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Thread: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

  1. #1
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    Default (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    William Atkin's Little Dipper. I'm interested in building another boat, a decked yacht this time with the aim of a bit of cruising, mainly along shore but with ocean crossing potential should the desire arise. I want a little boat but with headroom if possible, I don't need much headroom and Little Dipper gives 5'9''.... sufficient. Something I could live on comfortably for a month or 3 would be good.

    She's 23 foot x 7 foot beam x 4 foot draft. Probably about 4 ton displacement. Slack bilged but with a substantial ballast keel , 3600 lb.

    I'd build strip planked with diagonal veneer overlays and likely gaff rig her somewhat like this.

    A design proposal by Antonio Dias,



    Little Dipper's lines.



    One in Australia.

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  2. #2
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Nice boat- should be good at sea as well as when up a creek relaxing.
    PeterW

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    A deep creek!
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    The title begs the question though - is there a little cutter you don't like? Heh. She's a cutie, for sure. I've seen that Diaz posted by you before and that looks lovely too.

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    The Diaz drawing is just a proposal, no plan drawing exists, but a subtle combination of the two appeals .
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Any comments or criticisms by the panel are welcome.
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Any comments or criticisms by the panel are welcome.
    Lovely easy curves and a pretty transom. You could steal another inch or so of headroom by increasing the crown of the cabin trunk top.
    The topsides look a bit slabby in the photo. A rub rail built in, or a thicker shear strake picked out in a different colour could sort that.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I think the sheer from the little yawl would be good, a little more forward, but she has a nice fair buttock run.
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I think the sheer from the little yawl would be good, a little more forward, but she has a nice fair buttock run.
    Just so.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    The Diaz drawing is just a proposal, no plan drawing exists, but a subtle combination of the two appeals .
    Peter, I have a boat designed by Tony, have been very pleased with it since it was launched 13 years ago.

    I think the three head sails are a bit much, each one must be very small. How do you plan on handling the tiller with respect to the mizzen mast? I would consider a inboard rudder.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I like her alot. I headroom would be tight. I can't see the topsides being slabby. Not like mine will be! But that's the choice you make to get interior space!
    Painted her in black paint before undercoat and top coat. Epoxy cloth on bottom only. Sheer is stronger than it looks


  12. #12
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Has a bit of Harrison Butler about her? rather like a Z 4 tonner? Why not build one of these?!
    http://www.classicsailingclub.com/html/NW%20history.htm

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.


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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I like Little Dipper's lines quite well, but I think I'd want to see more sheer forward. I don't think the photo is very good, though.

    For Dias's design, I think Peb may be right that the three headsails might be breaking up the foretriangle too much, but it might be okay, too. I won't say the sails are too small. Everyone looks at Bucephalus's little yard topsail and laughs, but the silly thing pulls like crazy.

    The complaints that leap to mind when I look at the photo are:

    1) It looks like you're perched up quite high, sitting on flush decks with that much topsides, which might not be as secure/comfortable in rough weather. It also moves the boom higher, which I find unattractive, and moves the CE higher, which I don't think improves the motion of the boat. This is, of course, the trade off for a small, self-bailing well in a small boat, but it's a detail I like to see mitigated as much as possible.

    2) I have a personal grumble about cockpit coamings that trail off as they run aft and don't enclose the aft end of the cockpit --but that's a personal preference and a detail that you could do differently on your own boat if you so chose.

    Was that the full "two cents"? I think so. Let me know if I shorted you.

    Alex

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Agree with the sheer and the cockpit not much to keep even spray from wetting your pants! Looks like she could be quite wet with a heavy displacement and not much flare to forward topsides, a chop would have her sending spray back aft.

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    William Atkin's Little Dipper. I'm interested in building another boat, a decked yacht this time with the aim of a bit of cruising, mainly along shore but with ocean crossing potential should the desire arise. I want a little boat but with headroom if possible, I don't need much headroom and Little Dipper gives 5'9''.... sufficient. Something I could live on comfortably for a month or 3 would be good.

    She's 23 foot x 7 foot beam x 4 foot draft. Probably about 4 ton displacement. Slack bilged but with a substantial ballast keel , 3600 lb.

    I'd build strip planked with diagonal veneer overlays and likely gaff rig her somewhat like this.

    A design proposal by Antonio Dias,



    Little Dipper's lines.



    One in Australia.

    Somewhat similar to Gilmer's "Blue Moon"

  17. #17
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Peter, I'm with you in liking the type, but I think that Little Dipper is a bit too deep for her beam, or perhaps too narrow for her depth. I'd like to see maybe another 8-10 in of beam on her. I think she would end up stiffer and be a better sailor for it. Interior space would improve as well.

    I agree with the comments about the shallow cockpit. I'd want much higher coamings or much lower seats.

    Norm

  18. #18
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I've got to agree that she is so narrow that I bet she sails on her ear. I would guess the Diaz design has more beam.

    If it were me, I'd go for a little more beam, a little less draft and sacrifice standing headroom. Do you really need it? Going 6-8" shallower would ease the butt lines and dig less of a hole at speed. More beam will give more power to stand up to the rig when there is a bad chop going to weather.

    Huge fan of the yawl rig, but would lean toward two headsails instead of three on such a small boat as others have said.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Peter, I have a boat designed by Tony, have been very pleased with it since it was launched 13 years ago.

    I think the three head sails are a bit much, each one must be very small. How do you plan on handling the tiller with respect to the mizzen mast? I would consider a inboard rudder.

    The three head sails gives flexibility but could be reduced to 2. A cunningly curved tiller, wood or steel, would solve that problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    I like Little Dipper's lines quite well, but I think I'd want to see more sheer forward. I don't think the photo is very good, though.

    For Dias's design, I think Peb may be right that the three headsails might be breaking up the foretriangle too much, but it might be okay, too. I won't say the sails are too small. Everyone looks at Bucephalus's little yard topsail and laughs, but the silly thing pulls like crazy.

    The complaints that leap to mind when I look at the photo are:

    1) It looks like you're perched up quite high, sitting on flush decks with that much topsides, which might not be as secure/comfortable in rough weather. It also moves the boom higher, which I find unattractive, and moves the CE higher, which I don't think improves the motion of the boat. This is, of course, the trade off for a small, self-bailing well in a small boat, but it's a detail I like to see mitigated as much as possible.

    Details like cockpit depth and coaming height are open to personal modification I feel.


    2) I have a personal grumble about cockpit coamings that trail off as they run aft and don't enclose the aft end of the cockpit --but that's a personal preference and a detail that you could do differently on your own boat if you so chose.

    Was that the full "two cents"? I think so. Let me know if I shorted you.

    Alex
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesh View Post
    Agree with the sheer and the cockpit not much to keep even spray from wetting your pants! Looks like she could be quite wet with a heavy displacement and not much flare to forward topsides, a chop would have her sending spray back aft.
    Jamesh, forgive me for not knowing but what is the boat in the photo?

    Quote Originally Posted by outofthenorm View Post
    Peter, I'm with you in liking the type, but I think that Little Dipper is a bit too deep for her beam, or perhaps too narrow for her depth. I'd like to see maybe another 8-10 in of beam on her. I think she would end up stiffer and be a better sailor for it. Interior space would improve as well.
    Increasing the buttock spacings ? That's a significant modification! I'd be better going to a Harrison Butler, the other close contender.

    I agree with the comments about the shallow cockpit. I'd want much higher coamings or much lower seats.

    Norm
    Thanks all.
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I cannot see any reason to go below 8ft beam for a pocket cruiser? Trailer max as it were!
    Its my own design. What happens when you cross a farne islander with a Welsford penguin! A mongrel of a boat!
    Planking is 2"x3/4" fir on a 3/4" wisa ply base board. Ironically the only wood to cause me grief has been the ext ply I used for the coach house lol!
    James
    Last edited by Jamesh; 01-27-2017 at 01:02 AM.

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I think you need to consider where you'll be cruising. Most of the time on our (your) coast, you're sailing in NE or SE wind, which means there's always swell and it's usually fairly sloppy. I agree with the comments re getting the cockpit lower and more protected but not with the suggestions to widen it. If anything, I'd like a narrower design as it will be more seaworthy. Little fat boats are very uncomfortable in a sloppy seaway, tend to have excessive weather helm. The shallow draft is great for exploring rivers but a little more ballast down there will allow you to keep a bit more sail where you want it, and pointed where you want to go. Sailing on your ear can be uncomfortable but sailing on each ear, hour after hour, is really tiresome. If you plan to go south, you don't want something that blows along sideways, either, and you do want to be able to surf it across the bars when called for.

    Rick

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I've been rereading this thread, quite relevant regarding the slack bilged hull shape. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ie-Michon-quot
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Yes, slack bilges and a reasonably narrow profile if you want seaworthiness and relative comfort, without tooooo much draft, on our coast.

    Rick

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Yes, slack bilges and a reasonably narrow profile if you want seaworthiness and relative comfort, without tooooo much draft, on our coast.

    Rick
    Agreed, I hope we are correct but Ed Burnett agreed too. Ed.....

    ''As for the disadvantages of the type, well, in my view at least you need ample draught to make them work, so we may have identified compromise issue no. 1! Slack bilges give you good volume low down for internal ballast and a broad cabin sole, but with this sort of midsection you do end up with an interior that is a bit like a railway carriage. The slack bilge leads to a relatively low centre of buoyancy, which is one of the contributing factors to stability, and as with any relatively narrow boat, power to carry sail becomes a big issue which means you really need to work on getting the centre of gravity good and low. Follow this type of hull to the extreme and you end up with the sort of plank on edge cutters that were encouraged by Thames tonnage measurement. Not exactly the most effective sailing boats ever devised.''
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  25. #25
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I think it would be hard to beat this for the $. https://www.woodenboat.com/boats-for...23-arctic-tern

  26. #26

    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Hello Peter. Little Dipper is one of my favorite vest pocket cruisers. I would never attempt to build a boat like this, but from what I have seen I believe you could pull it off and do it well. I am far from an authority on design, but I do know that boats with narrow beam, substantial displacement, and reasonably deep (but not excessive) draft tend to travel well up and down wind in all conditions. Regardless of what I or anyone else thinks, the best person to decide which boat you should build is you. You have put enough water under your keel to know what works in your cruising grounds and meets your preferences. Best of luck my friend. - John

  27. #27
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Thank you John, she looks about right.... not too big and quite capable .
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    If you were to cut off the overhangs off a contessa or a folkboat, you would have a similar length / beam ratio.
    Both of which go well upwind. Accomodation is the only real negative.

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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Hi Peter,
    Have a look at the book, "Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor", by C.A. Marchaj. It's more than I need in technical detail but it has good discussions of the behaviour of light or heavy, deep & narrow, shallow and wide, boats.
    Ian

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  30. #30
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    I think there's a lot more room below than aboard a Folkboat !
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Quote Originally Posted by IanMilne View Post
    Hi Peter,
    Have a look at the book, "Seaworthiness, The Forgotten Factor", by C.A. Marchaj. It's more than I need in technical detail but it has good discussions of the behaviour of light or heavy, deep & narrow, shallow and wide, boats.
    Ian

    Yes, a very good suggestion Ian. I just found a copy online but I can't buy it at the moment, my credit card has been used by someone other than me and I've stopped it for a while ..... but as soon as I can I'll buy a copy. My library doesn't have it.
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  32. #32
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    ...[Little Dipper] looks about right.... not too big and quite capable...
    I think I really like her, and after my first grousing about not enough sheer forward, I've come to think maybe I spoke too quickly. She might be a bit wet in a chop --but I wouldn't be surprised if she weren't either. Sometimes the bouyancy, CG, etc. all work together to get surprisingly dry results.

    I somehow didn't realize the photo wasn't a Little Dipper, but another design. Oops.

    Do you have a sail plan for her? Perhaps an original accomodations plan?

    Alex

  33. #33
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.


    Okay, so it's a canoe yawl, not a cutter, but I just came across this while perusing Holmes of the Humber.
    Gosh, I just think she's wonderful.

    Peace,
    Robert

  34. #34
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Looks familiar
    Steve

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  35. #35
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    Default Re: (Another) little cutter I quite like.

    Little dipper is sure lovely. Just build her to the plans and you'll be doing better than almost anybody else.

    Better get started!

    I see the appeal, a real boat that is easy to plank, easy to handle, low(er) investment. I lack self control so I'd be lengthening slightly and adding some beam until I ended up with something like Ben Bow. Maybe you're made of sterner stuff.

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