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Thread: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

  1. #176
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    Actually if I were building a small boat for efficient offshore single handing, I might slightly modify a LFH Rozinante...deck over most of the cockpit and self bailing well by the helm.
    What about a strip planked Carol or Frances from Chuck Paine instead???





    Frances




    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  2. #177
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Carol and Frances are delightful boats, and totally good. I still think my ideal small ocean sailor...single hander might be a slightly modified Rozinante.

  3. #178
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    A Tasman crossing is a whole new kettle of fish. There are frequently big patches of very light wind and, of course, patches of very rough conditions. Small, fat boats are slow. That simply means that crossing the Tasman, you're out there for longer in those light patches and are more likely to get hammered by the other. I'd go for a sleeker boat with real seaworthiness if I was contemplating crossing the Tasman in it. Slack bilges - something that'll go with the flow but reasonably quick.

    Rick
    Rick, do you like any of the proposals thus far ?
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  4. #179
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Yes, I do. I don't really know which would be more seaworthy really though. I've just thrown in a little bit of food for thought. I do think it's tricky - the ideal small boat for coastal exploring is not going to be ideal for a Tasman crossing, and vice versa. I guess I'd head towards the faster and more seaworthy of your proposals. For me it would have a transom for speed, buoyancy and space, and for fitting a vane. But I haven't sailed on any of the boats mentioned or even boats like them so it'd be guesswork on my part to suggest which might fit the bill. Nevertheless, I'll have a go ....

    Rick

  5. #180
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Good, I value your opinion Rick.
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  6. #181
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I will grant a transom can add bouyancy and space and make hanging a gear easier.....but a well designed boat can get away with a simple servo tab on the back of the rudder and needs a minimal vane. It might be that a transom stern, in some conditions may be faster, but overloaded with transom drag, can be slower. Yonnes stern is nicely tucked up that it would not suffer as badly as a fat a*sed design. Annie could be given enough sail area to weight as a lighter boat to keep her moving in light airs, but she will always have the greater displacement to be able to "push on" in a bit more (relative) comfort than could be done in a lighter flatter shaped (faster) boat. Unless you are refering to planing boats, boats of the same waterline are going to be roughly the same speed, so i would not be looking at a transom as a speed boost. Pitch motion might be the one thing against Annie, but hard to say without experience, the one Colin Archer replica i have spent time on was liable to hobby-horse quite a bit, but it was slow and steady, a transom though would have a lot more of a dampening effect. I would say Yonne and Annie are of equal seaworthyness, and i define that by can the boat look after itself while i am strapped in a bunk below.
    Both have the displacement to be able to carry a modern lightweight 1gm 10 or similar and a 50 litre fuel tank; these days i would be hitting the starter button if i needed to maintain way on, and that choice based on experience of being becalmed for 3 days in a rolling Atlantic by the Azores High, in a lightweight, fast, engineless transom sterned cruiser just under 26ft.
    Certainly a dilemma Mr Sibley!

  7. #182
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    This is a very interesting thread. Let me know when you are going to sail to Dunedin, Peter!
    Ian

  8. #183
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    There's less convergence and, hence, less drag, with a properly designed transom. But yes, overload the bum of any boat and it'll slow down! But this level of design performance is really beyond me - I freely admit that.

    I'd go with Little Dipper. I'd probably stretch it a bit to improve performance and it would help slightly with planking. I'd make various changes to the design, as discussed by others above, but I think she's a really practical design that you could build and I think she would be a pretty comfortable small boat. I wouldn't dream of using three headsails at once on any boat but having the capacity to rig either a jib/genoa alone, or staysail with yankee, makes perfect sense to me. Put the yankee on a furler so you can tack it with the staysail rigged, without leaving the cockpit. I don't have a furler on Masina but I would very much like to be able to furl the yankee.

    Rick

  9. #184
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Definitely Ian, I haven't been to Dunedin since I was 5 !!
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  10. #185
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Cheers, Peter. I'll look forward to it!
    “Old Joke: ‘A bench fitter works to the nearest thousandth of an inch. A loco fitter (steam) works to the nearest inch. A shipwright works to the nearest ship’.”
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    “...old maxim, 'A fair line supersedes any given measurement'.”
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  11. #186
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    There's less convergence and, hence, less drag, with a properly designed transom. But yes, overload the bum of any boat and it'll slow down! But this level of design performance is really beyond me - I freely admit that.

    I'd go with Little Dipper. I'd probably stretch it a bit to improve performance and it would help slightly with planking. I'd make various changes to the design, as discussed by others above, but I think she's a really practical design that you could build and I think she would be a pretty comfortable small boat. I wouldn't dream of using three headsails at once on any boat but having the capacity to rig either a jib/genoa alone, or staysail with yankee, makes perfect sense to me. Put the yankee on a furler so you can tack it with the staysail rigged, without leaving the cockpit. I don't have a furler on Masina but I would very much like to be able to furl the yankee.

    Rick
    I am surprised Rick, Little Dipper is a VERY old fashioned design! I wouldn't expect her to be fast, comfortable certainly , but not fast .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  12. #187
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    From reading, not from experience, I think the third headsail is sometimes called the jib topsail, and would only be used when the main topsail is also being used, in very light airs.

  13. #188
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Teal draws 5 foot if the drawings are expanded to 24 foot. It wouldn't be impossible to redraw the lines to get the draft down to 4' 6'' or even a few inches less. Headroom would suffer by 3'' but still be satisfactory for someone my size.

    I like Teal.
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  14. #189
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    This is turning into a pr0n thread, for me. Giminy, there are some pretty boats here, in just the size range and style that gets me hot and bothered.

    Larger than your ideal, Peter, I know, but who is this, Mr. Pearson, and is she available for a date?

    I took a look at your home waters on Google Earth, Peter, as you suggested, and I'm skeptical you'll find a design suitable both for Moreton Bay (to my eye, fairly Riddle-of-the-Sands-esque) and for an ocean passage. That doesn't mean I'll bet against you, but I have no idea how you'll manage it.

    Growing up in Southwest Harbor, ME, Paine's Frances was a regular sight there among the other Morris boats. Not my style generally, but undoubtedly an awfully nice boat of her type. She sure moved well, too. Annie, however, is just too pudgy for me; most of Fenwick Williams's designs are.

    Alex

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post



    I took a look at your home waters on Google Earth, Peter, as you suggested, and I'm skeptical you'll find a design suitable both for Moreton Bay (to my eye, fairly Riddle-of-the-Sands-esque) and for an ocean passage. That doesn't mean I'll bet against you, but I have no idea how you'll manag
    he'll come to his senses and build a cat or tri.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  16. #191
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    he'll come to his senses and build a cat or tri.
    Only if he goes off his meds!

    Alex

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Pitsligo,

    Ed burnett/ Irens 38ft. Homage to Albert Strange's work. Stripped yellow cedar just like a 15ft canoe...laminated ring frames.

    http://www.sandemanyachtcompany.co.u...acht-for-sale/

  18. #193
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    You might consider something like Bill Garden's "Saanich Beagle"....I do not have a picture handy but it is a really roomy small boat with standing head-room, with a modest draft, moderately efficient underbody, and high freeboard. It is distinctive. She lives near me at French Creek. Perhaps Tad Roberts has more....

  19. #194
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I am surprised Rick, Little Dipper is a VERY old fashioned design! I wouldn't expect her to be fast, comfortable certainly , but not fast .
    As I said, I'm guessing but I don't think any of the designs here would be fast. Little Dipper looks a little narrower than the others, to me, and I'd stretch her a bit. A stiffer design might have the edge re speed but I wouldn't like it in a very lumpy sea. I like Teal too but that stern buoyancy issue needs to be investigated properly. One of the really nice features of the Folkboat is the way she rises so beautifully on following seas. You want that.

    If you want fast etc., really, build a Twister!

    Rick

  20. #195
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Peter, Did you ever look at George's 4 tonner (Whisstock)? He's offering up free plans on his website - at least worth a look.



    22'-5" length on deck.
    3'-6" draft
    Headroom is 4'-9". Not sure if that will work for you.

    Looks like you can add a staysail and make her a cutter rig. George would certainly know.






    Enjoying this thread. It's always fun to daydream. So many great boats.

    Travis.
    Last edited by Zuri; 02-21-2017 at 03:57 PM.

  21. #196
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I like Teal too but that stern buoyancy issue needs to be investigated properly.
    I don't want to answer entirely in Peter's voice, but he has kindly been keeping me in the loop with some of his correspondance about Teal, since I'm a fan of the boat. (More accurately, while I like the boat a great deal, I'm enchanted by her voyages.) In emails from both the current and the previous owners of Teal, neither report any trouble with her squatting when moving fast, or in heavy weather (which they both attest to having her out in), nor could they offer any explanation for that original account of the problem when it was brought to their attention.

    I don't want to brush it aside, since if she does squat and risk getting pooped that's unquestionably a hazard. However, since no one has reproduced the behavior, I'm not sure how much weight to give the original account, or even how to explain it. Had they ballasted her oddly? Was there too much water in her bilge, introducing some strange instability? Was it some peculiar and very specific combination of wind and sea conditions? That she has survived and thrived for over a century (in some unforgiving waters) would argue it isn't a fatal flaw, or even one that's such a concern that the vessel needed modification to correct it.

    Every boat has her quirks. If Teal's quirk only shows up once each century, in weather one generally avoids in the first place, I'd argue it wasn't necessarily a quirk that condemned the design.

    Just my two cents.

    Alex

  22. #197
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I sort of agree with Rick. I would in my dreams pick a small (<30-ish feet) easily driven boat. Standing headroom while nice would not be the most important factor. It is difficult to get in smaller boats, and in my experience does not make a huge difference in a small boat at sea. The motion can be vigorous enough at times whatever boat you have, that sitting with everything in reach may be better and safer. I know too many people who have been injured when tossed across the cabin. It can happen in a smaller boat to as Roger Taylor was on Ming Ming, but there is a difference between being tossed 2 or 3 feet or 10 feet.
    my criteria...
    1 ) good watertight envelope and some all weather ventilation
    2 ) Stability - relatively stiff at smaller angles, (Want to spend most of the time at moderate angles of heal) and a good range of stability. Also any hard chance work will need ability to carry on in a blow
    3 ) Easily handled rig, properly set up for reefing. I like a divided rig...ketch/yawl or whatever, but a sloop/cutter could work. Remember that it will be lively when reefing, how do you stay safe?
    4 ) Self steering - Either wind vane or sheet to tiller, I have more experience with sheet to tiller, I have always a slight suspicion the vane is more vulnerable.
    5 ) Gale and storm tactics. I am a fan of heaving to, and have only run off when it was my chosen course and the seas were not too high/breaking.
    6 ) Accommodation.....Good safe place to sit...on deck and below. Sleeping platform which will serve when things are nasty. I read somewhere that the modern offshore racers use bean bags for sleeping....seems like it might work.....The old pipe berth works pretty well, I have used that offshore. I have also used a combined berth in the main cabin as a double. But at sea we slept athwart-ships, feet to leeward. That was not bad either. I personally don't really like a bunk with a lee cloth, difficult to get into and out of. Lots of hand holds, and few hard or sharp edges.
    On Whimbrel I have slept under way a couple of times....on the floor between the berths 6.5' * 2' fwd and 2.5" aft. Well held in place, enough room to roll and turn, easy to get out of and best of all just about exactly on the rolling centre, meaning there is almost no accelerations in the berth, just a fairly gentle rolling.
    Just my thoughts....
    I also read somewhere that a quicker motion (stiffer) may be easier for the body to adapt to. The Hiscocks talked of rolling for days through 30 degrees. I will say that Whimbrel is the first really STIFF boat I have sailed on in this context (lots of form stability and also ballast stability) and in the near coastal sailing I have done including gale force winds and 2-3m seas the motion is surprisingly benign, more so than some keel boats I have sailed.
    Last edited by gilberj; 02-21-2017 at 04:32 PM.

  23. #198
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Yes, sleeping on the floor when underway is a good idea. That's why I like the bean bag idea used by the Vendee Globe sailors.

    I agree re Teal - there's no way I could judge from the design whether she'd be easily pooped or not. I just think that, since it's been mentioned, it should be investigated. It looks like the investigation's already well advanced. She looks a nice design to me.

    Don't take too much notice of my opinion re designs Peter. I know the coast and sea fairly well but how each design would really perform out there, I'm not sure at all. I love sailing the Folkboat as it's so easy and simple but it's no liveaboard and I wouldn't sail it to NZ. If I were you, I'd build something like a Twister - but I'm not! Be careful that you don't compromise too much and build something that's not great at either intended role. On the other hand, almost everyone I talk to who's cruising around, seems pretty happy with their boat, even though some of them look pretty hopeless!

    Rick

    Rick

  24. #199

    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Peter S, there is a beautiful little 23ft cutter designed by Roger Long who used to be a regular poster on this forum. He is still on this planet and has his own blog now and is very easy to converse with. I would suggest you just google "23ft cutter design by Roger Long" one vessel has been built although of that other material (snot) she is a very sweet looker.
    I would put up pictures but am too dumb for that.

    ray

  25. #200
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    23ft cutter design by Roger Long....nice....
    http://www.cruisingonstrider.us/23Cutter.htm

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Unless you are refering to planing boats, boats of the same waterline are going to be roughly the same speed
    ?????? There's often over 10% difference in speed between boats of the same LWL, which can be pretty significant in places like the Australian East Coast, where you are often fighting an almost eternal current and have a very limited choice of ports.

  27. #202
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    23ft cutter design by Roger Long....nice....
    http://www.cruisingonstrider.us/23Cutter.htm

    Roger has lots of good stuff...
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  28. #203
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    You might consider something like Bill Garden's "Saanich Beagle"....I do not have a picture handy but it is a really roomy small boat with standing head-room, with a modest draft, moderately efficient underbody, and high freeboard. It is distinctive. She lives near me at French Creek. Perhaps Tad Roberts has more....
    Maurice Grifith's Eventide bilge keeler, or a round bottom version of some such. . .

    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  29. #204
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    As I said, I'm guessing but I don't think any of the designs here would be fast. Little Dipper looks a little narrower than the others, to me, and I'd stretch her a bit. A stiffer design might have the edge re speed but I wouldn't like it in a very lumpy sea. I like Teal too but that stern buoyancy issue needs to be investigated properly. One of the really nice features of the Folkboat is the way she rises so beautifully on following seas. You want that.

    If you want fast etc., really, build a Twister!

    Rick
    I emailed Teal's current owner and he said it really wasn't a problem,

    ''I found her a fantastically seaworthy boat for one so small - there can't be many 21' boats that would be so comfortable in the conditions we met in the North Sea, and she sailed extremely well to windward. Others have mentioned her tendency to sit low at the stern when driven very hard - I never found this a significant problem, although a bit more buoyancy at the stern might not have gone amiss when we did meet steep seas from behind.


    Personally I wouldn't change her lines at all - I fell in love with her just as she was, and I'm sure slightly scaled up would make an exceptional boat''.
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  30. #205
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Maurice Grifith's Eventide bilge keeler, or a round bottom version of some such. . .

    I quite like that, actually.

    Peace,
    Robert

  31. #206
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuri View Post
    Peter, Did you ever look at George's 4 tonner (Whisstock)? He's offering up free plans on his website - at least worth a look.



    22'-5" length on deck.
    3'-6" draft
    Headroom is 4'-9". Not sure if that will work for you.

    Looks like you can add a staysail and make her a cutter rig. George would certainly know.






    Enjoying this thread. It's always fun to daydream. So many great boats.

    Travis.
    Thank you Zuri, a lovely boat but if I go to the trouble of building I'd really like 5'9''+ headroom and the 4 tonner only gives 4'8''. If I were happy with that I'd likely build Eric Jnr.
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  32. #207
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    ?????? There's often over 10% difference in speed between boats of the same LWL, which can be pretty significant in places like the Australian East Coast, where you are often fighting an almost eternal current and have a very limited choice of ports.
    the difference (with displacement speeds) is how easily the boat reaches the speed. one of those full bodied boats with perhaps a small rig...say the ubiquitous Tahiti Ketch will take a fairly boisterous wind....reaching .....to gain hull speed, while a more slender hull and larger rig and roughly the same waterline will reach the waterline hull speed much more easily and therefore maintain a much higher average speed.
    I used to race a Tartan 10. In our fleet there was several of these boats, but one had much better (more expensive, radially cut, Kevlar) sails than the rest. we were pretty competitive with the others, but the one with expensive sails nearly always took type line honours.
    This is why I suggested earlier a slightly modified Rozinante, because she will perform better on average than most other boats with a 24 foot waterline. A current moving relentlessly along the coast is a really good reason for thinking about performance, unless you move well offshore.
    FWIW.....My Uncle ( Harry Gilbert in Kelasa ) made that passage between Queensland and Tasmania a number of times. I think he mostly worked offshore. Kelasa was a 36 foot Colin Archer type, of his own design, and could not be expected to be a great performer. Sort of vaguely hoping one of you might have encountered Harry and Kelasa...

  33. #208
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Maurice Grifith's Eventide bilge keeler....I think his boats are really really sensible, I just do not really like them very much.....if I am scratching a fantasy I might as well wallow in my fantasy.....
    How about LFH's Dulcinea.....30'8" older larger form of double-ender ketch like Rozinante but fit her with a larger working rig...perhaps 450 sq-ft....looks like standing headroom...I've never measured.

    I still like the uniqueness of Gardens Saanish Beagle...not over the top pretty but not badly ugly .....with standing headroom.
    Last edited by gilberj; 02-21-2017 at 09:16 PM.

  34. #209
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    ?????? There's often over 10% difference in speed between boats of the same LWL, which can be pretty significant in places like the Australian East Coast, where you are often fighting an almost eternal current and have a very limited choice of ports.
    And how much of that 10% is down to a difference in sail area or displacement over hull shape? 10% is a huge margin for those with a racing brain, for a cruiser....not so much....one year old used sails and slack rigging could possibly lose the same amount. What do currents and a lack of ports have to do with a boats overall speed or is it vital to get to the pub before it shuts?

  35. #210
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Like that Roger Long pilot cutter, that has a similar profile to that Fleury Michon (sp) that you like, broad transom, but not unatractive.......

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