boat/

    Advantages are it replaces the rudder, so it doesn't take up any real estate in the middle of the boat and you can built/modify it yourself if you are so inclined.

    Alan
    https://sites.google.com/site/helium12sofsailboat/

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by SNAPMAN View Post
    An alternative to the Hobie Drive is Harry Bryan's Fishtail Propulsion. He put plans for this drive in Human Power Magazine http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/36-v11n1-1994.pdf There is also an article in AYRS 121 Winter 1994 http://www.ayrs.org/repository/AYRS121.all_A5.pdf about the evolution of the drive. There is also a video here http://www.offcenterharbor.com/video...ered-fin-boat/

    Advantages are it replaces the rudder, so it doesn't take up any real estate in the middle of the boat and you can built/modify it yourself if you are so inclined.

    Alan
    https://sites.google.com/site/helium12sofsailboat/
    I was looking at this over the weekend it looks that it tries very hard to push the boat sideways in the opposite direction to the fish tail (As you would expect from Newton's 3rd). One design appeared to have two fins to counter this. I think this type will clearly work better on some hull types but not skimming dish types

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    I have a Hobie tandem mirage drive that both my wife and I love. However, being seen on the water in a bright blue root older piece of plastic truly is mortifying. Nonetheless, it has become our defectors dinghy for cruising. (On a 5 week cruise, I never put the RIB in the water!)

    i do do want a Mirage drive, wooden version, preferably that tows well behind the mothership. Challenges are:

    1) Necessary inherent stability
    2) Ergonomics due to needing to have a floodable well for the drive ( high center of gravity)and since prolonged pedaling yields foot circulation problems
    3) Easily driven requires narrow and long which works against the tender functionality

    Finding myself drawn more towards electric such as a Torqueedo as having fewer ( but no less daunting) challenges

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryfeet View Post
    I have a Hobie tandem mirage drive that both my wife and I love. However, being seen on the water in a bright blue root older piece of plastic truly is mortifying. Nonetheless, it has become our defectors dinghy for cruising. (On a 5 week cruise, I never put the RIB in the water!)

    i do do want a Mirage drive, wooden version, preferably that tows well behind the mothership. Challenges are:

    1) Necessary inherent stability
    2) Ergonomics due to needing to have a floodable well for the drive ( high center of gravity)and since prolonged pedaling yields foot circulation problems
    3) Easily driven requires narrow and long which works against the tender functionality

    Finding myself drawn more towards electric such as a Torqueedo as having fewer ( but no less daunting) challenges
    Are you aware of the problems with towing a dink of any type? http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2014/...e-slow-tow.asp
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    I was looking at this over the weekend it looks that it tries very hard to push the boat sideways in the opposite direction to the fish tail (As you would expect from Newton's 3rd). One design appeared to have two fins to counter this. I think this type will clearly work better on some hull types but not skimming dish types
    It would be interesting to compare the Mirage to the Fishtail Fin in/on similar hulls, until then it is only conjecture as to which works well for each individual user and situation. In the video there is indeed some sideways motion of the boat, but how much efficiency this costs is not clear. It might not be a significant amount as it takes little energy to move a small boat (particularly a skimming dish) sideways. In addition optimizing the fishtail fin angle of attack and profile might reduce the loss.

    This would be a great project for some engineering student

    In any case efficiency is not likely to be the main reason one would choose one over the other.

    Alan
    https://sites.google.com/site/helium12sofsailboat/

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    The mirage drive concept is pretty cool. The fact that they fold flat against the bottom is a huge plus. I also like the idea that you are not raising your legs like you would with bicycle like pedals. The 600 dollar cost seems reasonable for a low volume item like this but maybe the Chinese will make a knock off lol. There does seem to be a problem with putting a hole in a boat though.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by SNAPMAN View Post
    It would be interesting to compare the Mirage to the Fishtail Fin in/on similar hulls, until then it is only conjecture as to which works well for each individual user and situation. In the video there is indeed some sideways motion of the boat, but how much efficiency this costs is not clear. It might not be a significant amount as it takes little energy to move a small boat (particularly a skimming dish) sideways. In addition optimizing the fishtail fin angle of attack and profile might reduce the loss.

    This would be a great project for some engineering student

    In any case efficiency is not likely to be the main reason one would choose one over the other.

    Alan
    https://sites.google.com/site/helium12sofsailboat/
    Agree with all of what you say and a certain would be a good student project, maybe joint mechanical and sports engineering.

    ❤❤❤❤❤❤ love your Helium 12 project

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    Are you aware of the problems with towing a dink of any type? http://www.boatus.com/magazine/2014/...e-slow-tow.asp
    Towing has its own special set of considerations for sure. Something I ran into was that when coming in to a public dinghy dock, 12 feet loa was the limit so you kayak wasn't exactly legal. Pedaling an under 12' dinghy just won't be much fun.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    If lithium ion batteries or some other battery tech was cheap would it reduce the interest in pedal power?

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfhnd View Post
    The mirage drive concept is pretty cool. The fact that they fold flat against the bottom is a huge plus. I also like the idea that you are not raising your legs like you would with bicycle like pedals. The 600 dollar cost seems reasonable for a low volume item like this but maybe the Chinese will make a knock off lol. There does seem to be a problem with putting a hole in a boat though.
    A hole in the boat can be be used for a dagger board, electric outboard well and, ah, a relief port.
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    It was IGNORANCE that killed the cat.... Curiosity was framed.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?


  14. #84
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by leaotis View Post
    A hole in the boat can be be used for a dagger board, electric outboard well and, ah, a relief port.
    My Caledonia Yawl had a 10" circular Lexan port for plugging up the motor well for rowing and sailing. Because it was clear, it also functioned as a glass bottom window. It was very cool to see the bottom zooming by when sailing in thin water.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by vantage475t View Post
    I am looking for an extra propulsion method for my small trimaran - I'm converting an ISO dinghy to a trimaran and I've looked at various options.
    Small outboards really noisy but effective.
    I have a Tohatsu 8 hp. One reason I like this motor so much is because at low rpm's it is not whiney like a lot of small outboards. Just because you have 8HP doesn't mean you have to use them all! At low rpm's it would still push much better than electric. It weights 59 lbs, too so very portable. The downside is I don't think they are made any more so you would need to find a used motor.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Are you guys going to discuss gas motors on a pedal power thread?

    Thread drift is fine with me, but that is a little excessive.

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    I'm still curious about the response.


    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boa...23345-136.html
    www.sassdesign.net
    I'm not lost, I'm just uncertain of my position.
    I'm still confused, but on a higher level

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Which response?

    Pedals or motors or oars, etc?

  19. #89
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by 457277 View Post
    I'm still curious about the response.


    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boa...23345-136.html
    do you mean the use of sewer rods because I was equally confused a few weeks ago when I looked on Wards sewer supplies. He talks about 3/16 which would be 5mm so a think this product

    http://www.wardsflex.co.uk/5mm-steelkane-rods/

  20. #90
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    I ask for feedback on my posts about rowing with feet in Vietnam. See previous post 53 above.
    www.sassdesign.net
    I'm not lost, I'm just uncertain of my position.
    I'm still confused, but on a higher level

  21. #91
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by 457277 View Post
    I ask for feedback on my posts about rowing with feet in Vietnam. See previous post 53 above.
    The woman was very good rowing with her feet and legs which is good because most of her attention was focused on her cell phone conversation. The water was very flat so it makes me wonder how well she could row in a three foot chop. I can not try to duplicate her technique of rowing with legs because my knees would not tolerate that action more than a few stokes. There's your feedback. Have a nice day.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by 457277 View Post
    I ask for feedback on my posts about rowing with feet in Vietnam. See previous post 53 above.
    "Here comes another way for pedal power.
    At first glance, it looks to be very convenient and effective.
    Is there anyone here who has more technical data on what is most convenient, and how effective this option is? Could it be developed further?
    Note that the oars settles automatically horizontally to reduce air resistance."

    My response:
    No, there is no data that I know of on this form of foot power.
    However, the most efficient, by far, is conventional pedal power with a low friction drive and an efficient prop.
    Does that answer your question?

  23. #93
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    Tom, how do you think the efficiency of Hobie's Mirage drive stacks up against a low friction sprocket drive and an efficient prop?


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  24. #94
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    how do you think the efficiency of Hobie's Mirage drive stacks up against a low friction sprocket drive and an efficient prop?
    Props have a major efficiency problem relative to Hobie Mirage fin drives... they don't have variable pitch. The legacy Mirage drive fins flex to automatically give finer pitch when accelerating (grunty torque), and then greater pitch when maintaining (overdrive). Furthermore you can fine tune this response with a tension screw on the fin.



    The only time I have heard of a prop drive outracing a mirage drive is when the former is geared so high it is unresponsive in acceleration. Also there is a demonstration of a Mirage drive pulling a gold medalist paddler like a rag doll in a tug of war (even tandem paddlers) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0rvFdLdplA . That one employs old small curved fins that are much less effective than newer larger square tipped or turbo fins.

    Caveat: I don't know how 2017 fins perform, which were radically redesigned to accommodate reverse drive (less flex, maybe larger version to come). A person that does a lot of speed tests claims the factory settings for fin tension should be overridden to max loose for best results, although this fine pitch is counterintuitive and didn't seem to help me. Mirage pedallers on youtube often seem to sabotage their performance, like always letting the fins go horizontal when sailing (keep pedals straight up to form a keel).

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Tom, how do you think the efficiency of Hobie's Mirage drive stacks up against a low friction sprocket drive and an efficient prop?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Good question, but you have exceeded my knowledge level on that one.
    I was surprised when I tried one by how smooth and quick it was.
    Very impressive indeed. I think it would come down to pro's and con's of the use, installation and requirements.

  26. #96
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    Props have a major efficiency problem relative to Hobie Mirage fin drives... they don't have variable pitch. The legacy Mirage drive fins flex to automatically give finer pitch when accelerating (grunty torque), and then greater pitch when maintaining (overdrive). Furthermore you can fine tune this response with a tension screw on the fin.



    The only time I have heard of a prop drive outracing a mirage drive is when the former is geared so high it is unresponsive in acceleration. Also there is a demonstration of a Mirage drive pulling a gold medalist paddler like a rag doll in a tug of war (even tandem paddlers) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0rvFdLdplA . That one employs old small curved fins that are much less effective than newer larger square tipped or turbo fins.

    Caveat: I don't know how 2017 fins perform, which were radically redesigned to accommodate reverse drive (less flex, maybe larger version to come). A person that does a lot of speed tests claims the factory settings for fin tension should be overridden to max loose for best results, although this fine pitch is counterintuitive and didn't seem to help me. Mirage pedallers on youtube often seem to sabotage their performance, like always letting the fins go horizontal when sailing (keep pedals straight up to form a keel).
    So, this is marketing riddled with flaws and bias, combined with flag-waving not double blind, credible testing.
    Buyer beware.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Christie View Post
    So, this is marketing riddled with flaws and bias, combined with flag-waving not double blind, credible testing.
    Buyer beware.
    Nonsense! Those are dated videos with a sense of humor that don't pretend to do as you say. It is just a wake up call that the apparently gimmicky rube goldberg approach of fins has nonobvious virtues that make it a contender against obvious approaches like propellers. There do exist variable pitch props that possibly make a simpler, cheaper solution.

    I am skeptical of Hobie's new expensive reversable drive and am no salesman with only 1 mirage drive among 9 watercraft. But readers here should be aware pedalling, at least as demonstrated by fin drive, can give an earthquake change in the way you view self powered boating and even the water itself. Distances seem smaller and beams can be wider. Of course it's not for white water and some other uses. Go search various forums for prop vs fin drive tests that are more recent and meticulous. They are out there but "double-blind"... geez, give me a break and try a fin drive yourself.
    Last edited by rudderless; 02-05-2017 at 05:33 PM.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    rudderless,
    I have three pedal drives, have tried many and find you rude and nonsensical.
    Reader beware.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    The larger the prop and the slower it turns, the more efficient it is, for low powered applications anyway.
    The Mirage drive is like having a 28" or 73cm fat bladed prop, but each blade only takes half a revolution then reverses it's pitch and direction.
    The advantage of the Mirage drive is it's like having a prop twice the size for the depth it takes.
    I don't think of the Mirage drive as a fin system but as a big prop.
    Last edited by leaotis; 02-05-2017 at 11:12 PM. Reason: readabilty
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  30. #100
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Back in the 80s a manufacturer had a pedal powered proa out there, skinny hull and big 2 ' or more narrow bladed prop sized to run right with human power. Kind of prop that has been used in the fastest human powered water craft, I think 60-80 rpm. Boat was seriously fast, could keep up and beat recreational sliders and hang with singles. But you needed a couple of feet of water to launch and run it. Any body remember it? One of the issues with small diameter prop drives is that you need gearing to deal with the 60-80 rpm that cyclists pull. And there are efficiency losses. So thinking of the Mirage drive as a large diameter prop is kind of useful.
    Ben Fuller
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  31. #101
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    Didn't they get the idea for the Mirage drive from penguins? Penguins may waddle along awkwardly on land but once in the water they become like bubble-trailing cruise missiles.


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  32. #102
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    I read somewhere that MIT and the US Navy came up with the oscillating foil concept as a way to save 10% on fuel. I’ve seen old videos of scale model ships with “Mirage” drives. But the system didn’t scale well. Hobie hired away the grad student who was working on the project and the Mirage drive was the result. I reckon Hobie gained invaluable data from the Navy and MIT’s research.
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    It was IGNORANCE that killed the cat.... Curiosity was framed.

  33. #103
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    I have always been fascinated by the versatility Ron Rantilla's Front Rower design.

    While it probably performs best using both arms and legs, it allows all possible combinations of arms and legs, e.g. arms only, legs only, one arm and one leg etc.
    It does this for both simultaneous as well as alternating strokes.

    Reverse strokes appear to be arms only.
    The demonstrated feathered height during the return stroke looks a little low for lumpy water, but it should be possible to change the design to get extra height.

    Some video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQhbbZC8_eg&t=908s

  34. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Back in the 80s a manufacturer had a pedal powered proa out there, skinny hull and big 2 ' or more narrow bladed prop sized to run right with human power. Kind of prop that has been used in the fastest human powered water craft, I think 60-80 rpm. Boat was seriously fast, could keep up and beat recreational sliders and hang with singles. But you needed a couple of feet of water to launch and run it. Any body remember it? One of the issues with small diameter prop drives is that you need gearing to deal with the 60-80 rpm that cyclists pull. And there are efficiency losses. So thinking of the Mirage drive as a large diameter prop is kind of useful.


    Not the proa you are talking about but shows the potential of a proa. This is a Tri but could easily be a proa which I miss took it for. Has a flexible drive as previously discussed and the prop simply folds up.

    This fellow is pretty productive in this area
    http://www.rickwill.bigpondhosting.com




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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenjamin View Post
    Didn't they get the idea for the Mirage drive from penguins? Penguins may waddle along awkwardly on land but once in the water they become like bubble-trailing cruise missiles.
    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    you have to love biomimicry
    https://youtu.be/yBK5lRp9aeQ

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