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Thread: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

  1. #36
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I think in this sort of size you will find the "down below" a problem when heeled over. No room to keep your feet under your body...no room for the upper body. This is interestingly less of a problem with sitting head-room.
    She will be wet in a seaway. Your top-sides and top of the bilge are nearly straight and vertical, when you heel over as waves break slightly on the side, the wind will lift some of the water up over, and into your lap.
    What happens when you have no wind and a large left over sea...I'd guess she will roll deeply and tirelessly.
    I'd want a little more form stability.

    After all the criticism, I am charmed by this design and Atkins Joan, which I have sailed on once briefly. In normal sailing they do not tend to roll and jump as much as some others. In a blow I think Joan was slower than her waterline suggested, on the other hand, she did not as often need to take several tries to get over a wave when working to windward in a sea. I would plan for a sloop or cutter, much as I am a fan of divided rigs for cruising boats. In this small size the mizzen gets in the way. More sails in the working rig means more time invested in getting under way and putting her to bed at the end of the voyage.

    How about these from Bill Garden, or the "Spice Island Cutter"( which I could not find a pic of)


    Last edited by gilberj; 01-27-2017 at 01:12 PM.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    My only experience is with a Stadel 20' gaff rigged sloop I built 25 years ago. Short, very heavy and very full keeled. In a good breeze, she sailed great. In light winds and choppy seas, she was a total dog. Just sat there and bobbed around, her gaff slapping back and forth. With that long full keel, she had the turning radius of a freight train, making maneuvering in the harbor a headache. As in the boat pictured in your original post, I put a mast tabernacle on my boat. That worked like a charm.
    One last thing I would mention is that your design has an awful lot of strings to pull. That might get tiresome after a while.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Having worked with Tony on several projects, my guess is that he'd look at cleaning up the underwater section and making it more efficient like he has done on several other traditional designs. The Tom Gillmer Blue Moon is the same length as the Atkin but adds another foot and a half of beam.
    http://www.woodenboat.com/boats-for-...yawl-new-price
    This is the one that the Apprenticeshop built, I believe. Two headsail rig.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Vernon Langille, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity and a quiver of unamed 'yaks.
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    I think I really like her, and after my first grousing about not enough sheer forward, I've come to think maybe I spoke too quickly. She might be a bit wet in a chop --but I wouldn't be surprised if she weren't either. Sometimes the bouyancy, CG, etc. all work together to get surprisingly dry results.

    I somehow didn't realize the photo wasn't a Little Dipper, but another design. Oops.

    Do you have a sail plan for her? Perhaps an original accomodations plan?

    Alex
    I haven't bought the plans yet Alex but the preview gives a modern sailplan.

    http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/LittleDipper.html
    Last edited by PeterSibley; 01-27-2017 at 03:23 PM.
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  5. #40
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I like it.

    Rick

  6. #41
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Thanks for the Holmes image Rob, not a bad contender at all !

    I have to admit that one of Little Dipper's primary appeals is the 5'9'' headroom in so small a boat.
    Last edited by PeterSibley; 01-27-2017 at 04:25 PM.
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  7. #42
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Rob, seeing you have introduced George Holmes lovely creations, here's another .http://www.canoeyawl.org/wp-content/...Yacht-0011.jpg

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  8. #43
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Getting back to Little Dipper .....

    I'd consider swapping the accommodation around, assuming that nice headroom extends to the full length of the cabin. I'd move the galley and nav area forward and put the pipe berths aft. That way the galley and nav areas stay drier and the berths are in a more comfortable spot. I actually don't mind sleeping forward but it's commonly regarded as uncomfortable. I do think having the service areas under the companionway hatch is impractical as everything gets sticky from spray, or worse. You might consider not having pipe berths too. You could have a berth in the cabin and half a v-berth forward. Use lee-cloths instead of trying to achieve sleeping accommodation on each side (overrated IMHO).

    I noted that the Vendee Globe sailors use bean bags for berths. I think that's a great idea, leaving various placement options. Just don't let one burst or have a dog on board .....

    Rick

  9. #44
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Hi Peter,

    Pardon the thread drift, but I'm curious. I noticed that you and our other non-American friends have been talking in feet and inches. Is that an accommodation for the Yanks in the crowd, is it because the Atkins specs are US, or are you bi-length-ual (like that?) and can switch easily between metric and imperial?

    Good luck with your decisions. Choice is good.

    Kenny

  10. #45
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quarter berths right aft appeal too, they're usually my preferred sleeping position.
    This is the Pardey's Serafyn's layout , it seems well worked out and in a similar sized ( if beamier) hull.

    Last edited by PeterSibley; 01-27-2017 at 08:43 PM.
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  11. #46
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by minuteman View Post
    Hi Peter,

    Pardon the thread drift, but I'm curious. I noticed that you and our other non-American friends have been talking in feet and inches. Is that an accommodation for the Yanks in the crowd, is it because the Atkins specs are US, or are you bi-length-ual (like that?) and can switch easily between metric and imperial?

    Good luck with your decisions. Choice is good.

    Kenny
    At my age I'm bilingual, the metric system was introduced to Australia in 1966. I do inches and feet or meters and millimeters as easily as each other. Talking to my fellow countrymen I use metric but with the predominantly American crowd here, feet and inches are more understandable to readers.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  12. #47
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    I think in this sort of size you will find the "down below" a problem when heeled over. No room to keep your feet under your body...no room for the upper body. This is interestingly less of a problem with sitting head-room.
    She will be wet in a seaway. Your top-sides and top of the bilge are nearly straight and vertical, when you heel over as waves break slightly on the side, the wind will lift some of the water up over, and into your lap.
    What happens when you have no wind and a large left over sea...I'd guess she will roll deeply and tirelessly.
    I'd want a little more form stability.

    After all the criticism, I am charmed by this design and Atkins Joan, which I have sailed on once briefly. In normal sailing they do not tend to roll and jump as much as some others. In a blow I think Joan was slower than her waterline suggested, on the other hand, she did not as often need to take several tries to get over a wave when working to windward in a sea. I would plan for a sloop or cutter, much as I am a fan of divided rigs for cruising boats. In this small size the mizzen gets in the way. More sails in the working rig means more time invested in getting under way and putting her to bed at the end of the voyage.

    How about these from Bill Garden, or the "Spice Island Cutter"( which I could not find a pic of)

    A very thought provoking post, thank you .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  13. #48
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I'll agree with Rick WRT the accommodation layout. I do not much like V berth in the eyes of the boat. Been there and done it, as it were. I have had an assortment of boats between 25 and 33' ( well bigger to but not part of this conversation). I have set up a full width berth in the main cabin, left the f'oc'sle for storage and what not. The main cabin has better motion whether sailing or at anchor in a blow. There is room for two comfortably, no mast in the way if you engage and board....
    Sometimes we sleep athwartships, sometimes fore and aft.
    In Whimbrel we have a big main cabin bed 6.5' x 8' can sleep three easily, which has allowed us to take a Grand child overnight, but mostly just m or the two of us.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I think in this sort of size you will find the "down below" a problem when heeled over. No room to keep your feet under your body...no room for the upper body. This is interestingly less of a problem with sitting head-room.
    That's a really good point; I hadn't considered that. And the designs you posted are lovely.

    I haven't bought the plans yet Alex but the preview gives a modern sailplan.
    The lines are the best part of her. As Bermudan rigs go, it isn't bad, but she ought to be gaff-headed. I agree with many here that there's a lot of room for improvement by shuffling the interior around --but that's the nice thing about interiors.

    Quarter berths right aft appeal too, they're usually my preferred sleeping position.
    You bet!

    Okay, so it's a canoe yawl, not a cutter, but I just came across this while perusing Holmes of the Humber.
    Ah jeeze. Time for me to buy another book...

    Alex

  15. #50
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    So having the galley aft because it gets wet and salty is bad but you would put your bed to the same conditions!

    No way. The galley is meant to be dripped on from the open companionway, your berth isn't.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Rob, seeing you have introduced George Holmes lovely creations, here's another .http://www.canoeyawl.org/wp-content/...Yacht-0011.jpg

    Peter, Gartside's 30ft schooner has this hull (minus the 'board) perhaps better as Scooter is less attenuated aft. A double ender and drawn for strip and veneer frameless construction, she might be re rigged from the Schooner shown if you preferred another rig. 4 tons. The hull shape of Scooter is very free of imposed distortion. Plan issued in Watercraft Sept/ Oct 16.

    http://store.gartsideboats.com/colle...ner-design-219

  17. #52
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    She's lovely Ed but without headroom, if there isn't headroom something smaller without headroom would be better.

    Thus my attraction to Little Dipper, headroom in a small but capable hull.
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  18. #53
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Only reason I posted Trent was the 5'6" headroom, and the firmer, shallower shape, but essentially the same boat. I am rather more a skimming dish type, I guess.

    Peace,
    Robert

  19. #54
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Peter, did the Fisher 25 ever make it out to Australia? Nothing like a wheelhouse...


  20. #55
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Trent is rather pleasant isn't she, a different type of boat but lovely. Are offsets available for Holmes designs ?
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  21. #56
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    No Ed, the Fisher isn't out here. A bit of a lump isn't she !
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  22. #57
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Peter, if you lived in the UK i'd tell you to save some time and to go and buy this...

    https://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=433954

    6ft headroom under the hatch. New engine. 22ft 4 ton grp Gartside cutter. The Oysterman's were really well made. Quite tempted myself, just its very expensive to keep a keel boat in the Solent now.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Agreed ! Just about prefect !
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  24. #59
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Is building important to you.
    If not then a cinder 22 or similar can be brought for pennies and a wooden top fitted? But perhaps the traditional boat market isnt as well developed in oz as it is in UK?
    But for many of us building is more than half the fun!
    James

  25. #60
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.


  26. #61
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesh View Post
    Is building important to you.
    If not then a cinder 22 or similar can be brought for pennies and a wooden top fitted? But perhaps the traditional boat market isnt as well developed in oz as it is in UK?
    But for many of us building is more than half the fun!
    James
    I could probably buy a Folkboat but as you suggest, I really enjoy building . I've built stuff all my life.... it's something of a habit .
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  27. #62
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Agreed ! Just about prefect !
    Not sure about the Holmes boats.
    I do rather like this one, though.

    Peace,
    Robert

  28. #63
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.


  29. #64
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Very very nice !!
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  30. #65
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Next time you've got some hours to spare in front of your computer surf on over here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDz...YXWHbbQ/videos
    They have toured, sailed and captured on video a number of boats in the size range you like. I think the videos really demonstrate how difficult achieving your desired headroom can be.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
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  31. #66
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Headroom is very rare in boats this size, 4'8'' is the norm for boats under 25' , that being the reason Little Dipper caught my eye. A slack bilge is essential to achieving that.

    That Youtube page could become addictive !
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  32. #67
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Me likey! if I ever owned a Cutter it would have to be plank on edge... but black topsides and white at/ below the waterline


  33. #68
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    This my only other serious contender, a Harrison Butler ''Yonne''. 26' and rather similar displacement . 5.5 ton versus Little Dipper at 5 ton.







    Last edited by PeterSibley; 01-29-2017 at 09:14 PM.
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  34. #69
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    This my only other serious contender, a Harrison Butler ''Yonne''. 26' and rather similar displacement . 5.5 ton versus Little Dipper at 5 ton.





    Done and done!

    Peace,
    Robert

  35. #70
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I've been going through a minimalist phase Rob, trying to find the smallest boat that would do the job.
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