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Thread: Why not more interest in pedal power?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Human powered boats have captured my interest for some time.
    One of the most thorough threads I've ever seen (and participated in) can be found on boatdesign.net
    Sorry don't recall the exact title but a search will turn it up.
    It'll be the longest one.
    ALL the info you need/want is there.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quoted from Timmo in #30;

    "Just to add another dimension to the concept of pedalling. For those of us with increasing issues with joint mobility there is noticeable difference between the fixed amplitude rotation of pedals on a crank and the action of foot operated levers. It helps me to be able to vary the amplitude of the stroke to ease knee issues. Most propellor systems are cranked, most fin systems (including Mirage Drives and the Pedal Yuloh) are levers."

    This was quite apparent to me with my 2 previously ruptured knees. I drilled and tapped the cranks on my SeaCycle unit to be about 3/4 the length and that made a pretty big difference, a very noticeable difference in fact.

    Regarding interest in pedaling, folks show a great deal of interest when they see my setup. Some of that is varnish related, but many are fascinated by the pedal option. Not one has said they were inspired to build there own though, I think it looks like too much trouble.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by rudderless View Post
    Don't limit pedal use to a drop in component for the sleekest kayaks, which after all were designed in such austere minimalism to accommodate weakness of your upper limb muscles. Put your pedal drive in a beefy yard-or-more-wide boat like the Original Poster or me - it's a like a nuclear reactor drive that never gets your legs tired (at least the fin drives which unlike propeller drives, auto adjusts torque thru flexing). Now you have the opportunity to get on a wide and long boat that may be primarily sailable rather than trying to turbo charge some specialized micro boat.

    Pedaling does not imply abandoning a paddle! Hobie pedal craft have a double ended paddle mounted at hand for instant docking aid, backup, or even to use while pedaling.



    Why assume ignorance of conventional paddle use?! I have a half century of kayaking and white water canoeing with the legacy kind of paddling, and know a good thing when part-time switching to pedaling. I certainly feel the drag of even a canted paddle aloft in a 35 knot headwind vs. slipping thru in the recumbent arms-down pedaling posture. For riding surf I still use 5 kayak paddles (mostly a yummy carbon fiber one) and 2 SUP paddles, so haven't forgotten their specialty uses. The Hobie fin system seems inherently bad in surf due to the forward fin area serving as a pivot point to your stern whipping around, as a forum moderator confirmed.

    From the Hobie forum, I would say their typical pedal user may be in their autumn years to handle those premium prices, and may have a load of paddle experience on skinny boats when they were half their current weight. By the way folks here may be able to buy their lightly used legacy pedal mirage drives at cut rate because in a couple months they can upgrade to a new reversible model. Get the 2015-6 model year drives, or even earlier if upgraded with a DIY bearing kit. Forum posters seem to agree that you must also upgrade to the largest fin (and rudder) sizes to get full pedal or sailing performance. I don't know about the prop pedal drives, but hope they can offer cheaper go power.
    funny how this wasn't quoted

    I'm not using anyone's name by the way... so no need to feel defensive.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    .".
    Regarding interest in pedaling, folks show a great deal of interest when they see my setup. Some of that is varnish related, but many are fascinated by the pedal option. Not one has said they were inspired to build there own though, I think it looks like too much trouble.
    So offer plans or a kit. I frequently find that interested people need a framework to get them started. They can't see the first stages, so bulk at the idea.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    funny how this wasn't quoted

    I'm not using anyone's name by the way... so no need to feel defensive.
    He he. While I was slowly composing that post, Timmo slipped in a post ahead of me that covered my same points, but in an understated yet more knowledgeable way... better quote fodder. I had to read his comparison of cycle crank vs lever pedal several times to see which side his genteel text was supporting. I now see he gave a thumbs up for lever drives over confining cycle drives. Many Hobie folks talk about fluttering the mirage fins just inches from the hull for shallow water clearance, but I find that mode awkward for the same reason Timmo dislikes the narrow leg extension range of a cycle crank.
    Last edited by rudderless; 01-28-2017 at 04:37 PM.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    I have always loved rowing & i have canoed as well. An old injury & subsequent severe arthritis now means rowing any distance at all is out of the question. If its the only way to get afloat in a human powered boat again im mighty interested!

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    I've built 3 Mirage drive boats, each designed specifically for the thrust provided by two average pedalers. Once we got the recumbent seats worked out (Thanks Tim) they were comfortable cruisers. My wife and I average 4kts.

    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    It was IGNORANCE that killed the cat.... Curiosity was framed.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Sorry I got carried away, pedal power is cool.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    can these creations pedal sideways or in reverse? I actually think a mirage drive on a solo trip on the maine island trail would be fun for me....IF i were still into paddle sports. I would however NOT leave a paddle at home.
    Denise, Bristol PA, Oday30, Anchor Yacht Club, On tidal Delaware River. my current project; http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...0-Ducker-Resto

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    Why aren't bicycles really popular?
    Been around for a long time.
    2 small shops locally have folded due to lack of business.

    The Walmart bikes get used for about 3 weeks, sit for 2 years, then they are in the dump.
    Bicycles ARE really popular, just not in Texas. And having spent a couple of days in Houston sweating my arse off in insane heat and humidity, I'm not surprised. You'd have to be desperate or dedicated to get out on a bike in that!
    The HPVA (human powered vehicle association) forum used to be really active, with some very knowledgeable people contributing on propeller and drivetrain design and test. That was about ten years ago. Last time I looked though, all the old stuff seemed to have gone, lots of dead links and quiet forums. The really efficient pedal props look more like something off a model aircraft that a 'normal' boat, and have to be quite carefully matched for boat speed, rpm and the human providing the power.

    Pete
    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeniseO30 View Post
    can these creations pedal sideways or in reverse? I actually think a mirage drive on a solo trip on the maine island trail would be fun for me....IF i were still into paddle sports. I would however NOT leave a paddle at home.
    The Mirage drive can be lifted from it's well, turned 180 and put back in for reverse. I always take a small paddle to use for braking and maneuvering in tight spots.
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    It was IGNORANCE that killed the cat.... Curiosity was framed.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Slightly off the thread but you have to love it

    https://youtu.be/bFhnt3JUuL8

    not sure why he didn't go the whole hog.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by leaotis View Post
    The Mirage drive can be lifted from it's well, turned 180 and put back in for reverse. I always take a small paddle to use for braking and maneuvering in tight spots.
    The latest mirage drive can drive in both forward and reverse without being lifted from it's well.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    The chap at Dad's Boats in the UK makes his own beautifull props for his pedal drives...when he lammed up the blank you can even see he figured out the thicknesses to give himself hardwood tips.

    That`s Art Edward !

  15. #50
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    Default

    Hum
    Yuloh to classic dimensions on a 12' x 30" canoe
    Length Yuloh 90% LOA, 60% aft of fulcrum
    (http://www.junkrigassociation.org/Re...efficiency.pdf)

    Looks a tad long, but a love the simplicity. May look at different lengths. When sailing I currently paddle steer and a Yuloh would be easier than a full rudder and give me a bit of auxiliary power and a LOT (free) cheaper than a Hobie unit.




    May layout the Harry Bryan design - post 8

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...oil-propulsion

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    instead of buying ready-made gear box or Mirage drive you could always build your own:




    prop too:



    It seemed very efficient but the the sound was the best.
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    It was IGNORANCE that killed the cat.... Curiosity was framed.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Hum
    Yuloh to classic dimensions on a 12' x 30" canoe
    Length Yuloh 90% LOA, 60% aft of fulcrum
    (http://www.junkrigassociation.org/Re...efficiency.pdf)

    Looks a tad long, but a love the simplicity. May look at different lengths. When sailing I currently paddle steer and a Yuloh would be easier than a full rudder and give me a bit of auxiliary power and a LOT (free) cheaper than a Hobie unit.




    May layout the Harry Bryan design - post 8

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...oil-propulsion
    I think an issue with a traditional Yuloh in sailing applications is that the blade is perpendicular to the water flow as it crosses the centreline of the boat which will probably cap speed potential rather. A better bet may be the AD-Scull where the blade is parallel to the flow at the centreline and can function either as propulsion or a rudder.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Here comes another way for pedal power.
    At first glance, it looks to be very convenient and effective.
    Is there anyone here who has more technical data on what is most convenient, and how effective this option is? Could it be developed further?
    Note that the oars settles automatically horizontally to reduce air resistance.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyMMgOTc4wQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvU2f-t612o


    JS
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    I'm not lost, I'm just uncertain of my position.
    I'm still confused, but on a higher level

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    I think an issue with a traditional Yuloh in sailing applications is that the blade is perpendicular to the water flow as it crosses the centreline of the boat which will probably cap speed potential rather. A better bet may be the AD-Scull where the blade is parallel to the flow at the centreline and can function either as propulsion or a rudder.
    Thanks Clarkey, most of the AD-Scull stuff is in Japanese but some pictures. I think I will make a few models to get my head around the different options.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    "Pedal Powered Boats" is the name of the thread I was trying to remember the name of on boatdesign.net
    It would be a slog to read through to find the info you want, but I can assure you, it's ALL there.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    I think an issue with a traditional Yuloh in sailing applications is that the blade is perpendicular to the water flow as it crosses the centreline of the boat which will probably cap speed potential rather. A better bet may be the AD-Scull where the blade is parallel to the flow at the centreline and can function either as propulsion or a rudder.
    On my good little skiff I haven't used a rudder for years. I use a sculling oar which is shaped to work like a yuloh, a falling leaf stroke. To make it work steering you have to be able to vary the pitch and arc of the stroke. Doesn't seem to affect the speed. I'm not sure how this works on the interesting foot powered one, presumably by varying the pressing force or the length of the stroke. Fishtail sculling such as practice in whaleboats, surfboats ( in western cultures) is more effective steering but less effective in propulsion at least with the oars I have tried.
    Ben Fuller
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  22. #57
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    To the original question: I bicycle a lot but my human powered boat has oars, not pedals. Rowing uses more and different muscles, it's a way to get in some upper body work. Pedaling might be more efficient by using the same leg muscles as cycling, but I need the change. Neither are good weight bearing exercise, tho...

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    I built and still use my pedal powered boat but have you guys seen the Frontrower? It's a well built drop in rig that is self feathering and uses leg power as well as arm power. You can take your hands off the oars and keep going under leg power alone.


  24. #59
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    I bicycle a lot but my human powered boat has oars, not pedals. Rowing uses more and different muscles, it's a way to get in some upper body work. Pedaling might be more efficient by using the same leg muscles as cycling, but I need the change. Neither are good weight bearing exercise, tho...
    The workout pattern can differ by tech details. Just as rowing with a sliding seat vs fixed will add in lower muscles and load up your cardio more. I remember getting so exhausted in a slider scull without seeming to go far... I wonder if there is an inefficient loss from all those speed up and slow downs every couple seconds. Your peak bow wave probably has a nonlinear cost vs the steady medium speed of pedaling.

    Pedaling a boat is different from a bike in a couple ways. A lever action stroke can give a wider range of leg extension than the comparatively confining circular pedaling. You can stroke long or short and it feels good. The resistance can be varied with a pedal fin. Besides varying the fin size (bigger is almost always better) you can adjust the pitch of the fin (at least on Hobie legacy drive; new reversable one doesn't yet offer larger fins and overall may be a doubtful tradeoff). One guy wired up both fin drives together when pedaling his tandem boat solo and he found it TOO much a weight bearing experience.

    Lastly a pedal boat is normally recumbent vs your weight being the counterforce while cycling upright. So your upper body may exercise exerting a left then right counterforce to your long leg strokes. I normally pedal with a wobbly seat so my arms and especially hands may get tired before my legs do. I can get hand cramps rather than leg cramps after a long run, so am trying to lash down my seat enough to not require a deathgrip (partly for roll control in waves).

    But I hate to see boating reduced to just banality of exercise. I remember my finest moment when pedaling a harbor busy with sailboat joyriders and outrigger canoe exercise hounds. An isolated dark cloud popped up and just pulverized us with bullet type downpour and sent the boaters scrambling in retreat. I was dressed like an egyptian mummy for sun protection rather than exercise, so remained perfectly comfy. The still fierce sun slanted under the cloud and lit up the rain splash droplets into a carpet of rainbows as I merrily tooled around a now empty harbor. I wish I took a picture, because the bow was not an arc but like a giant field of flowers (what were the physics?).
    Last edited by rudderless; 01-30-2017 at 12:51 AM.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    That forward rowing thing is pretty cool, but I'd still opt for regular oars and turn my head to see where I'm going. I row a single and I can't imagine any petal powered prop boat keeping up with me, so I think oars, with the fulcrum on the gunnels is the best mechanical advantage to move the boat using leg muscles.. Also, I tried using an electric motor on a canoe, and it just scraped bottom too much fishing around oyster beds, spooking good spots. Quieter to use a paddle. But I like anything that floats so pedal away!

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Seams to be a bit of a fitness interest to this thread. From what I have been reading recently
    muscle creates a higher metabolism
    with age men loose muscle density - so put on weight
    if you just do one excercise, say cycling, the muscles you don't use will diminish and you end up gaining weight
    over fifty you should do a variety of different exercises and use as many different muscles as you can

    so in conclusion you need more boats,
    Last edited by tink; 01-30-2017 at 06:02 AM.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Forward oars: How limited are these in waves, even windchop? You can deal with some in the conventional position because of direct grasp of the handles, but forward facers have indirect grasp. Do the oars skip over waves or grab them? The videos show calm conditions, but eventually you may tire of limiting boating to morning calms or low risk afternoons.

    Conventional rowing: Just try turning your neck when you get old and stiff! I have always hated the reverse position, whether on a scull or a train. It is normal to use distant views to pick a place to focus on when getting closer. You can't do that in reverse, but are a passive observer just missing everything.

    Wobbly fishtail or yuloh:
    You can take inefficient wobble out by having 2 tails or yulohs stroking in opposite directions, like counter rotating props on the same hub do. I realize the wobble gives latitude for turning, but look at real fish tails. Forward body of the fish turns in a way to counter the yaw of the tail... you could even emulate this with a trimtab flap at the front (if not by brute force of a skeg).

    Pedal prop vs fin: I could be sold on a pedal prop if it could handle higher waves, which I suspect it can (with the prop possibly moved aft). The Hobie forum seems to support that fin technology poops out in over 3 ft whitecaps (higher for trimarans or boat wakes). Your stern skids around the axis of your fins. My closest harbor is normally hemmed in by 3+ foot breaking waves bottlenecking the boat channel, so I would love to smash thru these without skidding in the way of powerboats. My paddle boats can handle waves, but their inefficiency isn't worth it unless the waves are 8+ foot funrides.
    Last edited by rudderless; 01-30-2017 at 05:11 AM.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    There's also the various combinations of human power to consider. My 20' Caledonia Yawl (yeah, I know, it was supposed to be 19'6") used to move nicely with a rower forward with somebody else paddling at the stern with a five foot ash paddle while sitting on the mizzen step.



    And I'm still curious to see how well two people can move Welsford's new Long Steps design (18' 6") with a rowing station forward for a crew member and a Mirage drive aft for the helmsman. That way both can be contributing to the boat's forward progress and at least one of them can see where they're headed at all times.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Rowing an erg in a gym is banal. I do row partly for the exercise, since I spend all my working hours planted on my backside in front of a screen, but mainly to be outside on the water. With a couple of wooden levers you can mix up fixed seat, slide seat, and forward standing rowing (tried to yuloh an ordinary oar with a socket on the transom, but someone needs to show me how to make that work ). I would include pedaling as another option if it was easy, but adding a mirage or homemade prop pedal drive is a big change to the boat, taking up interior space.
    For conventional rowing with an old neck (like mine) - use a mirror! Really, makes all the difference.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    I am looking for an extra propulsion method for my small trimaran - I'm converting an ISO dinghy to a trimaran and I've looked at various options.
    Small outboards really noisy but effective.
    Electric nice and quite but limited range and heavy unless very expensive batteries used
    Various pedal options but not sure how I can mount them and make them really usable. Quite complex to make I think and buying would be mad - it seems the drive unit will cost as much as the entire boat, sails and trailer. Also assuming I can only sustain a couple of hundred watts pedalling that is about 1/4 horsepower?

    I've been reading this and other threads on boatdesign.net and I jsut saw this on youtube about Ikuo Tateo:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E_SX9gPJbM
    apart from lots of whooping from the half wit filiming it - and he calls it a rudder - but this is amazing. Did Newport to Hawaii in 48 days.
    I did a search on him and apparently he's just quite a nutter - the first Japanese to sail solo non-stop around the world. In a 20 footer.

    Something I can sling in the boat and pop on as required would be good so I am going to investigate this further.

    I'm also trying to see if I can fit some sort of sculling device on the main hull and somehow get the sculls to fit under the tramps so they can be stored out of the way when not needed.

    A yuloh type affair like this if well made has very little to go wrong and would weigh next to nothing. Make it collapsible and job done?

    What else ahve people put on their dinghies?

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  32. #67
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    Quote Originally Posted by rgthom View Post
    forward standing rowing






  33. #68
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    On a Walkabout:



    aaand, an old thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ng-a-Walkabout

    Sorry for thread drift...

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?

    There are several pedal-powered cats on the market, at $2k-4k, basically floating bicycles.



    The pedal designs on the thread so far would seem well-suited for sheltered water and for day excursions (fishing) or a regular commute, to get from home across a bay to a transit connection, and back. In open water, with any swell, you'd get soaked in short order.

    Having paddled and rowed whitewater for thirty-some years, I would rule out a pedal craft for a few reasons—

    In fast water (class II and above) most of the maneuvers involve face-forward paddling or rowing against the current (i.e. upstream), in order to slow the boat and ferry across, to miss rocks or aim for a particular line. In rocky reaches, one might do a fast change from upstream ferrying to downstream strokes, and back, several times in quick succession, while also using the paddle or oars as a rudder.

    Having a high center of gravity (as above) would increase the risk of fetching up against a rock or going sideways in a wave train and tipping over. A pedal boat with a low center of gravity would lessen the risk.

    In rocky rapids, any stuff (flippers, prop, rudder) below the waterline is exposed to severe damage. One bad hit on a rock would destroy that beautiful laminated prop and rudder. That's the reason inflatables and kayaks of semi-flexible plastic are so popular: they can bounce off rocks or be dragged over them by the current with no real damage, besides scratches.
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    Default Re: Why not more interest in pedal power?


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