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Thread: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

  1. #421
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    It's hard to believe that the Carrs, who sailed Curlew around the world engineless and picked up cruising and racing prizes along the way, were fools when they fitted battens and a roach to their little Falmouth Quay Punt.

    By the way, the other pic and the film in the thread from which the second pic from the left was apparently taken shows Hookers with battens in their mains.
    Last edited by Chris249; 04-05-2017 at 10:41 PM.

  2. #422
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I am a fan of William Atkin's Eel myself.



  3. #423
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    The cloak of invisibilty is strong with this one.... Must try and give it back to Fredzed
    LSD?

    Rick

  4. #424
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I am a fan of William Atkin's Eel myself.


    William Garden ?

    This Selway Fisher Kittiwake is rather pleasant too. http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yacht2024.htm#KITT



    Are you thinking of building Jeff ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  5. #425
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    It's hard to believe that the Carrs, who sailed Curlew around the world engineless and picked up cruising and racing prizes along the way, were fools when they fitted battens and a roach to their little Falmouth Quay Punt.

    By the way, the other pic and the film in the thread from which the second pic from the left was apparently taken shows Hookers with battens in their mains.

    it's simply a philosophical and asthetic choice...you asked why not battens and roach...simply, because they are in no way necessary or traditional to the essence of the small craft Sibley is choosing to copy...simple as that, no one is a fool for using or not using battens... just that some people think less is more and some are not content with a traditional design and endlesly tweaking to make it "better"

    love this image!

  6. #426
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    it's simply a philosophical and asthetic choice...you asked why not battens and roach...simply, because they are in no way necessary or traditional to the essence of the small craft Sibley is choosing to copy...simple as that, no one is a fool for using or not using battens... just that some people think less is more and some are not content with a traditional design and endlesly tweaking to make it "better"

    love this image!


    I suppose the whom reason Peter is having a new design done is because he wants something a little better (for him) than all the traditional existing designs that are similar.

    Who can own any boat and not want to tweak it to make it better? sure, there are lots of things done on modern boats that if applied to a full keel, deep, gaff rig yawl would not make it better. but, even with that caves, there always seem like endless opportunities to make any boat better. That's part of the fun.

  7. #427
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    It's hard to believe that the Carrs, who sailed Curlew around the world engineless and picked up cruising and racing prizes along the way, were fools when they fitted battens and a roach to their little Falmouth Quay Punt.

    By the way, the other pic and the film in the thread from which the second pic from the left was apparently taken shows Hookers with battens in their mains.
    They needed as much sail power as possible being engineless. Yes it did make a difference to Curlews performance. That "difference" might not be that important to some people. Certainly some of the locals in Falmouth didnt like it, but they were not the ones drifting off the rocky coast of South Georgia in an engineless punt.

  8. #428
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    technology moves on, vertical cut sails were eclipsed by cross cut shortly after that photo was taken, cotton was eclipsed by dacron, dacron by various exotics, then 3 dl , now 3di. The guy I was talking to about 3di got my attention when he mentioned they were largely impervious to UV. Important to people who use boats, tired of putting on a sailcover thousands of times, important to people who sail boats without motors and who need that sail up in an instant should the need arise.Might be an attribute and sail material to adapt into classic form...For example.
    I had my mainsail double seamed to mimic the narrow cloths of my 1907 boat and also the battens she had from new in 1907. There is no issue with furling battened sails when its correct. Best I found is reef battens should be parallel to the foot and top batten needs to be perpendicular to the luff. The top batten will not let the sail furl if it matches the foot.
    The challenge with a gaff sail is to get a decent exit, its always interesting to me how good bermudan sailmakers often seem to muck that up, I've seen it many times. One prestige boat I sailed on had a leech hooked up a foot, like an airbrake on a plane....battens help control that. But too much roach on a gaff sail also upsets the balance between the lower triangle and upper triangle, a bit like short boom foresails on schooners, which then need vangs to control twist. Too much roach and the top twists off more than it should , so getting that balance of some roach for the undisputed performance gains you acheive, versus a sail that just dumps off because it has too much , is the trick. I think that cutter rig main has too much.

    Someone let me know if you see this post
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    Last edited by John B; 04-06-2017 at 03:56 PM.

  9. #429
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    /\

    I can see it, and it's a good one.

  10. #430
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    That is a good post, Mr. Invisible.

    A question, though: what are 3dl and 3di? In case it wasn't glaringly obvious from my earlier posts, I'm afraid I'm rather behind the times on sail technology. I thought dacron (or maybe Oceanus, if you've got a big enough boat) was still cutting edge tech for those who set gaff rig.

    And thank you, Peter, for starting a thread that has had such wonderful and wide-ranging exploration of all things cutter (and yawl).

    Alex

  11. #431
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Heh heh.. don't tell me the cloak of invisibilty is actually thinning out( insert smilething here)
    3dl sails are cast sails made on a mould. as far as I understand it. The bees knees in the Americas cup a decade or 2 back. A sail made without seams to disrupt airflow and to a perfect modeled shape to get the result wanted.
    3di is just the latest iteration of that out of some new wonder material which is stable in UV. I expect that as time goes on they will become economic for mortals. Imagine that , no degradation through UV.. the killer of sails.

    of any value or use to the average cruising yachtsman right now? probably not ,but something to watch as time goes on.
    As I've said before , the really neat thing that is happening now is the advances in technology that allow the evolution or devolution back to old skills and methods.
    I was looking at a racing tri converted to cruising. it has 'rope ' stays and deadeyes, and bulls eyes on lanyards as sheet leads.
    all spectra/ exotic type stuff beautifully spliced and served. Just fantastic.
    There's plenty or room to pick and choose new technology that totally suits a classic boat.

  12. #432
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I agree!

    With all the bits I understand.

    Rick

  13. #433
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    It will be interesting to see what happens with 3di, 3dl known as "3 day life" in its early years) and other "string" or "membrane" sails. As John says, they are sort of a plastic film that is laid over a mould so they take up their true shape when they are formed. The next clever thing is that strings of carbon etc are then laid over the film to take the sail loads. Because any number of strings can be laid over any curve, they can run exactly in accordance with the structural loads on the sail. AIUI single string may run from the tack in a curve to the middle of the sail and then to the head or foot, and you have hundreds such strings. It makes a light, tear-resistant and very stable sail.

    Although string sails don't look traditional, I find they work brilliantly as headsails on my cold moulded 28' lightweight racer/cruiser. With older sails, you spend a lot of time winding on forestay, halyard and sheet tension as the wind increases because you are trying to combat the stretch in the sails. My carbon "string" headsails have the shape pretty much just locked in. As the wind picks up the sail just stays pretty much the same depth instead of either blowing into a bag or causing higher rigging loads as you try to stretch it back flat. We carry the same sails from 0 to about 25 knots, going fast all the time.

    In years to come they may come up with a traditional-looking "string" or "membrane" sail and we can spend less time winding stressful loads into our classic boats, and less time changing sails when it's inconvenient.

  14. #434
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Have a looks at This https://youtu.be/SZTIu9F3_rA

  15. #435
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by WAGrunter View Post
    Have a looks at This https://youtu.be/SZTIu9F3_rA
    Very nice indeed !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  16. #436
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    Heh heh.. don't tell me the cloak of invisibilty is actually thinning out( insert smilething here)
    3dl sails are cast sails made on a mould. as far as I understand it. The bees knees in the Americas cup a decade or 2 back. A sail made without seams to disrupt airflow and to a perfect modeled shape to get the result wanted.
    3di is just the latest iteration of that out of some new wonder material which is stable in UV. I expect that as time goes on they will become economic for mortals. Imagine that , no degradation through UV.. the killer of sails.

    of any value or use to the average cruising yachtsman right now? probably not ,but something to watch as time goes on.
    As I've said before , the really neat thing that is happening now is the advances in technology that allow the evolution or devolution back to old skills and methods.
    I was looking at a racing tri converted to cruising. it has 'rope ' stays and deadeyes, and bulls eyes on lanyards as sheet leads.
    all spectra/ exotic type stuff beautifully spliced and served. Just fantastic.
    There's plenty or room to pick and choose new technology that totally suits a classic boat.
    my point exactly... so why pick a unnecessary tech that looks a little "off" on a trad design?
    why not put kevlar specrta 3DI sails on a deep draught english styled Cutter?

    because they are not necessary, they are not an improvement to that design... simple as that... I mentioned the battens and roach because I feel they detract from idea of the design and add nothing... so why add them?

    some people chaffe against simplicity... but I find in design more often than not simplicity is what makes a design great and is one of the most difficult aesthetics to achieve, things always get more complicated, better to start simple.
    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 04-07-2017 at 06:47 AM.

  17. #437
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Biggest issues with film sails are reefing and ironically stable shapes at least in the main. Film does not reef tradionally very well and indeed when reefed some of the built in shaping goes away. It also can't be tweaked the way cloth can to flatten the sail the way we do with gaffers or bendy masts. With head sails which get shifted when the breeze comes up its different as we don't reshape them.

    Battens, especially full battens can be really nice, add much to the longevity of the sails. For racing gaffers like Sonder boats full battens came along in the 30s and indeed they may have been used back with half raters and the like, I just don't remember. The tricky bit for full battens is organizing things with the battens at the gaff, assuming they run parallel to the boom.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Vernon Langille, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity and a quiver of unamed 'yaks.
    "Bound fast is boatless man."

  18. #438

    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    +1 for (full) battens:
    ..they tame the sail
    ..help stow the sail in lazyjacks
    ..make a more manageable bundle to move around
    ..more.......

    And at the gaff ... use short battens radiating from the throat ... or go the traditional batwing style which predates the modern "fat head" style.

  19. #439
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    It's all down to Peter S. As it is his project.
    Daniel makes noise (pardon the small pun), ( I actually don't disagree with you, rather I honour you).
    Others are recommending battens of some description.
    I have sailed on boats with no battens for decades. The sails worked, but as time went on the leach curled... the sails still drove the boat, but with clearly less efficiency.
    Battens were introduced to improve efficiency, probably in older sails. I would include battens... full length battens I think, on my sails.
    I totally accept another man's choice. If Peter would rather not mess with battens....it is OK....it is his build....
    I am unlikely to take on a building project of this scale. If I decided to buy a boat like the subject vessel, changing the sails would be a low priority.

  20. #440
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    It seems batten pockets would be a good first step, if the battens are required as the sails age, the pockets are already there.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  21. #441
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    And there she is without the pram - nice!
    Return of the pram. If it's of interest, here's a useful blog entry-

    http://dory-man.blogspot.com/2016/12...-pram.html?m=1

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